Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

ugo.santalucia

Archetype. There isn't enough there to justify the extra 90 quid or so you need to fork out for the Pacenti... the weight saving is probably around 60 grams, not 200

dazz_ni45

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Archetype. There isn't enough there to justify the extra 90 quid or so you need to fork out for the Pacenti... the weight saving is probably around 60 grams, not 200

Thanks Ugo. My local wheelbuilder has said the Sl23 will cost roughly £50 more than the Archetypes. At that money would it be worth it.

I was under the impression from some internet research (which of course is always reliable )the weight difference would be more but you obviously have a lot more experience in these matters

ugo.santalucia

dazz_ni45 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Archetype. There isn't enough there to justify the extra 90 quid or so you need to fork out for the Pacenti... the weight saving is probably around 60 grams, not 200

Thanks Ugo. My local wheelbuilder has said the Sl23 will cost roughly £50 more than the Archetypes. At that money would it be worth it.

I was under the impression from some internet research (which of course is always reliable )the weight difference would be more but you obviously have a lot more experience in these matters

30 grams per rim, 40 tops if you pick a light Pacenti and a heavy Archetype... irrelevant. I haven't built anywhere near as many SL than Archetype (probably 1:20 is a fair ratio) and that is mainly due to the fact that I had easy access to Archetype and less to the Pacenti. However, I have had to replace a couple of SL because they cracked and never had to replace a single Archetype.
I understand the V2 has been improved and all that, but based on my experience, the Archetype is a fit and forget rim, while the other one isn't, hence the advice. Also, the new brake track of the V2 is barely as tall as a brake pad, which might lead to issues as pads wear.

Why going through some potential extra hassle for a pair of training wheels, let alone the extra money?

dazz_ni45

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dazz_ni45 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Archetype. There isn't enough there to justify the extra 90 quid or so you need to fork out for the Pacenti... the weight saving is probably around 60 grams, not 200

Thanks Ugo. My local wheelbuilder has said the Sl23 will cost roughly £50 more than the Archetypes. At that money would it be worth it.

I was under the impression from some internet research (which of course is always reliable )the weight difference would be more but you obviously have a lot more experience in these matters

30 grams per rim, 40 tops if you pick a light Pacenti and a heavy Archetype... irrelevant. I haven't built anywhere near as many SL than Archetype (probably 1:20 is a fair ratio) and that is mainly due to the fact that I had easy access to Archetype and less to the Pacenti. However, I have had to replace a couple of SL because they cracked and never had to replace a single Archetype.
I understand the V2 has been improved and all that, but based on my experience, the Archetype is a fit and forget rim, while the other one isn't, hence the advice. Also, the new brake track of the V2 is barely as tall as a brake pad, which might lead to issues as pads wear.

Why going through some potential extra hassle for a pair of training wheels, let alone the extra money?

All good points, thanks Ugo. Any idea of the real world weight of Archetypes with Miche hubs.

apreading

The Archetypes are one of the few rims I have seen lately that are actually easy to get tyres on/off too.

ugo.santalucia

dazz_ni45 wrote:

All good points, thanks Ugo. Any idea of the real world weight of Archetypes with Miche hubs.

Depends on spokes... say 32/32 race rear laser front you should be around 1800 grams, 24/28 same spokes you will be just over 1700

mrb123

dazz_ni45 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dazz_ni45 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Archetype. There isn't enough there to justify the extra 90 quid or so you need to fork out for the Pacenti... the weight saving is probably around 60 grams, not 200

Thanks Ugo. My local wheelbuilder has said the Sl23 will cost roughly £50 more than the Archetypes. At that money would it be worth it.

I was under the impression from some internet research (which of course is always reliable )the weight difference would be more but you obviously have a lot more experience in these matters

30 grams per rim, 40 tops if you pick a light Pacenti and a heavy Archetype... irrelevant. I haven't built anywhere near as many SL than Archetype (probably 1:20 is a fair ratio) and that is mainly due to the fact that I had easy access to Archetype and less to the Pacenti. However, I have had to replace a couple of SL because they cracked and never had to replace a single Archetype.
I understand the V2 has been improved and all that, but based on my experience, the Archetype is a fit and forget rim, while the other one isn't, hence the advice. Also, the new brake track of the V2 is barely as tall as a brake pad, which might lead to issues as pads wear.

Why going through some potential extra hassle for a pair of training wheels, let alone the extra money?

All good points, thanks Ugo. Any idea of the real world weight of Archetypes with Miche hubs.

Malcolm at The Cycle Clinic lists weights with differing spoke counts here...

http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... lset-black

Camcycle1974

dazz_ni45 wrote:

I'm after a little bit of advice from the resident experts

I'm looking for a set of handbuilt wheels primarily for fast training runs and occasional club races (when I don't want to use my Reynolds Assaults). I had though about the a set of Kysrium Elites but prefer the comfort/serviceability/repairability of handbuilts but I do want to stick around this price point (under £400).

I am going to opt for Miche hubs and my main query is whether to go for the Archetype or the Pacenti SL23 V2 rim.

I'm not sure whether I will run the wheels tubeless or tubed and already have a set of the SL23 V1 which I do run tubeless but mounting tyres was an absolute pig. I appreciate the V2 is supposed to be easier to mount tyres, but is there any real world experience of using tubes and tyres with this rim?

From a performance perspective, I'm aware that the Sl23 is a stiff rim but in real terms will I notice any significant difference in performance between the Archetype and SL23? Built with either 20F/28R or 24F/28R (I'm about 78kg) the Archtetypes seem to be around 1700g and the SL23's around 1500g so I'm swaying toward the SL23.

I will probably be running them with 23c tyres as I have clearance issues on one of the bikes they will be used on.

Might be worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p__OhpxeBJ0

cycleclinic

One customer sent his sl23 wheels back because he complained of brake shudder it turned out not be the wheel but the position of his pads as they where catching the decals. The solution is koolstops dura2 pads as they are 7.65mm tall. The brake track is 8mm tall. Good pads too. There is a wet weather version as well (salmon). Pacenti rims though are not training rims in my book. They are too pricey. Training wheels should use a cheaper rim.

The pick of the best are the
1) dt swiss r460 £35 and 480g 23mm wide 23mm deep
2) kinlin xr22t front and the rear xr22rt (offset drilling) £35 24mm wide 22mm deep 450g
3) kinlin xr31t front and xr31rt rear (offset drilling) £50 24mm wide and 31mm deep. A very stiff rim and 490g
4) archetype £55 23mm wide 25mm deep no stiffer than the first two rims but the spoke nipple bed is very thick making it ideal for very heavy riders 485g

So the archetype was a great rim and it still is but it has competition now and kinlin have the best offering these days with there offset drilling.

trek_dan

I'd definitely be inclined to pick Archetypes over others (especially SL23's, I have no experience with the 2 Kinlin rims) if you want to use clincher tyres.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

archetype £55 23mm wide 25mm deep no stiffer than the first two rims but the spoke nipple bed is verh thick making it ideal for very heavy riders 485g

Yep, because the profile is such a steep V, the nipple bed is almost 2 mm thicker than any other rim on the market. What it means is that even a total novice without a tension meter can build them safely. I have seen Archetype built at 1600 N, which would normally crack a rim pretty quickly, but they were absolutely fine.
Heavy guys will swing the spoke tension more at each revolution, so a thick nipple bed is a must... as it comes at virtually no extra weight, it's really a USP

cycleclinic

The archetype also comes in 36h drilling another nice thing for 120kg riders. The other rims i mentioned only go up to 32h drilling which is fine for most.

bikes`n`guns

Wheelsmith Race 30 24mm wide with Dura ace hubs (24 , 28 ) ordered today.

I needed a £30 cassette from wiggle and spent £73, oops! Bikes eh ?

bluemoon17

Anybody have any experience of mounting clinchers on Kinlin xr31t rims? Tubeless ready rim but not looking to make the switch just yet.

annoyingtwit

Well, I gave wheelbuilding, or rebuilding, a go by replacing all the spokes in an old wheel. The lacing went OK, I copied the pattern of the spokes that were already there. The wheel isn't quite round yet. I'm going to give Sheldon Brown's techniques a go to see if I can get the wheel all of: round, dished, tensioned, true. Next I'm going to tune the spokes (302mm) to F# (370Hz), and try his torsion relieving technique. I'm hoping that if I continue the research/work on wheel loop that I'll eventually get it somewhere near to being in the right shape/dish/true/tension. And that I'll have learned the process better for my next step: building a wheel from scratch.

cycleclinic

Depends on the tyre some are harder than other. Use stans rim tape though and it should be fine. I personally dont have problems. With tubeless tyre though I have to use the VAR RP42500 lever set as standard levers just dont do the job.

ugo.santalucia

If a rim is too tight to fit a large number of tyres on the market, it should be treated as not fit for purpose. It's pointless to waste time fitting a tyre when you can do it in a few seconds with a different rim. Don't bother... you will always ride with anxiety, knowing you can't fix a flat on the road

bluemoon17

thecycleclinic wrote:

Depends on the tyre some are harder than other. Use stans rim tape though and it should be fine. I personally dont have problems. With tubeless tyre though I have to use the VAR RP42500 lever set as standard levers just dont do the job.

Ran Michelin Pro4 SC 25mm last Summer, but have also used Continental GP4000s II in the past. Think either of these will be a problem? The scenario that ugo describes is exactly the kind of thing that I'm trying to avoid.

cycleclinic

Conti GP4000s are fine for fitting (as are gatorskins folding tyres and GP 4 seasons) on Kinlin XR31T rims, they mount without difficulty. Never tried the Michelins as I don't buy them. Vittoria Pave's are easy to fit as well.

I do fit tyres quickly on these rims ugo so I don't know what you are on about. I mostly fit tubeless tyres to them though. Tubeless tyres are only tight on the first fitting. Once they have been mounted they stretch and it is alot easier if you ever have to remove and refit. That goes for any rim by the way. Even the H Plus Son Archetype has tyres that are not so easy/impossible to mount - challange strada bianca for example but it slips on with ease to the velocity aileron. There is only one rim where every tyre is a struggle and that is the ryde pulse comp.

There are only a few genuinely easy tyre rim combo's I have come across most tyre/rim combo's require some effort. nothing new in that.

So lets not over do the tyre fitting thing, half the problem and I know some will disagree is bad tyre fitting technique. chase the tyre round the rim to gather the slack and using your thumbs push on the bead with both ends of your thumbs touching while the rest of your hands are rolling the carcass over the rim. Works every time for me even when refitting a tubeless tyre (schwable one) on a v1 pacenti SL23 on a cold wet dark January evening last year after a sidewall cut (I won't say it was easy it was not but I did it without levers). I dont fit tyres every day and my hands are normal size and strength before anyone thinks differently.

by the way the Pacenti V1 SL23 is tighter rim for most tyres than the XR31T is that helps. It is similar to the V2 Sl23 for fitting of the tyres I have tried on both.

apreading

On my mountain bike, I always have a helluva job trying to get ANY tyre on stans rims, the crest in particular.

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

On my mountain bike, I always have a helluva job trying to get ANY tyre on stans rims, the crest in particular.

I did return a pair of Crest rims as it was impossible to fit anything smaller than 2.5 inches!

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

apreading wrote:

On my mountain bike, I always have a helluva job trying to get ANY tyre on stans rims, the crest in particular.

I did return a pair of Crest rims as it was impossible to fit anything smaller than 2.5 inches!

My 2p... (normal clinchers, not tried any tubeless)

Open pro - any tyre easy, no levers needed
DT RR440 - any tyre easy, no levers needed (with Continental, Schwalbe, Vittoria, Vredestein)
Exal XR2 - any tyre is a challenge. Generally need Var tyre lever. Some tyres you can forget about (Continental)

The Exal rim, whilst on the face of it a decent value budget rim, is one of those that causes a little worry for a puncture out on the road. It has a shallow internal profile i.e. quite flat which I think is the issue.

onyourright

I use the Exal XR2, which I rate highly (a lightweight, double-walled, double-eyeletted rim with wear indicator, actually made in Belgium, for under £20 sounds good to me, but I know it’s now fashionable to prefer wider rims).

It is certainly the hardest rim to fit tyres on I’ve ever used, but they go on with good technique. While it’s easier to work in your living room than the roadside, the other side of the coin is that you won’t give up so easily 50 km from home. I’ve managed to fit Michelin Pro4 Grip tyres on these rims by hand, even though that combination has to be one of the tightest around. Schwalbe One clinchers are far easier but still hard work.

The next time I get a puncture I’m going to try lubricating the tyre bead with water, trying to keep the rest of the tyre dry so my thumbs can grip it. I reckon this will help, and the water will later dry to avoid leaving any potentially unsafe residue (such as might be left by using other lubricants).

bikes`n`guns

Fitted today and as yet unsullied by crappy Scottish roads.

Wheelsmith. Aero 30 with Dura Ace hubs. Bontrager R3`s and Michelin latex tubes.

cannondalerun

Anyone had any experience of BORG31 from The Cycle Clinic ?

John

mrb123

The rims are Kinlin 31s. A bit more information about 5hem here.
http://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/which-rim/

mlgt

Im intending to purchase the borg31 set at some point, as above the details are linked to the kinlin 31's.

bluemoon17

mlgt wrote:

Im intending to purchase the borg31 set at some point, as above the details are linked to the kinlin 31's.

They are top of my list too, just debating what hubs to go for!

jdee84

Anyone think these wheels seem like a good deal?

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WPHEARDPTS ... n-wheelset

ugo.santalucia

jdee84 wrote:

Anyone think these wheels seem like a good deal?

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WPHEARDPTS ... n-wheelset

I think its their price... the full price is probably a Planet X invention