Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Alex99

Hi all,

planning a re-build of wheels on my chunky town bike due to rim wear and a couple of rear NDS spoke failures.

Currently:
Nameless wide silver alloy rims
Shimano Inter-3 hub in rear
Nameless silver solid axle front hub
Spokes: plain gauge zinc galvanized

i.e. cheapo build for pottering around town.

I want the new build to be low maintenance and good value.

My question is about spoke choice for the rear. I'm keeping the Inter-3 hub. The spoke hole diameter is reported to be 2.8 mm. Should I aim to get a spoke with as close as possible to that diameter at the shoulder? Will that offer any practical advantage over e.g. 2 mm plain gauge stainless spokes?

Also, the Inter-3 hub looks like it has thin flanges. Should I use spoke washers in the new build? For information, the two spoke failures that I have had were at the shoulder.

Cheers

ugo.santalucia

Alex99 wrote:

Hi all,

planning a re-build of wheels on my chunky town bike due to rim wear and a couple of rear NDS spoke failures.

Currently:
Nameless wide silver alloy rims
Shimano Inter-3 hub in rear
Nameless silver solid axle front hub
Spokes: plain gauge zinc galvanized

i.e. cheapo build for pottering around town.

I want the new build to be low maintenance and good value.

My question is about spoke choice for the rear. I'm keeping the Inter-3 hub. The spoke hole diameter is reported to be 2.8 mm. Should I aim to get a spoke with as close as possible to that diameter at the shoulder? Will that offer any practical advantage over e.g. 2 mm plain gauge stainless spokes?

Also, the Inter-3 hub looks like it has thin flanges. Should I use spoke washers in the new build? For information, the two spoke failures that I have had were at the shoulder.

Cheers

Finally an interesting project! There is some benefit in matching wide holes with wide spoke J bends, the widest and by far the best are DT Swiss Alpine 3... they are quite cheap in Germany from Rose bikes. Generally speaking there is no benefit in using plain gauge over double or triple butted, but if you are short of cash, plain gauge will do. Washers are always a good idea, but they are incredibly expensive for what they are. The retail price should be 10 pounds per kg of them, while they cost 35 pounds for 20 grams of them, so up to you to decide whether the build deserves them. They don't mate with wide J bends, so not with the Alpine 3 spokes, for instance.

cycleclinic

Dont use galvanised spokes. They will rust. the surface pitting decrease the service life of the spoke but accelerating fatigue. Stainless spokes like the apline III are a good bet. sapim strong single butted is your other choice and if you a strong spoke then that is the one to go for.

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

Hi all,

planning a re-build of wheels on my chunky town bike due to rim wear and a couple of rear NDS spoke failures.

Currently:
Nameless wide silver alloy rims
Shimano Inter-3 hub in rear
Nameless silver solid axle front hub
Spokes: plain gauge zinc galvanized

i.e. cheapo build for pottering around town.

I want the new build to be low maintenance and good value.

My question is about spoke choice for the rear. I'm keeping the Inter-3 hub. The spoke hole diameter is reported to be 2.8 mm. Should I aim to get a spoke with as close as possible to that diameter at the shoulder? Will that offer any practical advantage over e.g. 2 mm plain gauge stainless spokes?

Also, the Inter-3 hub looks like it has thin flanges. Should I use spoke washers in the new build? For information, the two spoke failures that I have had were at the shoulder.

Cheers

Finally an interesting project! There is some benefit in matching wide holes with wide spoke J bends, the widest and by far the best are DT Swiss Alpine 3... they are quite cheap in Germany from Rose bikes. Generally speaking there is no benefit in using plain gauge over double or triple butted, but if you are short of cash, plain gauge will do. Washers are always a good idea, but they are incredibly expensive for what they are. The retail price should be 10 pounds per kg of them, while they cost 35 pounds for 20 grams of them, so up to you to decide whether the build deserves them. They don't mate with wide J bends, so not with the Alpine 3 spokes, for instance.

Thanks. So, based on Rose prices, it's only a few extra £ to go for the Alpine III and I also wouldn't use spoke washers which makes it nearly level on price. Seems like as easy choice 8)

Alex99

thecycleclinic wrote:

Dont use galvanised spokes. They will rust. the surface pitting decrease the service life of the spoke but accelerating fatigue. Stainless spokes like the apline III are a good bet. sapim strong single butted is your other choice and if you a strong spoke then that is the one to go for.

Definitely wasn't going for galvanised. Was really thinking whether the wheels 'deserved' anything better than plain gauge stainless, but as above, the price difference is actually pretty small in the grand scheme.

jdee84

If I was going to go about attempting to build a set of wheels myself just to see how it goes and if it's something I enjoy. Could anyone recommend reasonable priced components to use since I'm a complete novice and also how I would go about working out required spoke lengths?

mrb123

jdee84 wrote:

If I was going to go about attempting to build a set of wheels myself just to see how it goes and if it's something I enjoy. Could anyone recommend reasonable priced components to use since I'm a complete novice and also how I would go about working out required spoke lengths?

Why not approach someone like Malcolm from the Cycle Clinic. He'll be able to sell you all the parts you'll need and I'm sure give you very helpful advice about exactly what to buy.

Looking at his website, you could go for something like Miche Primato hubs and Kinlin rims for a reasonably priced build.
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... imato-hubs
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... -xr22t-rim

drlodge

Fat-Boy-Roubaix wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Fat-Boy-Roubaix wrote:

Having had a look around tempted by the DT Swiss RR440 with Hope Hubs, 24 front 28 back? What sort of weight and price would I be looking at for a set or just a rear? Pretty serviceable easy parts selection?

See the thread in my footer...these are 20/28 Hope hubs with RR440 rims. A very nice pair of wheels, built by Ugo. Annoyingly I hit a pot hole and bent the front rim a smidge, there's a slight bulge that won't true out.

Have got a pair of BORG50 tubeless on order from TCC, Miche hubs.

Thanks, I think this will be my route to dipping my toes in to some tailor made wheels, although black spokes for me and red hubs. Put many miles in to them, had to service the hubs at all?

I haven't serviced (properly) the hubs at all, although I did pull the freehub off and add some grease to the pawls. These wheels have seen mainly dry conditions so I expect the bearings should last a good long while. I think the pawls deserve regular greasing, as the pawls on my Record hubs wore out after a few thousand miles and had to replace them (at the extortionate cost of £10). Hope hubs have cartridge bearings, so I guess just keep them clean and replace as/when they are worn.

MikeBrew

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Fat-Boy-Roubaix wrote:

Also the handbuilts appeal as I don't have to buy two wheels every time a single wheel gets fubared, in fact this is my biggest agitation.

That is the main rationale for those like you who spend more miles on the road than sipping a cappuccino. Something minor going wrong in factory wheels might mean a massive outlay and/or a long journey for a repair

That rationale doesn't only apply to handbuilts . I recently bought a set of 32/32 Pacenti SL23 on DTSwiss 350 hubs, machine built for £207. They came with crash/wear replacement whereby if I wear out a rim or smash a wheel, I get a rebuild with all new spokes for just the price of the replacement rim.
Obviously, if I didn't feel inclined to avail myself of that offer or had a problem whilst on a long ride away from home, any local bike shop is likely to be able to help me out as there are no special spokes involved.
That said, genuine hardworking small businesses like the CycleClinic do turn out first rate products, and obviously deserve support, when it's financially viable.
Over the last 20 years I have ridden both hand-built and factory wheels for 1000's of miles a year and never suffered much in the way of failures due to the build quality of either. Hence for me, price is usually the determining factor. The idea that either is intrinsically better than the other in terms of build quality or longevity is simply not my experience.
Mind you, I tend not to stop in cafes that often, and when I do tend to slurp copious amounts of tea rather than sip cappuccino - whatever that is. :? Could it be that it's corrosive to spokes maybe...?

Alex99

MrB123 wrote:

jdee84 wrote:

If I was going to go about attempting to build a set of wheels myself just to see how it goes and if it's something I enjoy. Could anyone recommend reasonable priced components to use since I'm a complete novice and also how I would go about working out required spoke lengths?

Why not approach someone like Malcolm from the Cycle Clinic. He'll be able to sell you all the parts you'll need and I'm sure give you very helpful advice about exactly what to buy.

Looking at his website, you could go for something like Miche Primato hubs and Kinlin rims for a reasonably priced build.
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... imato-hubs
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... -xr22t-rim

105 hubs would be a solid option too. Lots of decent value parts about, would need to know a little more about type of riding and wheather you want a all-rouder, or more bombproof type of wheel. DT spokes have very good prices at Rose as noted above in the thread.

jdee84

105 hubs would be a solid option too. Lots of decent value parts about, would need to know a little more about type of riding and wheather you want a all-rouder, or more bombproof type of wheel. DT spokes have very good prices at Rose as noted above in the thread.[/quote]



I hadn't really thought that far ahead I suppose a set for my hybrid commuter would make sense as I have good and winter wheels for my road bike.

Alex99

jdee84 wrote:

105 hubs would be a solid option too. Lots of decent value parts about, would need to know a little more about type of riding and wheather you want a all-rouder, or more bombproof type of wheel. DT spokes have very good prices at Rose as noted above in the thread.

I hadn't really thought that far ahead I suppose a set for my hybrid commuter would make sense as I have good and winter wheels for my road bike.[/quote]

Maybe a rim something like I'm considering... Exal lx 17, zx 19 or ml 21 (in increasing order of weight and width). All £18 a pop. Good reputation amoung tourers reported on the web.

cycleclinic

Mikebrew where those pacenti wheels you got from superstar. I have noticed they are doing some sets cheap with v1 rims. Surprised they have any left.

spasypaddy

so i snapped a rear spoke for the third time yesterday/this morning (not sure which).

Is it time i took my wheel completely apart and started again?

This was the first wheel ive ever built

drlodge

I might suggest that, if you do not know the reason spokes are breaking, rebuilding the wheel the same way you built it the first time, will achieve nothing. Spoke breakage is usually down to lack of tension.

ugo.santalucia

spasypaddy wrote:

so i snapped a rear spoke for the third time yesterday/this morning (not sure which).

Is it time i took my wheel completely apart and started again?

This was the first wheel ive ever built

I would say so... did you start too ambitious with a low spoke count and light materials?

spasypaddy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

spasypaddy wrote:

so i snapped a rear spoke for the third time yesterday/this morning (not sure which).

Is it time i took my wheel completely apart and started again?

This was the first wheel ive ever built

I would say so... did you start too ambitious with a low spoke count and light materials?

funnily enough no. 32spoke, 105 hub, open pro rim

new spokes all round or just slacken it all off and start from scratch

ugo.santalucia

new spokes, more tension probably

MikeBrew

thecycleclinic wrote:

Mikebrew where those pacenti wheels you got from superstar. I have noticed they are doing some sets cheap with v1 rims. Surprised they have any left.

I couldn't possibly say Malcolm, without risking bringing forth a host of slavering trolls, and a certain person out in hives. :P I'll leave you to read between the lines there....

cycleclinic

I still prefer the v1 rim over the v2. Few cracked for me and the v1 rim was always flat and round unlike the v2 rim. Pacenti are changing the factory they are made in to solve some of these woes. Run two sets of v1 rims and like them. Keeping all the old stock i have for me. They are paid for a long time ago so why not. So i think they are a good choice. If the build is ropey that can be sorted and for the money you have paid you wont loose.

MikeBrew

thecycleclinic wrote:

I still prefer the v1 rim over the v2. Few cracked for me and the v1 rim was always flat and round unlike the v2 rim. Pacenti are changing the factory they are made in to solve some of these woes. Run two sets of v1 rims and like them. Keeping all the old stock i have for me. They are paid for a long time ago so why not. So i think they are a good choice. If the build is ropey that can be sorted and for the money you have paid you wont loose.

I have no reason to see the build as anything other than first rate. As I said before :

MikeBrew wrote:

Over the last 20 years I have ridden both hand-built and factory wheels for 1000's of miles a year and never suffered much in the way of failures due to the build quality of either. Hence for me, price is usually the determining factor. The idea that either is intrinsically better than the other in terms of build quality or longevity is simply not my experience.

matt_n-2

MBCaad8 wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Have got a pair of BORG50 tubeless on order from TCC, Miche hubs.

Please do report back when you've ridden them for a while - very interested in these.

Seconded, me too!

drlodge

Not got them yet...probably a week or two away from delivery.

MikeBrew

thecycleclinic wrote:

Mikebrew where those pacenti wheels you got from superstar. I have noticed they are doing some sets cheap with v1 rims. Surprised they have any left.

Changed the 23mm Pro4 SC on these to 25mm Conti's today. The larger size all but fell on, with one plastic lever used for the last couple of inches. Silky smooth ride @ 75 PSI rear - 70 PSI front, sure beats ratting your fillings out at 110 PSI on narrow rims. Might even experiment with going even lower on the pressures.

ariege_cyclist

I'm looking at putting a deeper rim on to replace a damaged Chinese carbon one. But once I get to say an 88mm rim (for TT's) the spoke lengths are 223 and 227mm at 2 cross. I don't think 3 cross would work at this small an ERD to go with longer spokes.
So - can anyone recommend me a supplier of spokes this short? Ideally like butted spokes but maybe this isn't possible in such a short length??
All help gratefully received.
Mark.

cycleclinic

you need a 28 spoke wheel for 3x to work anyway. CX-rays are available in 222mm and 226mm length with the distributor (I have just logged on and checked) but there is low stock of the 222mm lengths though.

No sure who stocks length this short. I think I have a few but not enough of a wheel and in silver. Planet X might have them and starbike might also.

tincaman

This is my Prolite Revo rear are the NDS spoke facing the right way, my other bikes are different?

steel191964

Have had my Borg 38 tubular , dura ace hubs on conti Comp tyres for over a year now can't speak highly enough of them, have also Reynolds Assault be honest prefer the Borgs no difference in speed retention braking better in the Borgs , will at some stage purchase the 50's when new frame arrives just gotta decide what that will be.

Glad i made that choice.

also great service before and after.

tincaman

tincaman wrote:

This is my Prolite Revo rear are the NDS spoke facing the right way, my other bikes are different?

Googling around , I've seen the rears laced both ways, is one way more right than the other?

drlodge

I understand that on traditional rim brake wheels, there can be a preference with wheel builders to put the spokes one way or the other e.g. the outer spokes are a bit stronger so they go on the outside in order to "pull" the wheel when under load (for the rear wheel).

However this photo is of a disc brake wheel, so the argument falls on its face - in one direction you have the pedalling force, the other way braking torque.

On the front you only have braking torque so one way may be preferred over the other there.