Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

MikeBrew

Can you not just send the wheel back rather than having to go all that way ? Who built them, weren't you where thinking of going with JRA at one time ?

ajkerr73

MikeBrew wrote:

Can you not just send the wheel back rather than having to go all that way ? Who built them, weren't you where thinking of going with JRA at one time ?

I'm going down to that area anyway for another reason.

MikeBrew

I'm guessing you didn't go with JRA in the end, as that doesn't sound like their work at all.

Also,

Ajkerr wrote:

He comes highly recommended across the board

sounds a little like you dealt with a person (one man band) rather than a business.

ajkerr73

MikeBrew wrote:

I'm guessing you didn't go with JRA in the end, as that doesn't sound like their work at all.

Also,

Ajkerr wrote:

He comes highly recommended across the board

sounds a little like you dealt with a person (one man band) rather than a business.

Very perceptive Clouseau!!!

I wont be revealing any further information so you can stand down on the witch hunt (or whatever else seems to be floating your boat here!)

MikeBrew

Hey no need to be sarky with me, I didn't make the wrong decision for you. I just thought it just might be helpful to others to be able avoid making the mistake that you did, if they knew who built them. Also, I have to say that it also kind of points to how unreliable advice on forums can be. You were going to use JRA which is a great firm, then you get talked into using someone else who is

kerr wrote:

He comes highly recommended across the board

, and he makes a pigs ear out of your build for you.

In my experience one man bands who are "highly recommended across the board" are often the architects and propagators of their own reputations more by their words than by the quality their workmanship. Others, knowing no better, then perpetuate the myth simply by repeating it.
I guess the lesson here is to follow you're own common sense next time, rather than be taken in by someone essentially "blowing their own trumpet" . You were after all apparently on the right track to start with...
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys who built your shoddy wheels, but for those that are taken in by the "handbuilt is best" Myth, at least they'd know who to avoid.(should I use an exclamation mark or 3 here ? )

apreading

I think it would be unfair to name them until they have had the opportunity to assess the situation themself. It may genuinely be nothing to do with them and some other problem, it may be that they are fantastic at dealing with the problem and go out of their way to sort it. When they are named, and I think they perhaps should be once resolved one way or the other, the context can then be included. Mistakes are made, bad batches of stuff sometimes crop up and when this happens, how it is dealt with is the key to how much trust we should put in someone. I imaging that Kerr does not want to prejudice his dealings with the builder by posting bad things which might affect the response from the builder. I think that even if you cant get there for a while, you should contact them ASAP and get their take on things though. A phone call and a few photos might get a favourable response and they may cover the cost of shipping them back if they are convinced that they are at fault and want to protect their reputation - you never know...

ugo.santalucia

This is all well and good. I assume Ajkerr will deal with whoever built those wheels and come to a solution.

However, this thread is about rims, spokes, hubs, hole counts, what goes with what and whatnot... can we now all stick to the topic?
I did create this as a sticky last year with the idea of having a resource like other forums have (LFGSS among others) which I am sure you all agree is very useful. Let's not turn it into another place for bickering and litigations of sort.
If it helps I can ask the admin folks to move it away from "road buying advice" and into "workshop"

steoroc

Hi guys, any reason other than aesthetics to pick Archetypes over Kinlin XR22?

ugo.santalucia

steoroc wrote:

Hi guys, any reason other than aesthetics to pick Archetypes over Kinlin XR22?

It's a more robust rim? The nipple bed is nearly twice as thick

Camcycle1974

Ugo, what do you think of the Kinlin XR31T?

ugo.santalucia

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Ugo, what do you think of the Kinlin XR31T?

You have to ask the cycleclinic, as I have never seen one... I no longer build wheels other than for myself and a couple of friends I cycle with, so I am am bit out of touch with the latest rims. The early Kinlin rims were a bit agricultural, but the more recent are much better finished

cycleclinic

The kinlin rims XR22T and XR31T have a 2mm spoke nipple bed thickness. The archetype is about 4mm thick there. The archetype therefore hold higher spoke tension which of course you dont use but it is ideally suited to rider of 120kg or more.

the XR22t and XR31T are available as off set rims. The XR22t and archetype are about as stiff as each other but the archetype has easier tyre fitting. the XR31T is so stiff I struggle to see why anyone needs more than 20F/24R with these especcially if you go with the off set rim. In fact there are few rims that are stiffer. Stiffer wheels mean longer spoke life.

I hope the poster with the broken spokes get there problem sorted. The rim will be fine. The spokes had insuffient tension or where not stress releived properly. I would echo ugo comments you just dont get bad spokes and if you do it one in 10000. If a wheel goes out of true in the first few rides or breaks a spokes it is simply a sign the wheelbuilder has a made a mistake and needs to correct it. Ther archetype with 36 Sapim race or DT comp spokes is good for 120kg+riders until the rim wear out.

When you get the wheel back do this test before you fit it. Grasp pairs of spokes and really squeeze until your hands hurt. Do this for all groups of spokes. If the wheel goes out of true then you know the wheel has not been stress relieved properly. stressing the spokes also bed them into the hub and a tension drop will occur. Of course tension need to be increased if this happens. another test is to place the end caps on a block of wood and press down on the rim. You can press quite a bit the hub wont mind. spin the wheel and repeat 4 times. flip the wheel over and do this again. A properly stress relieved wheels will not budge. This is my trick it is the only way I can ensure a wheel does not stress relieve and go out on the first ride.

If the wheel does budge then you know to get that fixed before you ride. If it does not then it is good to go.

drlodge

thecycleclinic wrote:

Another test is to place the end caps on a block of wood and press down on the rim. You can press quite a bit the hub wont mind. spin the wheel and repeat 4 times. flip the wheel over and do this again. A properly stress relieved wheels will not budge. This is my trick it is the only way I can ensure a wheel does not stress relieve and go out on the first ride.

This is what Harry Rowland does, I visited him when he built my wheels nearly 4 years back. I was quite surprised at the amount of force he used, but I guess it's what it needs.

MBCaad8

Anyone on here with experience of wheels from Spin Industries (http://ridefullgas.com/about/)?

cycleclinic

The thing harry does it with narrow shallow rim like the open pro. A 32H one of those with sapim race spokes feels like it is going to fold when loaded pushing down from the DS. You feel the NDS go slack and when it back in the jig it is all over the place. This why I dont like narrow and shallow much it takes forever to get a stable wheel.

drlodge

Harry built me two pairs of wheels, one with Open Pro rims (NOS stock Durace hubs 126mm/Uniglide freehub) and the others what you describe - Record hubs, 32 Sapim race/laser spokes and Excellight rims. They are fine enough wheels, but because he only builds shallow/narrow rims, I now go elsewhere. First Ugo (as he was local) and now someone else for a pair of carbon clinchers. Will have to see how this new builder does ;-)

Certainly there are better rims on the market now and things are improving all the time. Wider, deeper, stronger, tubeless. And going handbuilt, cheaper than the factory alternatives for a better wheel IMO.

marin_maniac

drlodge wrote:

he only builds shallow/narrow rims

This isn't the case.

I know this as I saw him on Tuesday as he rebuilt some Kinlin xc279's that Malcolm originally built me (which were/are excellent Malcolm) and they survived a rear mech incident. Got the LBS to rebuild the wheel after the incident who made a complete fark up of it.

Took the wheel to Harry who needless to say rectified the LBS's very shabby attempt at rebuilding the wheel.

Anyway my point is Harry and I were discussing the merits of Kinlin rims and he had some built ready to be posted.

ugo.santalucia

Marin Maniac wrote:

drlodge wrote:

he only builds shallow/narrow rims

This isn't the case.

I know this as I saw him on Tuesday as he rebuilt some Kinlin xc279's that Malcolm originally built me (which were/are excellent Malcolm) and they survived a rear mech incident. Got the LBS to rebuild the wheel after the incident who made a complete fark up of it.

Took the wheel to Harry who needless to say rectified the LBS's very shabby attempt at rebuilding the wheel.

Anyway my point is Harry and I were discussing the merits of Kinlin rims and he had some built ready to be posted.

I don't think it was a case of narrow Vs wide. I think it's a matter with suppliers. He had an issue with BLB Big Mama which supply H plus Son and Velocity, as I understand

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I don't think it was a case of narrow Vs wide. I think it's a matter with suppliers. He had an issue with BLB Big Mama which supply H plus Son and Velocity, as I understand

OK so Harry may build some wide/deep rims. I think Ugo is right in that he won't build stuff from certain suppliers, since he can't get the parts. And he won't build what isn't "tried and tested" in his view - he won't put his name to a wheel that he doesn't have confidence in. Since most deep/wide rims are more recent, they generally aren't tried and tested but of course there are exceptions.

Otherwise he's a great wheel builder, certainly has a lot of experience.

ugo.santalucia

If my memory doesn't trick me Harry used to build wheels for BLB, but they were not stickered with his name and they made it public on the site that they were handbuilt by Harry Rowland, despite he never agreeing to that... that's when it all got pear shaped, I seem to recall... don't quote me on this, I might remember wrong or I might have been misinformed

gaffer_slow

cycleclinic wrote:

If a wheel goes out of true in the first few rides or breaks a spokes it is simply a sign the wheelbuilder has a made a mistake and needs to correct it.

what other reasons are there for why a wheel could go out of true quickly?

All i know of are

* error in tensioning
* wheel not stressed sufficiently

from what i have read in the last few posts there is a very small chance of a "bad" spoke, would the same be able to be said of a rim? Is a carbon rim more likely to have structural integrity issues than an alloy? I *think* i understand that a stiff rim might be easier to get true than a softer one (or at least a softer one is harder to get true) ... is a stiffer rim more likely to stay true (assuming the softer rim is correctly tensioned and sufficiently stressed)

cycleclinic

The two reasons why wheels go out of true you have identified.

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If my memory doesn't trick me Harry used to build wheels for BLB, but they were not stickered with his name and they made it public on the site that they were handbuilt by Harry Rowland, despite he never agreeing to that... that's when it all got pear shaped, I seem to recall... don't quote me on this, I might remember wrong or I might have been misinformed

That's pretty much what he told me.

paul.lit7

Hi

just bought a super six evo 105 with shimano rs11 and love the bike,
i was wonder what your thoughts were on a wheelset upgrade as every review i read slams these wheels,

im not sure if they are good or bad as this is my first proper road bike,

thanks for any advice

letap73

See how the wheels are first is my advice - if you happy with them stick with them, if not come back and say what you want in a new set of wheels and how much you want to spend.

thiscocks

drlodge wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Otherwise he's a great wheel builder, certainly has a lot of experience.

The wheel I got from him a couple of years ago kept breaking spokes, and I didn't find him particularly great to deal with. Not sure what all fuss about him is...

Tjm208

Hi all,

Narrowing down my selection for a set of wheels for my summer bike. Tiny bit of background- I'm large, 6'5, 88-92kg depending on time of season, 5min power of about 400w and 60 of around 310w. Wheels will be a bit of a do-everything, rolling hills around Surrey and Kent, trips to the Alps and Tenerife, and some time trials.


I have spoken to a couple of wheel builders and have narrowed the selection to either wheelsmith's race 30, which is an IRD cadence aero 24mm width, 30mm depth, laced 24/32 with cxrays, on either a dt Swiss or Chris King hub, for roughly 900, or from just riding along, a panceti s23, on the same hubs and spokes, for roughly 70 quid more, weighing maybe 50-80g less.

I can't profess to know very much about all of this other than a frantic couple of weeks reading, so o was wondering if anyone had tried both builders and/or both rims and could offer some advice? Just from my guessing I am leaning towards the wheelsmiths due to a bit of extra depth dor aerodynamics, and hoping that the increased stiffness that comes along with this makes up for the slight weight gain on the climbs. Being 90kg myself I can't imagine the 50g rim weight is going to be a drastic hinderance.

Also leaving towards using the slight saving on the wheelsmith build to get the Chris King hubs- does this sound sensible?

I had a go at the search function but couldn't find these two mentioned together. If this same q has been posed before please tell me to bugger off and I'll have another look!

Thanks

ugo.santalucia

Why do you want Chris King hubs? They are just expensive, not better. I would rather have Hope any day of the week

philbar72

seconded, Chris king are bling, but you'd get better bang for buck out of hope, or shimano for that matter.

Tjm208

Both builders recommended them for durability given my weight- are they flawed?