Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

drlodge

Ernesider, I would start with the rim - what are you looking for... light/alloy or aero? That would point us in the direction of shallower alloy rims or deeper carbon rims. I always start with the rim, then go for suitable hubs and spokes to complement your rim preference and wallet.

FWIW I always go handbuilt, Ugo had built me 2 pairs of wheels before. I recently looked at TheCycleclinic, DCR Wheels and Wheelsmith. Went for TCC in the end as they had a wheel that suited my preferences and wallet perfectly.

keef66

Ernesider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Found this article, very interesting and not too lengthy or technical

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/mavic/1008/mav ... amechanger

Ok Ugo time to name and acclaim ..!!

It is wheel buying time for me and as the number one advocate of hand built wheels on these pages
I would like you to suggest a build to match or surpass the Dura Ace 9000 C24 in General cycling and climbing
At a competitive price.

Also i would like a reliable wheel builder(s) recommended to do the job ..!!

Look in the classifieds on here. Somebody is selling some Archetypes on Dura-Ace hubs. Look to be in pretty good condition judging by the photos. I'll see if I can find them and post a link.

ETA viewtopic.php?f=40091&t=13068415

They look a bargain to me! And no, it's not me selling them

ugo.santalucia

Ernesider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Found this article, very interesting and not too lengthy or technical

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/mavic/1008/mav ... amechanger

Ok Ugo time to name and acclaim ..!!

It is wheel buying time for me and as the number one advocate of hand built wheels on these pages
I would like you to suggest a build to match or surpass the Dura Ace 9000 C24 in General cycling and climbing
At a competitive price.

Also i would like a reliable wheel builder(s) recommended to do the job ..!!

The more I cycle, the less I believe you can make a significant difference with components.

Yes, there is the glamour of Tour de France smooth roads that climb at a steady 7% and you can roll up your arm warmers for the descent before a quick check at your stats, whilst gliding on the most perfect tarmac the world has ever experienced... and the sun is a reliable yellow ball high up in the blue blue sky.

It's not my recollection of reality though... more likely you have to battle a 25 mph wind that comes from different directions depending on how the road winds, negotiate your way up an 18% narrow section, while a car is coming down and you have to choose between broken tarmac collapsing to the edge of the road or a foot down (luckily I am often on big tyres)... the gradient is ever changing and you go from 17T to 28 T and back down in sequence several times, as you make your way up. There is no elegant change of pace after the hairpin a la Charlie Gaul, as that's always where the road steepens and the tarmac is the most broken... it's more survival than attack. Then you get to the top and you are rewarded with a brief glance towards the horizon below... that before it gets too cold and you struggle to fit a windproof in the raging gale...

That's France, this is Britain

Now, what was the question again? Ah... wheels for climbing, yeah, right...

shamrock134

I'm after some new single-speed wheels for my commuter and spotted these online...



What do you guys reckon to some "barely used" 36H Ambrosio Excellence rims built on Miche Primato hubs for £110? Not sure what spokes.

Good deal?

marpick

Won't comment on the wheels, but that carpet, heavens........

nachetetm

Hi to everyone,
This is my first post in the forum after many months reading it, where I found plenty of useful information for my next bicycle project.

Here is a little bit of my story. I am moving to the french Bretagne and I'm very excited by the cicling opportunities the place has to offer. The fact is that I am planning to order a custom made bike, and audax/grand fondo style with mudguards for the rainy days and room for 700x28c tyres (with the mudguards on). I am planning to ride distances between 50 to 80 kms and sometimes weekend, light touring trips. My main goal for this bike is to be comfortable and versatile, even if that detracts a bit from the reactivity and eagerness a race road bike has. I don't want a faster and more rigid bike, but one that is comfortable for long distances without being slouch. Among the many decisions I need to take one of them is what pair of wheels I'm going to buy (for clincher tires). Initially I was going for Campy Zonda C17 but then i realize that custom handbuilt wheels are perhaps a better option for my requirements. At this point I need some help, as I get lost with all the variety available. My needs are:
-Wide rim
-Tubeless ready
-300 pounds budget
-Preferably (and this is the difficult part) silver
-Around 1600 to 1700g (if possible)

I am willing to give up a bit of rigidity to gain in compliance, but to be honest I am confused with this as some people say that vertical compliance cannot be appreciated in a bicycle wheel, while others say the contrary. In the same direction, I'm also willing to give up on aero if that means the wheel absorbs better the bumps and road imperfections. I weight 82 kgs, not featherweight but not too lardy either.

Initially though was on Velocity A23 wheels and Miche Primato Synthesi hubs, all silver, but I'm hearing not so nice things about those particular rims. I do not like much the look of the polished Archetypes and rims that I find ideal like the Kinlin XR-22T does not have a silver option, at least to my knowledge.

What are your expert suggestions guys? All input will be appreciated.

ugo.santalucia

nachetetm wrote:

Hi to everyone,
This is my first post in the forum after many months reading it, where I found plenty of useful information for my next bicycle project.

Here is a little bit of my story. I am moving to the french Bretagne and I'm very excited by the cicling opportunities the place has to offer. The fact is that I am planning to order a custom made bike, and audax/grand fondo style with mudguards for the rainy days and room for 700x28c tyres (with the mudguards on). I am planning to ride distances between 50 to 80 kms and sometimes weekend, light touring trips. My main goal for this bike is to be comfortable and versatile, even if that detracts a bit from the reactivity and eagerness a race road bike has. I don't want a faster and more rigid bike, but one that is comfortable for long distances without being slouch. Among the many decisions I need to take one of them is what pair of wheels I'm going to buy (for clincher tires). Initially I was going for Campy Zonda C17 but then i realize that custom handbuilt wheels are perhaps a better option for my requirements. At this point I need some help, as I get lost with all the variety available. My needs are:
-Wide rim
-Tubeless ready
-300 pounds budget
-Preferably (and this is the difficult part) silver
-Around 1600 to 1700g (if possible)

I am willing to give up a bit of rigidity to gain in compliance, but to be honest I am confused with this as some people say that vertical compliance cannot be appreciated in a bicycle wheel, while others say the contrary. In the same direction, I'm also willing to give up on aero if that means the wheel absorbs better the bumps and road imperfections. I weight 82 kgs, not featherweight but not too lardy either.

Initially though was on Velocity A23 wheels and Miche Primato Synthesi hubs, all silver, but I'm hearing not so nice things about those particular rims. I do not like much the look of the polished Archetypes and rims that I find ideal like the Kinlin XR-22T does not have a silver option, at least to my knowledge.

What are your expert suggestions guys? All input will be appreciated.

There is really nothing wrong with the A 23. Being pin joined, they don't have the roundest possible profile, but you will never notice and will never know. Builders like to use precision gauges to measure roundness and as they see a 0.5 mm bump they get all flustered, but really... will you ever notice a 0.5 mm bump in the rim as you ride? The answer is no... I have built, owned and ridden a pair of A 23 and they were absolutely fine and very robust.

I seem to recall there is a silver version of the Pacenti SL 23, but I have never seen them in the UK... besides, if you like to thrash your wheels and jump kerbs, the A 23 are tough as a nail, the Pacenti are not

MikeBrew

I do not like much the look of the polished Archetypes and rims that I find ideal like the Kinlin XR-22T does not have a silver option, at least to my knowledge.

These are available in silver in the UK, as is the silver Pacenti SL 23.

cycleclinic

The issue with the A23 is not a bump at the join. Many rims have a roundness of 0.5 or 0.6mm. The problem is inconsistancy in the tension limit. I had a pair that went all wobbley at 1100N and that was on a park guage so it was probably less. This was a good while back now but I gave up on them after that. The drilling swarf trapped in the rim that took ages to shake out was another problem. Sometimes you thought you had it all out and send the wheels off and then get a call..... Never again.

The V1 Pacenti rims where available in silver. Not very popular though had a set for 2 years before I flogged them cheap.
For silver you have the H plus Son Archetype and the H Plus Son TB14. Those are the two best silver rims available at present for rim brakes.

nachetetm

Many thanks for the responses.
For one or another reason, I am not very keen on the H plus son rims. The archetype has too hight profile to look "classic", while I find the TB14 wheels a bit too heavy. It is not clear to me either whether they are tubeless ready or not.
The Kinlin XR-22T will be perfect if, as MikeBrew says, can be found in silver. I like the profile, is wider and lighter than most of the ones we are speaking about and and among the cheapest.

What would be the suggestion for a rigid but comfortable wheel according my weight (82kg)? 24/28 spokes? And what spoke crossing?

cycleclinic

put the idea on spoke count affecting ride comfort in the bin where they belong.

24F/28R will be fine. The H plus son rims can be run tubeless. You can run the Mavic Open Pro tubeless. If you can get the tyres on they can be run tubeless in general if the fit is tight enough for a seal to develop.

Again crossing is personal taste. I do radial front and 2x rear but 2x front and 3x rear would work equally well. again put all notions that lacing pattern makes a real difference to ride quality in the bin. There is marginal effect on spoke life (i.e tension changes during each revolution of the wheel) but so marginal you will never get to find out what the effect is.

What makes a difference to ride comfort is
bead to bead distance of the tyre i.e how big it is
rim internal width the wider the bigger the air volume that result up to a point.
Rim bead hook depth again the deeper the bead hook the less the tyre spreads and smaller the air volume
tyre carcass construction
air pressure used.
Rim stiffness not that relevant
Spoke crossing not relevant
Spoke guage barley relevant
spoke material may have some effect but since most wheels use steel spoke not that relevent.
Often difference between ride comfort of different wheels can be due enitrely due to the air volume a particular tyre has on the two different rims due to difference in internal width and bead hook depth. Spoke and rim are second order variables to ride comfort and cant change it much at all.

nachetetm

thecycleclinic wrote:

put the idea on spoke count affecting ride comfort in the bin where they belong.

24F/28R will be fine. The H plus son rims can be run tubeless. You can run the Mavic Open Pro tubeless. If you can get the tyres on they can be run tubeless in general if the fit is tight enough for a seal to develop.

Again crossing is personal taste. I do radial front and 2x rear but 2x front and 3x rear would work equally well. again put all notions that lacing pattern makes a real difference to ride quality in the bin. There is marginal effect on spoke life (i.e tension changes during each revolution of the wheel) but so marginal you will never get to find out what the effect is.

What makes a difference to ride comfort is
bead to bead distance of the tyre i.e how big it is
rim internal width the wider the bigger the air volume that result up to a point.
Rim bead hook depth again the deeper the bead hook the less the tyre spreads and smaller the air volume
tyre carcass construction
air pressure used.
Rim stiffness not that relevant
Spoke crossing not relevant
Spoke guage barley relevant
spoke material may have some effect but since most wheels use steel spoke not that relevent.
Often difference between ride comfort of different wheels can be due enitrely due to the air volume a particular tyre has on the two different rims due to difference in internal width and bead hook depth. Spoke and rim are second order variables to ride comfort and cant change it much at all.

That's exactly the kind of reply I was looking for after reading so many contradictory comments and reviews online.
I think I have pretty much clear now what will fit my build.
Thanks!! It has been very helpful.

iPete

I saw Ugo post somewhere about Farsports being UCI legal now. Tempted by some 38x25 clinchers, shame he's not around to build them.

ugo.santalucia

iPete wrote:

I saw Ugo post somewhere about Farsports being UCI legal now. Tempted by some 38x25 clinchers, shame he's not around to build them.

Yep. Some are... the wheels though

To be fair, the build quality of Farsport wheels is pretty good, the spokes are top notch (they are distributors for Sapim) and you can choose between a range of hubs...
If you don't mind their terrible spelling by email, it is easier to just get the wheels.

ugo.santalucia

A few thoughts about 30 mm alloy rims

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/08/21/t ... vs-kinlin/

cycleclinic

quote a fair desription I think of the two rims. I will be taking to kinlin at euro bike as I have idea on a rim. the XR31T can be improved and it is the rim profile that needs to change.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

quote a fair desription I think of the two rims. I will be taking to kinlin at euro bike as I have idea on a rim. the XR31T can be improved and it is the rim profile that needs to change.

I suspect low weight and triangular profile are hard to separate. As you widen the shape to make it more aero, you compromise the strength and need extra material to make it structurally sound. That Dutch guy on Weightweenies seems to have cracked the nut, but for what we know his rims might disintegrate, once you load them with 120 Kg per hole

marin_maniac

ugo.santalucia wrote:

A few thoughts about 30 mm alloy rims

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/08/21/t ... vs-kinlin/

Good read that, along with some of the other articles

The ghetto tubeless was very interesting. Would it be possible to make my Kinlin Xc279 rims into tubeless with Conti GP4000S clinchers?

ugo.santalucia

Marin Maniac wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

A few thoughts about 30 mm alloy rims

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/08/21/t ... vs-kinlin/

Good read that, along with some of the other articles

The ghetto tubeless was very interesting. Would it be possible to make my Kinlin Xc279 rims into tubeless with Conti GP4000S clinchers?

I would advise against... IMO a non tubeless tyre shouldn't be used tubeless at more than 60-70 PSI. However, I have read on Italian forums folks succeeding with road tyres and 90 PSI, which seems to be the max pressure one can safely use before the tyre pops off the rim in the absence of an inner tube.

I stand by my 60 PSI tried and tested, which means no chance for a small tyre like the GP4000

marin_maniac

Ironically I use 70/60psi (back/front) in my Conti 25mm using tubes. Sounds to me like its worth a punt!

tom3

Anyone used the new miche primato hubs for 2016? Supposed to be much quicker engagement so wondered how they' would fair against dura ace hubs. I appreciate they won't perform as well but the Miche are in budget with the same rim.

drlodge

Malcolm just built me a set of tubeless BORG50s with Miche Primato hubs, so presume they're the "2016" hubs you mention.

I can't say if they "engage" better or worse than other hubs, but they seem to do what is expected from a hub! Can't see a reason to spend more to be honest, and I have more expensive Hope and Campagnolo Record hubs on other wheels.

tom3

You'll know if the decals on the hub wrap around vertically rather than across the hub.

drlodge

tom3 wrote:

You'll know if the decals on the hub wrap around vertically rather than across the hub.

If you mean the embossed "Primato" logo, it goes across the hub rather than wrap around.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

tom3 wrote:

You'll know if the decals on the hub wrap around vertically rather than across the hub.

If you mean the embossed "Primato" logo, it goes across the hub rather than wrap around.

That style of wooden floor is so very Italian...

drlodge

Yes it is, its the original parquet flooring from 1958. We'll be keeping it in the hallway as its very tough and hard wearing.

tom3

Yep, they're the old ones which I actually already have. Just wondered if in the real world the new version are better.

ugo.santalucia

New ones here, looks like they have made some subtle improvements to the freehub, which were needed

https://www.micheuk.com/posts/read/63/e ... -Hubs-2016

lostboysaint

But I don't want noise free! I like my Miche hubs ticking away nicely. (I prefer my LOUD Hope Pro 2 and 4!)

cycleclinic

Miche told me the 2016 hub is the samd ss the 2015 hub. Thd freehubs thst i have revievdd look thd same as they always have.
The ratchet ring may have 30t now i have not counted. The front axle is alloy i think as the axle kits for the hubs now have an alloy front axle.

The miche freehub is quite reliable. I have several sets with lots if winter miles and no maintance. Still wiating for something to go wrong. As for da hubs since thd price hike that madison have pushed through they now just look like ecpensive good hubs. Miche hubs are just as long lived for a sixth of the cost.