Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

tibble89

Why is choosing a set of wheels so difficult, I didn't realise there was so much choice! Was originally looking at Kinesis Crosslight(£270-300) until I stumbled upon the whole handbuilt market and now I'm struggling to make a decision..

cycleclinic

It is not that hard. You want a round and straight wheel that will stay that way. You want it to be repairable if damged and easily serviced. You want it to be stiff. You may want a wide rim (some are not bothered). You may want tubeless compatibility. You may want it to be light and aero or you may not care.

You can use criteria to whittle down the options.

Given you are looking at disc brake wheels there really is not that much choice. Pacenti SL25 are expensive and cheap hubs along with silver sapim race spokes or ACI would have to be used to keep them in budget. The only rims that will allow good hubs and triple butted spokes to be used are the DT Swiss R460 disc brake rim and the Kinlin XR22RT OCR.

Both are cheap both are good but the kinlin is offset which is better. You can have laced up to Novatec or other sensibly priced disc brake hubs with triple butted spokes and bingo a fine wheelset within budget using rims that can be replaced if like me you have a fetish for crashing through sunken manholes in the dark and killing rims.

tibble89

I want Novatec D771/2 hubs and a tubeless rim that won't be too much hassle to put my current 28c marathon plus tyre on. Guess I'll do some research on double vs triple butted spokes and spoke count, but most I like the look of are using double butted with 32 spoke count so seems a "safe" option.

What's confusing is if I browse a few websites of wheelbuilders they seem to stock different rims which makes deciding quite hard.. Ideally I want it to be around £270/280 with postage

Need to decide soon because my rear joytech hub that's only 16 months old is dying a slow death.

ugo.santalucia

tibble89 wrote:

I want Novatec D771/2 hubs and a tubeless rim that won't be too much hassle to put my current 28c marathon plus tyre on. Guess I'll do some research on double vs triple butted spokes and spoke count, but most I like the look of are using double butted with 32 spoke count so seems a "safe" option.

What's confusing is if I browse a few websites of wheelbuilders they seem to stock different rims which makes deciding quite hard.. Ideally I want it to be around £270/280 with postage

Need to decide soon because my rear joytech hub that's only 16 months old is dying a slow death.

Just to add a spanner in the works, if I was to build a "budget" set of tubeless rims now, I'd probably look at the WTB CX 19 frequency rims... they seem light, well priced and I like the I beam construction. Never had one to try, so no idea how tyres fit on them. DT 460 would probably be the alternative, although they are not as wide as I would like them to be

cycleclinic

I have mounted Schwable marathon plus tyres on DT Swiss R460 rims by hand. Very tight but doable.

The whole point of triple butted spokes is they add 10g to the wheelset but sapim force for example add 21% to the cross sectional area where it matters the elbows. Given disc brake wheels dont die of rim wear a high mileage rider will want very long spoke life. Also you can drop the spoke count to 28 or 24 quite safely with triple butted spokes. Although the more miles you do the more spokes you may want.

As I said it is not hard and research is not required. Look at the spec of the wheels and think about it. The recipe for long lived disc brake wheel is really very very simple.

The Pacenti SL25 uses and I beam. So does the SL23. Had a wheel come back where the beam came loose. I dont think it overly common but common enough for the distributor to be well aware of it. No idea if the WTB rim suffers form this as well.

tibble89

My commute is very short, only 40 miles a week thankfully. I don't use my bike for "leisure" at the moment simply because it's not enjoyable riding with a wheelset+tyre/tube that totals 4.6Kg

I'd want something that I could take onto gravel paths etc once I purchase new tyres without worrying about the wheels. I'll send you message about the Kinlin/Sapim Race/Novatec combination to see how much it would be. Have to weigh up my options!

gaffer_slow

thecycleclinic wrote:

The Pacenti SL25 uses and I beam. So does the SL23.

what is this beam and how do you know if it is loose?

JesseD

thecycleclinic wrote:

If you don't want lateral movement or at least anything you will notice then don't use the lightweight Pacenti SL23. While a 28 spoke rear is quite stiff it is still possible to detension the NDS spokes and that is when people notice flex.

Use a rim with off set drilling for the rear. There are 4 around at the moment.
Ryde Pulse sprint (and the comp but have you tried fitting a tyre to the comps' don't if I where you)
DT Swiss RR440
Kinlin XR22t
Kinlin XR31t

the last rim is the best not the lightest but overall the best rim. All you would need is a 20F/24R as the rim is so stiff. the first rim is the light and actually quite stiff. The DT swiss rim is O.K but is the the best rim for a race set of wheels - probably not. The third works fine in 24F/28R and would also be fine for racing/training everything really.

Hubs well so long as the wheel turns smoothly on them, they give good bracing angles and the bearings last then spend as little or as much as you want.

Of the many wheels you can buy on the market sold as race wheels I do think the Kinlin XR31T laced to something decent hub wise (that does not mean a big spend either) performs just as well if not better in some ways. Certainly wheels built with this rim are very stiff indeed.

Brilliant thanks for the advice, so if I went for the Kinlin XR31t, would you recommend 20/24 spokes or 24/28?

Given my weight and riding style, would 24/28 be overkill?

My guess is the extra couple of grams for the additional spokes would in reality make eff all difference especially in crit/circuit racing which is primarily flat bar a couple of small rises.

What lacing pattern would be advisable as well, Radial for the front and 2 cross drive side and radial non drive side?

Also what is the consensus on bladed spokes or are they just a waste of money?

Speshnewbie

I'm looking for some advice from the forum experts as I want to buy a new set of wheels for my Domane.

I've tried running a tubeless set-up previously using the Bontrager TLR conversion kit with R3 Tubeless tyres but I'm currently back running with tubes as the tyres constantly lost pressure. This was despite my local LBS re-seating the tyres and trying Stans sealant instead of Bontrager's own sealant.

I currently weight 92kg but I'm hoping to lose a few kilos for the summer. I want to give Tubeless another shot but try running an IRC or Schwalbe tyre to see if this is a better set-up. My proposed build is as follows:

Rim: HED Belgium +
Hub: Shimano Dura Ace or DT Swiss 240
Spokes: Sapim Race or DT Competition

The wheels will only be used during the summer and hopefully mostly in dry weather.

I'm looking for some advice on the following:

1. Can I get away with a 24/28 spoke set-up or should I go with 28/32 to be on the safe side?
2. Given that the wheels will mostly be used in dry weather, can I use aluminium nipples or are brass a better option given my weight?

Any advice would be appreciated.

ugo.santalucia

Speshnewbie wrote:

I'm looking for some advice from the forum experts as I want to buy a new set of wheels for my Domane.

I've tried running a tubeless set-up previously using the Bontrager TLR conversion kit with R3 Tubeless tyres but I'm currently back running with tubes as the tyres constantly lost pressure. This was despite my local LBS re-seating the tyres and trying Stans sealant instead of Bontrager's own sealant.

I currently weight 92kg but I'm hoping to lose a few kilos for the summer. I want to give Tubeless another shot but try running an IRC or Schwalbe tyre to see if this is a better set-up. My proposed build is as follows:

Rim: HED Belgium +
Hub: Shimano Dura Ace or DT Swiss 240
Spokes: Sapim Race or DT Competition

The wheels will only be used during the summer and hopefully mostly in dry weather.

I'm looking for some advice on the following:

1. Can I get away with a 24/28 spoke set-up or should I go with 28/32 to be on the safe side?
2. Given that the wheels will mostly be used in dry weather, can I use aluminium nipples or are brass a better option given my weight?

Any advice would be appreciated.

I have HED + and used both IRC and Schwalbe with success, the former are better tyres IMO, they last longer and they don't cut as easily.
You need Dura Ace hubs and 32 rear or Ultegra and 32 front and rear. Brass nipples are an absolute must, especially for an heavy rider

cycleclinic

spoke to the distributor today. There was a batch of Pacenti rims affected by the loose i-beam. The punch that dents the rim at the weld to hold the bugger in place punched weak. Since they have become aware the distirbutor have been using a punch and hammer yes thats the fix on every rim to ensure that no more worked loose well all but the one I had anyway. The problem should not be present itself any more. If it does warranty covers it.

You will know if it works loose it will rattle.

JesseD I can't remember how heavy you are but the Kinlin is a very stiff rim. add the offset drilling (which improves NDS rear spoke life) and spokes with a 2.2mm or 2.3mm diameter at the elbow I would think a 24 spoke rear would fine for fairly heavy riders (if you want a weight limit I don't have one but it is not 80kg either, besides I have come to think weight limits are pretty meaningless). However more spokes never hurts.

speshnewbie - your issue sounds like the tyre/rim issue. I personally don't have pressure loss issues on my schwable ones or IRC tyres mounted to various rims. currently on schwable ones as I have a stock to use up and they are so cheap online it is not even worth selling them. The IRC are a better tyre however IRC can't make enough to meet demand and neither can schwable at present.

24F/28R with the belgium+ rim is fine 32R does not hurt but I don't think it is essential either. Alloy nipples from sapim at least just dont seem to present a problem for the normal weight range cycist fall into. I would shy way for using them for 100kg riders but I have them on my commutor for example. I weigh 85 kg kitted up. the bike is 9kg with 7 kg of rack panniers e.t.c and the disc brake wheels are only 24 spoke. Received wisdom says they should fall apart but they have not. I ride through alot of crap and no nipple/spoke breakages nor am I aware of any with the few thousand sapim nipples I have used. I doubt therefore alloy nipples will present a problem but neither will brass. What I will say if I have a number of bad experience with a) black alloy nipples causing excessive wind up with thin spokes and leading to visible twist that you can feel (that spoke is in the bin) and b) with any brass nipple on a CX-ray the wind up, which sometimes happens, causes the spoke to twist relative to the spoke holder leading to a visible permanent twist meaning either you have to spend extra time putting really small turns on the nipple or change the spoke and nipple to find one that does not twist. So if you go for brass stick to silver ones and a round spokes.

those are my thoughts anyway. Other peoples opinions may differ.

Speshnewbie

Thanks to Ugo and Malcolm for the very helpful responses.

Anonymous

Out of curiosity sake, what's the lightest, stiffest wheel you could build for around £5-600 quid.

Weight would need to be close to 1300 and a similar stiffness to the Campag Eurus, otherwise I'd just get the Eurus which is insanely stiff, light and has a few extra mm depth for on the flat.

ugo.santalucia

coriordan wrote:

Out of curiosity sake, what's the lightest, stiffest wheel you could build for around £5-600 quid.

Weight would need to be close to 1300 and a similar stiffness to the Campag Eurus, otherwise I'd just get the Eurus which is insanely stiff, light and has a few extra mm depth for on the flat.

With light and stiff, factory wheels like the Zero, Mavic SLR, Eurus etc have the upper hand, as they use massive aluminium spokes, which are not for hand built construction, so like for like hand built cannot build as stiff.
However, with a wise choice of chinese rims, one can build a set of light and reasonably deep (35-40 mm) rims that weigh 1000-1200 grams and are stiff as a result of the rim depth and width.

With alloy rims, 1250-1300 grams are achievable, but they are typically noodle like. Have a look at what Spada offers: his hub design is meant to improve stiffness and he sells alloy wheels of 1200 grams which are allegedly very stiff. How much is left of the handbuilt idea, in terms of ease of repair/source parts, is hard to say though, as they are all proprietary parts

cycleclinic

1200-1300g wheels can be done.

for example the Pacenti SL23 rim in 20f/28r paired to extralite hub would be far from noodley but also more than the budget of £600. these would be 1265g. If the ryde pulse sprint rims are used weight would drop further and they would still be quite stiff.

A bit over weight but not heavy either and cheaper is the Ryde Pulse Sprint rim 24F/28R (offset rear rim) and White Industries T11 hubs weight 1375g. Use tune hubs and another 90g can drop off.

So alloy clinchers in that weight range for around that money can be built and they are not noodely (wide rims and 28 spoke on the rear). Carbon tubular rims are the easy way to get down to that weight but with carbon clinchers rims which tend to be heavier it is harder unless very low spoke counts are used and either cheap light hubs or expensive light hubs are used.
I have done for my self a 38mm 20F/24R carbon tubular set that is 1020g using Carbon Ti hubs.

I am assuming thin sapim lasers or Sapim CX-rays are used in the above or the equivalent DT Swiss spokes. I also assume alloy nipples and the above examples will have weight limits. the ryde rim for example has a 100kg weight limit (rider + bike) and the Pacenti rim again is around 100kg (rider + plus bike). It is a 417g average rim after all. However like all light weight components the lighter the rider the better.

The thick aluminum spokes that mavic use are not that light compared to a thin steel one but what they are is stiff allowing much lower spoke counts, however thick aluminium spokes should be aerodynamic than more more thin steel ones. so what is gained one way is lost in another. As always wheel design involves balancing a number of characteristic and this means compromises.

So it is possible but whether the "factory" wheels are better depends on if you are willing to accept the compromises these wheel offer.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

1200-1300g wheels can be done.

for example the Pacenti SL23 rim in 20f/28r paired to extralite hub would be far from noodley but also more than the budget of £600. these would be 1265g. If the ryde pulse sprint rims are used weight would drop further and they would still be quite stiff.

A bit over weight but not heavy either and cheaper is the Ryde Pulse Sprint rim 24F/28R (offset rear rim) and White Industries T11 hubs weight 1375g. Use tune hubs and another 90g can drop off.

Ultimately when you go below 1400-1500 grams, it's just weight saivng at the hub, which is a pointless and expensive exercise. Tune have made a business out of selling components which are completely useless in the real world. Brands like Mavic or Fulcrum can spec rims of the weight they want and build the wheel around them. They might use ultra light rims with specially designed washers, like Campag does. One has to accept strengths and limitations and I think "ultimate weight saving" is not a strength of artisan built wheels in the same wat as it is not a strength of artisan built bicycles in general. The discerning cyclist knows where money is better spent, for the others there is always something very very light that promises otherwordly performance improvements at a reduced price somewhere

cycleclinic

I agree I am just saying it is possible not necessary wise or desirable. note how none of my own regularly used wheels use very light weight hubs.

As I said it depends which comprimises you are willing to accept. In Mavic wheels there are different comprimises to campagnolo and to something built in a shop. Also the rims used by mavic et.al can only be so light. They achieve very low weights with tubular wheels. Looking at the mavic range again all there clinchers are 1350g (mavic pro carbon SL) or more.
the campagnolo neutrons are more senisble weight at 1470g. with that weight you can have durace hubs laced to variety of rims.

The OP wanted to know what exists in the 1200-1300g weight range. this is only possible with tubular from the major maufacturers (some of the boutique ones have offerings though). If clinchers are wanted then weight generally goes up unless very light weight hubs are used.

Weight saved ugo is the same whether it be from the rim or hub. It makes little difference when climbing. Maths has been done on this. So it just depends if the compromises inherent in most light weight hubs can be lived with or not.

MikeBrew

Is there such a thing as a disc specific H+Son Archetype rim ?

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

Is there such a thing as a disc specific H+Son Archetype rim ?

No.
I think H plus Son have missed a trick or two over the past 3 years. They haven't come out with a single new product and their rims as a result are getting now a bit obsolete. As I understand the owner is a bit of a fuxxer, who enjoys partying more than anything else

MikeBrew

So, can standard Archetypes be built into disc wheels ?

apreading

YES they can.

Archetypes havent been updated but they are still brilliant - easy to get tyres on unlike many of the (particularly tubeless ready) rims out there. Mine have been solid for around 10,000 miles now.

Personally, I dont think H Plus Son need to update them. If I were getting handbuilts again I wouldnt hesitate. These on DT350 hubs with D-Type spokes would be my choice right now.

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

Personally, I dont think H Plus Son need to update them. If I were getting handbuilts again I wouldnt hesitate. These on DT350 hubs with D-Type spokes would be my choice right now.

Not Archetype specifically, but they have 7 rims in the range and 5 of them only appeal to fixie and bike polo players, which isn't a huge market

ugo.santalucia

Interesting, but where to source it?

http://www.drc.it/gamma-home/areotec-db/

arlowood

MikeBrew wrote:

So, can standard Archetypes be built into disc wheels ?

apreading wrote:

YES they can.

Archetypes havent been updated but they are still brilliant - easy to get tyres on unlike many of the (particularly tubeless ready) rims out there. Mine have been solid for around 10,000 miles now.

Personally, I dont think H Plus Son need to update them. If I were getting handbuilts again I wouldnt hesitate. These on DT350 hubs with D-Type spokes would be my choice right now.

+1 to apreading's comments above.

I currently have a set of disc wheels based on Archetype rims with Hope Pro2 Evo hubs courtesy of Moonglu. Bought about a year ago and they have been brilliant - still smooth and true despite my 90kg lard bucket profile.

Appears that Moonglu no longer offer the Archetype rim as an option but Maicolm at Cycleclinic does

http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... vatec-hubs

and also Spokeman wheels via their Ebay shop (see the disc option offer mid-way down this ad).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/H-Plus-Son-Ar ... 25a1903c1e

My interest has moved away from disc wheels since I have, today, been unable to resist the Planet X clearance sale and pulled the trigger on a Pro Carbon frameset for £260. Plan to build this up later this year so will be in the market for some handbuilt road wheels come March/April.

May still go for an Archetype based design but am open to options for other wider rims with a good track record.

graememacd

Not specifically hand built but I have to replace a broken spoke on my Fulcrum 5 wheels. It's on the rear drive side and it's 1 of 2 round spokes (all the others are blade spokes. Does anyone have an idea on the length of the spoke?? It's a straight pull one if that makes any difference

thepeginator

graememacd wrote:

Not specifically hand built but I have to replace a broken spoke on my Fulcrum 5 wheels. It's on the rear drive side and it's 1 of 2 round spokes (all the others are blade spokes. Does anyone have an idea on the length of the spoke?? It's a straight pull one if that makes any difference

Forgive me for stating the obvious but have you still got the broken one? You could measure it?

Also a quick google revealed this: http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/fulc ... Atig8P8HAQ

Fulcrum Racing 5 (2010-2013), rear right (drive side) spoke, length: 281mm

graememacd

thepeginator wrote:

graememacd wrote:

Not specifically hand built but I have to replace a broken spoke on my Fulcrum 5 wheels. It's on the rear drive side and it's 1 of 2 round spokes (all the others are blade spokes. Does anyone have an idea on the length of the spoke?? It's a straight pull one if that makes any difference

Forgive me for stating the obvious but have you still got the broken one? You could measure it?

Also a quick google revealed this: http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/fulc ... Atig8P8HAQ

Fulcrum Racing 5 (2010-2013), rear right (drive side) spoke, length: 281mm

No I don't have the broken one as part of it ended up in the bin by the side of the road and the other part disappeared somewhere on the road.
I took the other round spoke off the wheel and it measured 284mm. I'll pop over to my LBS and see what they've got

MikeBrew

Posted this here as it relates to some wheels that I may want built in the very near future. Archetype (32H) rims already procured . My question is, does anyone know what axle/hub widths I'd need to fit a 2015 CAAD 10 Disc specific frame ? Thanks in advance.

thepeginator

MikeBrew wrote:

Posted this here as it relates to some wheels that I may want built in the very near future. Archetype (32H) rims already procured . My question is, does anyone know what axle/hub widths I'd need to fit a 2015 CAAD 10 Disc specific frame ? Thanks in advance.

Assuming it's QR front and rear road disc standard is 100mm axel (same as any road bike) at the front and 135mm at the rear (ever so slightly wider than standard rim brake road wheels).

Novatec D711 / D712 are a popular hub choice for road disc wheels. I have them on my hand builds, can't fault them so far.

trek_dan

Anybody built a set of the new(ish) Kinlin XR22T? What are they like for fitting clincher tyres to?