Handbuilt wheels... the big thread
Comments
-
Naysayers? Or healthy skeptics?
Internal rim widths*
Open Pro: 15mm
Archetype: 17mm
I'm happy to accept that the latter is stiffer, beautifully-made (although a fair bit heavier) and great for easy building of very lovely wheels, but the handling/tyre deflection hype?
The claim is that two millimetres wider makes so much difference to handling that a punter can tell the difference. Honestly?
Are we sure this is not just the classic halo effect of new kit?
As long as there is no proper scientific evidence of the marketed and hyped benefits of these specific features (eg such as internal width), then the healthy skeptics will always be sceptical.
By the way I plan to have a set of Archetype made, onto Miche or Novatech, and I look forward to a different ride (and appearance let's be honest) over my Open Pro/Excellight wheels, but I'm under no illusions that 2mm of extra rim width will be noticeable. If it is, I'll be right back here to report it.
It's good to see some grown-up debate on here for a change, let's not allow it to crumble into the usual "you disagree with me therefore you are wrong" default BikeRadar rule.
*Source: https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/reviews-and-testing/alloy-rim-roundup/0 -
Why?AThe other benefit wide rims has is on cornering grip. Due to the side walls being a bit straighter they do not flop as much under high load. The ammount of flex in a tyre sidewall is directly related to the ammount of lateral grip. Reduce the flex increase the grip.
Not much lateral grip is needed on a bicycle, since it leans. So the only lateral forces are those arising from the contact patch being slightly off-centre – by only a few millimetres.
If you simulate hard cornering with a narrow rim-and-tyre combo (at decent air pressure) by tilting it at 45° and pushing down on it hard, you’ll note that the tyre appears (from directly in line with the wheel) to bulge at both sides. This shows there isn’t very much flop actually happening.
Besides, any flop may act as suspension, keeping the tyre in better contact with the road. The only clear detriment I can imagine from flop is handling precision, and I don’t think this matters much, since the tyre is only about an inch wide and must therefore have far less movement than a car or motorcycle tyre anyway.
You're obvious wrong about the lateral grip....
Speed, weight and corner radius determine the demanded lateral grip, wether you lean or are upright not.
As we speak i'n toolazy to make a calculation for the sideways forces on the tyre......
The advantage of the wider rim in corners is dat the tyre stays more stable in form with LOWER PRESSURE.
Less sideways deformation > handling more predictable.
Besides that, lower pressure gives a wider contact patch> increased grip.
IMO the claimed aerodynamic aspects are far less interesting for us mortals.
I'm completely convinced by this concept, so I sold all my narrow wheels and build myself 3 wheelsets with wider rims.
Narrow rims are perfectly usable for lots of people, but when the ambition is cornering fast wider gives subtle
advantages.
PS I'm a extremely sceptical person and far behind lots of technical "improvements" but with rims I'm up-to-date.0 -
Naysayers? Or healthy skeptics?
Internal rim widths*
Open Pro: 15mm
Archetype: 17mm
I'm happy to accept that the latter is stiffer, beautifully-made (although a fair bit heavier) and great for easy building of very lovely wheels, but the handling/tyre deflection hype?
The claim is that two millimetres wider makes so much difference to handling that a punter can tell the difference. Honestly?
Or to put it another way, over 10% different. So yes a significant difference and one that's very obvious. I went from a 15mm internal width rim to a 17.8mm (measured) rim and the difference is not just obvious it's staggering. The shape of the tyre is very different and this is particularly noticeable in cornering.Trail fun - Transition Bandit
Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
Allround - Cotic Solaris0 -
Naysayers? Or healthy skeptics?
Internal rim widths*
Open Pro: 15mm
Archetype: 17mm
I'm happy to accept that the latter is stiffer, beautifully-made (although a fair bit heavier) and great for easy building of very lovely wheels, but the handling/tyre deflection hype?
The claim is that two millimetres wider makes so much difference to handling that a punter can tell the difference. Honestly?
Or to put it another way, over 10% different. So yes a significant difference and one that's very obvious. I went from a 15mm internal width rim to a 17.8mm (measured) rim and the difference is not just obvious it's staggering. The shape of the tyre is very different and this is particularly noticeable in cornering.
That's compelling stuff, I'll genuinely be excited (and converted to the wide-rim brigade) if I find the same result as I've already decided to get Archetypes sometime. Was your 17.8mm an Archetype or a different rim?0 -
Velocity A23 (there were no Archtypes of the right drilling in the UK at the time).
The bike handling is very much improved as the tyre shape is so much better and it's not "pinched" into the wheel so not trying to roll out all the time. (I was on 25s - Conti GP4S at the time of change)Trail fun - Transition Bandit
Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
Allround - Cotic Solaris0 -
Velocity A23 (there were no Archtypes of the right drilling in the UK at the time).
The bike handling is very much improved as the tyre shape is so much better and it's not "pinched" into the wheel so not trying to roll out all the time. (I was on 25s - Conti GP4S at the time of change)
I find the tyre itself seems to wear more homogeneously in a wide rim and "squares" less, meaning even a worn tyre offers decent handlingleft the forum March 20230 -
Velocity A23 (there were no Archtypes of the right drilling in the UK at the time).
The bike handling is very much improved as the tyre shape is so much better and it's not "pinched" into the wheel so not trying to roll out all the time. (I was on 25s - Conti GP4S at the time of change)
I find the tyre itself seems to wear more homogeneously in a wide rim and "squares" less, meaning even a worn tyre offers decent handling
I have to say that wear isn't something I've thought about too much but the fact that I haven't after a few thousand miles on my Pro4 E and still find the handling to be very smooth suggests that you are onto something!Trail fun - Transition Bandit
Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
Allround - Cotic Solaris0 -
If 2 mm internal difference makes no difference then moving from a 23 mm tyre to a 25mm tyre will make no difference also. In fact the 23mm tyre becomes a 25mm tyre on a wider rim some become 26mm wide (conti gp 4000s 23mm on a pacenti sl23 v2 or hed belgium+). here is a difference in measurable difference in tyre width and in tyre height and coupled with the change in tyre shape changes how the bike handles over rough roads and in bends. It is however not quite the same thing as putting a 25mm tyre on a narrower rim as the tyre shape is different.
The difference wide rims make is even more pronounced on mountain bikes. My mud plugging wheels set will have 35 mm wide rims with 45mm wide tyres (conti mud kings) that should come up a fair bit wider. Maximising air volume is really quite important when riding without suspension on such narrow tyres.
Ryde next year have a 25mm wide disc brake rim coming out with 21 or is 22mm internal width so ugo's prediction is right.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Velocity A23 (there were no Archtypes of the right drilling in the UK at the time).
The bike handling is very much improved as the tyre shape is so much better and it's not "pinched" into the wheel so not trying to roll out all the time. (I was on 25s - Conti GP4S at the time of change)
Okay, thanks for replying. That was on my rim shortlist too. I've been on 25c for years, GP4S and GP4000S/4000SII, so I'm already on quite fat tyres. I'm hoping my scepticism will be removed when I make the change!0 -
Morning all
I am set now on pacenti sl23 v2 and dura ace hubs.
I weigh 82 kg and don't kill kit particularly. My existing wheels are 18/24 spoke count.
Can I get away with 18/24 on the build, or do I have to accept 24/28 and a slight weight penalty?
thanks0 -
The weight penalty is trivial (about 50g across the set, depending on spoke/nipple choice). That said, I'm 80kg and have put a lot of miles on a set of 20/24 handbuilts without trouble. What spokes are you going to use?Morning all
I am set now on pacenti sl23 v2 and dura ace hubs.
I weigh 82 kg and don't kill kit particularly. My existing wheels are 18/24 spoke count.
Can I get away with 18/24 on the build, or do I have to accept 24/28 and a slight weight penalty?
thanks0 -
Thinking sapim cx ray spokes0
-
what are the opinions on nipple washers?0
-
what are the opinions on nipple washers?
Sapim are pretty much the only ones you can buy... They are sold as stainless, but I don't think they are actually made of stainless steel. They seem to rust pretty badly for "stainless steel"... I would only use them on "summer wheels". If a rim requires nipple washers, it's probably not worth building it anyway. They are also a royal PITA to get out of the rims if you need toleft the forum March 20230 -
what are the opinions on nipple washers?
For a build that I did'n't trust without them I bought simple 8x4 mm (inner hole) stainless steel washers at the hardware store.
Spoke length came 1 mm longer which was favourable...
After six months and 5000 km's no problems.0 -
18/24 strikes me as a bit brave, although CX-Rays are strong. I'd be inclined to go 20/24 as a minimum, assuming radial front and 2x rear. (or 2x DS and radial NDS, I suppose).Thinking sapim cx ray spokes0 -
am i being stupid thinking the following:
In the same way that an old fork can be used as a make shift(not particularly great)
truing stand/wheel construction/tub gluing stand for a front wheel - a turbo can be used for the rear? I don't have a turbo (which is why i am a little uncertain) .... but two birds with one stone?0 -
18f/24R is not that brave. Got a 20f/24R set with the v1 rims and still waiting for the rear rim to cracking. Received wisdom says it should but I somehow have only had two calls about this out of lots of pacenti rims used. The new rim has a thicker spoke nipped bed, 1mm thicker it think so that should not be problem any more. Tension the rear to 1200N max ds. The v1 rim had a practical limit of 1150N which is kind of obvious when you look at the spoke nipped bed.
Ugo is right if a rim needs nipped washer use a different rim. Rims crack because the spoke nipped bed is too thin for the spoke tension used, the spoke count used and the rider weight. Washers are a waste of time. Never used them, never seen the need.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
My idea to build up a nice wheelset has been replaced by a new bike (for the winter and commuting). Still keen to try tubeless and I was wondering if you could give me your opinion about this cheap wheelset: http://www.merlincycles.com/pro-build-chosen-hub-alex-cx28-road-cx-wheel-700c-81726.html
Thanks0 -
Rear+front 160£ friend....
Specs look good anyway, I certainly would consider buying them.0 -
I was not thinking to buy them, but I would like to know the opinion of the forum on the Chosen Hubs. Thanks
0 -
Nothing wrong with Chosen hubs, standard Taiwan cartridge bearing hubs.0
-
Are the free hubs readily available though.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
-
Malcolm/cycle clinic
Taking on board what you mentioned on the kinlin xr31t rim. If I paired this with miche primato hubs so as to not break the bank, would this make potentially a fast and stiff wheelset for racing?
I'd probably go 20/24 drilling with cx-Ray. If you've done a very similar build to this, how much am I looking cost and weight? Ballpark figures are fine.
Apologies, couldn't find similar on your site.
Thanks0 -
Not much lateral grip is needed on a bicycle, since it leans. So the only lateral forces are those arising from the contact patch being slightly off-centre – by only a few millimetres.
If you simulate hard cornering with a narrow rim-and-tyre combo (at decent air pressure) by tilting it at 45° and pushing down on it hard, you’ll note that the tyre appears (from directly in line with the wheel) to bulge at both sides. This shows there isn’t very much flop actually happening.
Besides, any flop may act as suspension, keeping the tyre in better contact with the road. The only clear detriment I can imagine from flop is handling precision, and I don’t think this matters much, since the tyre is only about an inch wide and must therefore have far less movement than a car or motorcycle tyre anyway.Exept at very high speeds and a yaw angle of 90-180 degr. the apparent wind is always incoming at 30 degr or lower.
The interesting thing about this paper is that it shows that the yaw angle (by which they mean apparent angle of the wind) in cycling is usually much lower than 30°.
The intuitive reason for this is simple: we usually ride much faster than the wind speed, and the wind direction relative to our direction usually isn’t 90° (where the crosswind component is maximised).
Here’s a link again in case anyone missed it. I have no idea who this lot are but they present a compelling argument that the industry has led us astray with fancy graphs showing low drag values at 20° yaw angles.
Just wanted to say, spot on with this, the lateral forces are low for exactly the reasons you describe: tyre-flop as I see it is a non issue. This is also why the whole angular contact bearing thing is a red-herring too. I remember having a similar debate a while ago on here (basically arguing that a 32 spoke "classic" rim with 25mm tyres was essentially as good as a modern wide rim with 23mm tyres for most practical applications, and a good sight cheaper), glad to see I'm not the only one who things this (with good engineering justification too!). viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13020726&start=100
Keezx - the misunderstanding here (re your comment about lateral loads) is to do with frames of reference. Yes, there are high lateral loads in an absolute frame of reference. But in a frame of reference local to the bike (i.e. as the bike leans, "lateral" is perpendicular to the plane of the wheel) then the lateral loads are low.0 -
Well , try it and notice what you feel.
The"feel" is just the thing that makes the difference regarding relative wider rims , no variations in grip that makes faster cornering possible.
Always with lower pressure in mind, at 8 Bar it makes no difference, but which fool rides 25 mm at 8 Bar?0 -
What ever the reason wider rims change the tyre profile this in turn improving grip in the bends. I know what i feel and k am not the only one. The exact reason will be a combination of factors and may be due to decreased side wall flex but also the contact patch will be different due to the tyre shape. Perhaps it is better to say contact patch shape will be different when cornering and leave it at that.
Xr31t with miche hubs would be very stiff. The off set rim for the rear is the best option. I will build a set tomorrow as I want to find out what tubeless tyre set up is like on them.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Well , try it and notice what you feel.
The"feel" is just the thing that makes the difference regarding relative wider rims , no variations in grip that makes faster cornering possible.
Always with lower pressure in mind, at 8 Bar it makes no difference, but which fool rides 25 mm at 8 Bar?
I have both wide and regular wheelsets, and I ride tubs too. If sidewall stiffness was so important, why do ultra-supple tubs corner the best?
The primary effect of wide rims is increased tyre volume/lower pressures (and this has a meaningful impact), but you get largely the same effect using a wider tyre on a narrower rim. There are other benefits to wide rims but they're not a must-have for most people.0 -
Because as anyone that rides/races motorbikes will tell you it's not about stiffness of the sidewall at all, it's about how well the tyre deforms to give you the best contact patch on the road whilst still staying attached to the wheel!Trail fun - Transition Bandit
Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
Allround - Cotic Solaris0 -
[quote="djaeggi
I have both wide and regular wheelsets, and I ride tubs too. If sidewall stiffness was so important, why do ultra-supple tubs corner the best?
The primary effect of wide rims is increased tyre volume/lower pressures (and this has a meaningful impact), but you get largely the same effect using a wider tyre on a narrower rim. There are other benefits to wide rims but they're not a must-have for most people.[/quote]
It's not about sidewall stiffness , it's the sideway deformation that makes a difference.
Lateral movement of the tread related to the rim, basically simple geometry.0
