Handbuilt wheels... the big thread
Comments
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The rim profile is more aerodynamic too that works at any speed but is going to be pretty marginal/pointless for those that use disc brake bikes for commuting.
24 spokes seem to enough for the aileron rim. I am commuting on them 200 miles a week at the moment. Early days but already I have dented the rim on some steps out side my house but that was my fault. so if 24 spokes are not enough for a 84kg rider kitted up with a rack and rack bag stuffed with the days kit I will find out. I suspect I will be o.k.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
The rim profile is more aerodynamic too that works at any speed but is going to be pretty marginal/pointless for those that use disc brake bikes for commuting.
24 spokes seem to enough for the aileron rim. I am commuting on them 200 miles a week at the moment. Early days but already I have dented the rim on some steps out side my house but that was my fault. so if 24 spokes are not enough for a 84kg rider kitted up with a rack and rack bag stuffed with the days kit I will find out. I suspect I will be o.k.
glad i posted this for you as i am considering them, and i am a similar weight to you, whilst it is not much extra weight - it would be interesting how 24/24 would compare with 28/28.
Would your test findings of this clincher rim, also apply to the 320g tubular version, in terms of its strength/stiffness and capability to take 24/24 over 28/28?0 -
often see builds and recommendations for the 712D/711D -
other than the slightly more easy conversion from QR to TA of the Front with the Novatech
How's the comparison with DT350 ? and how is the comparison with DT240 ?
I have experience with chosen (seem pretty similar to novatech?) and ultegra cup and cone0 -
DT Swiss hubs are supremely reliable. Novatec D711/D712 hubs are simply reliable. The 240's are lighter and will give the longest bearing life of any hub except maybe Chris king or Royce. the D711 cannot be converted to 15mm thru axle the D772 can (there is the D711XD which maybe an exception).
Wheel strength is not affect by spoke count wheel stiffness is. A 24 spoke wheel with the aileron rim and CX-rays is already very stiff add 4 more spoke and it is a bit stiffer. I cant say I notice flex on mine but then again I dont notice flex on any of my wheels that I ride. "wheel flex" is as much a function of rim depth as it is spoke count, spoke gauge e.t.c. deeper rim move more at the brake track for a given side load than shallower rim should the lateral wheel stiffness of both wheels is the same which is not often the case. Therefore flex is a poor indication of how stiff a wheel is. Even a set of stiff Zipp carbon wheels move alot at the brake track if you push the rim by hand but when riding they dont move that much.
Having a "stronger" wheel won't stop a rim denting if you ride down some steps. What does someone do with a "stronger" wheel jump up and down on it and hope it survives? I am not trying to be funny but the word strong means how much load it take before it breaks. That is something you don't want to do to a good spoked wheel as the loads needed on any spoke wheel to break a spoke (taco the rim) are so huge it would need a crash you don't want to be involved in. What you are on about is resistance to spoke fatigue which has nothing to do with strength but is influence by rider weight, road conditions, spoke count, spoke diameter, rim stiffness, radial, torsional and lateral wheel stiffness should I go on?
There is no tubular version of the aileron what are you on about?
28F/28R is sensible for disc brake wheels with double butted spokes like sapim Race or CX-rays/laser if you want to shave weight. 24F/24R can work but for very long spoke life a spoke with a 2.2mm or 2.3mm diameter at the elbow would be best. Sapim force or Sapim CX-force would be ideal but these are special order OEM spokes from Sapim and I met a sapim rep yesterday and we discussed just this.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Thanks for all the explanation, when i meant how the tubular would compare to the clincher - it was in the context of you saying you were going to get a kappius carbon clincher - I wondered how the tubular version of the same rim (kappius) would compare.
One the same subject as the Kappius Tubular
- just trying to get my head around how strength (relating to reducing spoke fatigue) is impacted in the following - it goes without saying that i have very little engineering/physics understanding of the properties of carbon/resin
Kappius Tubular = 320g 35mm Deep 25mm wide
Mavic Carbon SL Pro Disc Tubular = 320g 25mm Deep 23mm wide (i think)
I have heard (perhaps wrongly understood) that a deeper rim, produces a stiffer wheel
- which i interpreted as reducing spoke fatigue.
Would we be comparing applies to oranges with these two rims? Forget the difficult servicing the Mavic, Forget the Aero benefits. Granted I know nothing about the different types of carbon used, but the comparison interests me (is the Mavic more dense? would the mavic be stiffer in this instance? Less fragile).
As before, it goes without saying that I am make blind guesses and assertions - and have no idea how the two would compare....
but we got out wires crossed becuase in the context of you saying you were going to get a kappius that i linked you also starting talking about the Aileron.
No Foul.0 -
Generally the deeper the rim and the wider the rim (shape is important too) the stiffer it gets and the longer spoke life normally is. wall thickness is important too.
The kappius rim is the best one I have seen there are very few to choose from with carbon. and brady sent me a price list today. The material in the mavic rim will not be denser but the wall thickness at various point maybe thicker. Difficult to know unless some one does a cross section which is not likely given the price of the rims.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Pretty much decided on pacenti sl23 rims. The 2015 version have a narrower brake track that is slightly narrower than average. Fairwheels bikes suggest a kool stop pad to support this. Are people running this rim with regular stock shimano or sram pads? Surely normal pads should fit and be set up easily enough?!
Cheers
Ross0 -
I think you can use normal pads but it is more tricky setting them up. However look stop pads are ace so why not.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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I'm running them with stock Campag pads with no issues. You just need to be careful when setting the brakes up. The track is indeed narrow.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19710952#p19710952]thebadgerboy1982[/url] wrote:Pretty much decided on pacenti sl23 rims. The 2015 version have a narrower brake track that is slightly narrower than average. Fairwheels bikes suggest a kool stop pad to support this. Are people running this rim with regular stock shimano or sram pads? Surely normal pads should fit and be set up easily enough?!
Cheers
Ross0 -
Forgive me if this has already been suggested in this enormous thread, but what about something tried and tested, like Ambrosio Excellence with Ultegra hubs? Or, something like Open Pro with Record hubs? Depending on your groupset, these combinations are tried and tested and served me well for many years. I know some people on the forum talk about the new rims (H Plus Son, Velocity etc.) but in my opinion most of these look of a poorer quality to the Ambrosio and Mavic rims. I know they appear modern, but they don't do anything for me, and the Excellence and Open Pro rims I have used for commuting and winter riding have been first class. I know it's old fashioned, but 32 spokes on a good quality aluminium low profile rim, and a decent hub is the way forward.0
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Using narrow and shallow rims is a bit like driving around on tyres from 30 years ago (like the tyres made for 1980's metric rims for BMW's 528i's and M535i's and the like I have used these and they are rubbish next to modern tyres from conti and the like on the same car) when modern car tyres are so much better. The ambrosio rims and mavic open pro have been around for a long time while they work as rims a wider slightly deeper rim offers so much more. Longer spoke life, improved handling, improved ride comfort the list goes on.
the H plus son rim is not a poor quality rim in fact it is more consistant in QC than a open Pro. Ambrosio clincher rims are no better. ambrosio make one good rim - the nemesis. Everything else they make is not exactly special anymore.
Have you actually tried a modern wide rim and done a good few miles on it. Your post seems to suggest you have not in fact you are rubbishing something before you have even tried it.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
First of all, I said that in my opinion the modern rims 'look' poorer quality, I didn't say they rode poorly, so I don't see how I have 'rubbished' anything. The term 'rubbished' seemed a bit extreme in this case, but there you go, life's about opinions, providing we are all allowed them. Secondly, I simply offered supporting evidence of how good the Mavic and Ambrosio rims had been for me. I can only say how I see it.0
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H plus son to tb14 is wide and shallow. Looks good and a far better rim than the open pro to build with and ride. I build a lot of wheels and if some wants the open pro I know the build will take a hour longer than with a modern rim. Why because it so flexible it takes a while to get the wheel stable after stressing it.
The finish on the archetype is perfect as well. These two rims come in polished silver if you like that I do got a set.
Do Swiss rr440 is the same shape as an open pro 2 mm deeper so still shallow but unlike the open pro it is actually quite stiff and is tubeless compatible too. So there is a rim you might like. It is not that wide though but wider than the magic.
The open pro was good in its day like my BMW e34 500 from 1989, however a modern car is quicker and more fuel efficient in many ways better. Things move on sometimes it is right to try new things you never know you might actually like them.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Detailed response from the Cycle Clinic, and very well argued. I would point out that my my views re H Plus Son Archetypes and Velocity rims are supported by the observations of Strada Wheels and their issues with these rims. However, i appreciate the views of others too. Newer doesn't always mean better, and sometimes these things are 'change' as opposed to 'progress'. What I would say is that the TB14 looks very nice, but it seems to be a copy of a great rim; this being the Nemesis. If you (Cycle Clinic) are looking for modernity, why handbuilts? Most cyclists I know have abandoned handbuilts for factory wheels, so, if you are opting for the newest and lightest out there, why not go for factory? I have tried factory wheels and some are brilliant, so please don't think that I am some dinosaur stuck in the 19th century. It seems to be a strange argument; a shop building handbuilts trying to push the 21st century button regarding a skill that was first perfected in the 19th century!!!! Anyway, I am happy with the Op and Excellence rims (as are numerous wheel builders and riders), and once the H Plus Son rims have proved themselves over 30 odd years, I may reconsider. I respect your views, but in this case, I am happy with my lot. I am now off to read my favourite book; The Emperors New Clothes.0
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Most cyclists I know have abandoned handbuilts for factory wheels, so, if you are opting for the newest and lightest out there, why not go for factory? I have tried factory wheels and some are brilliant, so please don't think that I am some dinosaur stuck in the 19th century. It seems to be a strange argument; a shop building handbuilts trying to push the 21st century button regarding a skill that was first perfected in the 19th century!!!!
Absolute tosh, sorry.
Most cyclists have abandoned handbuilt for factory wheels, the same way that most people have abandoned tailored suits for off the peg - availability, ease of purchase, perhaps cost, ignorance and laziness.
Some off the peg suits will be great, but ALL tailored suits should be, if put together by a skilled tailor that listens to what the customer wants, is skilful at their job and uses the best materials.
Just because they are constructing using the time honored techniques, doesnt mean they shouldnt use modern material if it is better than older stuff.
Its also easier to get handbuilt wheels repaired often because factory builds use parts that arent always easy to source, so you end up chucking the whole wheel very often because of something simple. Now that might not be such an issue for rim brake wheels because they need replacing anyway, but with discs a good wheel could go on forever, albeit with some spokes being replaced eventually due to old age.0 -
I think all rims on the market are pretty good and there is not much difference between them in terms of quality... mostly details, that don't change a thing.
You can try and source some 80-early 90s rims for comparison and see what kind of crap they were building back then... mostly unbalanced, some had terrible braking surface (Wolber profil, but also Campagnolo Omega V) pretty much all were too light to be stiff and required 36 spokes or too heavy and dull to go on a race bike.
As far as technological advance goes, there has hardly been any... alloy rims are still extruded/bent/joined, while carbon rims are moulded, same as 20 years ago, so nobody has reinvented the wheel, as far as I can see.
The problem with handbuilds is that they struggle to be competitive in price in a very aggressive market. When factory wheels are always offered at half the retail price, what can you build for 200 pounds including overheads to match a pair of Zonda?
The factory world took a while to catch up with the idea of wider, yet lighter rims and was skeptical on tubeless, hence handbuilts gained some ground over the past 5 years or so, but now that you can buy wide Fulcrum and lots of tubeless ready wheels, dedicated rim makers like Velocity, Pacenti, Stans and H plus Son need to come up with something innovative again. Problem is, as I understand, the latter is ran by a spoiled kid who recently got into DJing in Shangai and they haven't come up with a new extrusion for a few years now, capitalising on the success of one product only in a range of 7. Last year BLB imported 6 shipping containers of Archetype rims, that's a hell of a lot of Archetype... now that everybody have a pair of Archetype, what's left?left the forum March 20230 -
Apologies for going off at a tangent to this debate, but I've got a quick question about hubs.
I've recently bought a pair of Novatec D711SB / D712SB hubs for a build. I've seen them advertised as 11 speed in the past and thought nothing of ordering them but then I mailed the seller to check they were infact 11 speed and he seems to think they're only 10.
Having done some more digging it seems as though they can be either 10 or 11 speed depending on the freehub, is it simply a matter of which freehub they've been shipped with? and is it safe to assume they'll be 10 speed unless specifically advertised as 11 speed?
Thanks.
EDIT: It looks as though I can buy a pair that are 11 speed for about £95, or get a set of 771/772 for about £105... I only paid £60 for the set I bought, are the 771/772 better hubs? Or am I probably just as well off getting a freehub for the 711/712 for 30 quid?0 -
just swap the freehub to make it 11 speed. The D771/D772 is convertable to various axle standards and SRAM XD drivers that what you get.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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I think handbuilts persist for four reasons:
1. Early adoption. I built a number of lightweight Stans ZTR340-based wheelsets a year or two ago, because it was the only way you could get below 1400g and run road tubeless for less than £450. Now there is a number of factory wheelsets at or around this weight with tubeless compatibility and at not dissimilar pricing, so it's less attractive. Now "conventional" wheelsets tend to be built with Pacenti SL23, to give wide tubeless while we wait again for the factories to catch up with the new trend.
2. Mid-range price economics. Factory replacement parts (especially for Shimano) are expensive, and can be hard to source. So if you plan to use a wheelset for a long time, it can make sense to go handbuilt so that the rim can be replaced in due course. However, most people who are enthusiastic enough to know about hand-built wheels in the first place probably replace their wheels (for bling or supposed performance-gain reasons) long before they wear them out. Down at the budget end, it makes no sense when a new wheelset is almost free (c.f. Shimano R501 at £70 the set) and up at the top end, in the unlikely event anyone would wear out a set of e.g. Enve 45s before buying the next shiny thing, you can buy a whole new wheelset on Chris King for less than the cost of replacement rims.
3. Specific needs - I've built some dynamo wheelsets this year (1 x H+Son on SP, 1 x Ambrioso SSC on SP and 1 x Pacenti SL23 on Son Delux); all for Audax - two of the sets did PBP. All built for strength and ease of maintenance, and (apart from the third set, which is mine) all built to a tight budget. There's not much of a market in factory dynamo wheels; same for Powertap. I'm also talking to a couple of people about super-exotic builds (AX Lightness/Enve on Extralite for example); you can buy lighter (and sometimes, in my view) better wheelsets ex-factory, but sometimes people want something unique or are very particular about component choice.
4. Traditionalism. If you want Ambrosio Nemesis tubular on Record, you have to have them built. You only want that kind of wheelset if you're building a classic-look bike, or riding the Eroica or something similar.
I build wheels, in a small way; despite that, I have a lot of factory wheels because none of the above applied. As follows:
Enve 45 on Chris King R45 - can't build anything like it for less (or even the same money)
Mavic R-SYS SLR - can't build a 1200g alloy-braked tub wheelset (at all, I think, but certainly not to the same strength for that price)
DT Swiss RR425/525RR - can't build a 990g aero wheelset for the price (and bought them used, so applies double)
Vision TC24 tubular - not a particularly good wheel, but sub 1200g for peanuts (they were almost giving them away; I think I paid £450 for the set new); doubt I could get close even with Novatec hubs (which would be an improvement!) and Chinese rims.
Zipp 808 - moot, this. If I could buy the rims for sensible money, it might have made sense to build a set with hubs not made of chocolate (these are on V7 hubs). Again bought used, though, so not a fair comparison.
Kinesis Crosslight V3 - impossible to build anything better for the price. If I used the bike more, I might look at doing something with Pacenti SL25s, but it would probably be heavier, and would certainly cost more.
My own handbuilts all fit the pattern above:
Stans ZTR340 20/24 on Novatec SB-SL - sub 1400g tubeless with rims it's worth replacing when they wear out. Used for commuting, so wearing faster than a group-ride set would.
Ambrosio Nemesis tubular on Record 32 3x - for my classic steel. Heavy, old-fashioned but just the right wheel for that bike.
Pacenti SL23 on Son Delux dynamo front, Record rear; again 32 3x. Audax wheels. Heavy, but roll well and tubeless (which is completely brilliant for that kind of riding since it shrugs off most punctures) and of course dynamo.0 -
Thanks, that makes my life easier as I don't have to return the one's I've bought!just swap the freehub to make it 11 speed. The D771/D772 is convertable to various axle standards and SRAM XD drivers that what you get.0 -
One paper showing a different result does not mean we should all change. I often am not riding into a head wind therefore yaw angles of 30 degrees are common. In fact a 10 to 40 degree yaw angle is quite common for wheels.
The reason why wider rim work even in head winds is the tyre to rim transition is flatter. With a narrow rim and a 25mm tyre you end up with turbulence as the air passed the tyre. wider rims try to solve that problem and therefore reduce drag o in a head wind it end up being the same as a narrow rim with narrow tyres. increase the yaw angle and that all changes. that paper needs a good read but is theoretical rather than based on empirical testing. There maybe something they have overlooked. I will try to understand it all and post back.
narrow tyres have the following main problem. Our roads are not smooth. Therefore a cyclist will be slower than with a wider tyre.
nothing wrong with 32 spokes in a wheel. but I have a old vitus with mavic CXP14 rims and continetnal GP4000s 23mm tyres. The ride is O.K but compared to a set of 32 spoke archetypes with 27mm tyres it is awful. I am quicker on the higher spoke archetypes on the roads we have than on the more aero mavic rimmed wheels and that is down to the roads also the ride on the archetypes is more enjoyable. the mavic are in there as I have a mavic groupset on the bike and I am trying to keep it nearly entirely French.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Thanks, that makes my life easier as I don't have to return the one's I've bought!just swap the freehub to make it 11 speed. The D771/D772 is convertable to various axle standards and SRAM XD drivers that what you get.
Have a care before you splash out
According to the BDOP website you CANNOT convert a 10 speed hub to 11-speed by swapping the freehubs. Note on this webpage in the strapline above the list of freehubs. Unless something has changed recently the situation still persists. Something to do with the axle length on the 10-speed hubs I believe.
http://www.bdopcycling.com/Wheel%20Parts-FREEHUBS%2011SPD.asp
Some time ago I recall a thread where Ugo showed how he managed to convert a 10-speed hub to accept an 11-speed cassette. Involved a bit of judicious filing and grinding if I recall. Description here if you fancy the challenge:-
http://whosatthewheel.com/2015/01/29/the-11-speed-switchover/0 -
2. Mid-range price economics. Factory replacement parts (especially for Shimano) are expensive, and can be hard to source. So if you plan to use a wheelset for a long time, it can make sense to go handbuilt so that the rim can be replaced in due course. However, most people who are enthusiastic enough to know about hand-built wheels in the first place probably replace their wheels (for bling or supposed performance-gain reasons) long before they wear them out. Down at the budget end, it makes no sense when a new wheelset is almost free (c.f. Shimano R501 at £70 the set) and up at the top end, in the unlikely event anyone would wear out a set of e.g. Enve 45s before buying the next shiny thing, you can buy a whole new wheelset on Chris King for less than the cost of replacement rims.
It makes sense to you and me, but despite 99% of people aspiring to an environmentally friendly world where things get fixed and worn parts replaced, the vast majority still (even given the choice) opt to throw away and buy something new. It's the upgrade fever: while new rims to replace worn ones won't set the world on fire, a new and different set of wheels might make your everyday miserable life less miserable for a while... it's consumerism, something we have grown up int. Manufacturers dig deep into this, offering every year a new version of the same shot and only occasionally something marginally different. Wheel builders have to adapt, you see more and more offering their own stickers, which change year on year, to give the impression of something new... but to be honest large corporations are better equipped at brandingleft the forum March 20230 -
The BDOP website is wrong. I have converted many 10 speed D772 or D712 hubs to 11 speed. Works without issue other wise I would not have posted this. Anything bought recently D771 or D712 will have a type B2 body on it whether it is 10 or 11 speed. I think the change happened when the end cap where changed a couple of years back and the seals changed. The actual freehub I am sure is the same for the Type B1 or Type B2 but the seals and end caps needed differ. I am also sure I have fitted a Type B2 body to a hub with a Type B1 freehub without issue so the article is inaccurate.
Branding sadly sells. Branding tells you nothing about the product though just that it is branded. It is the way of the world and we have to go with the flow to some extent.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Branding sadly sells. Branding tells you nothing about the product though just that it is branded. It is the way of the world and we have to go with the flow to some extent.
You should get some nice stickers done... just please, don't design them yourself...
left the forum March 20230 -
Sure. It is also economics, though. Parts pricing for handbuilts makes it impossible to compete at the lower end - I mean Shimano 501s are £70 on Wiggle right now, Khamsins are £100 and Aksium One disc wheels are £140. I can't buy the parts to build an equivalent wheelset for less than twice those prices, and it means you just treat the wheels as a consumable. They're all perfectly decent (if a little heavy), strong wheelsets, and they'll all come true and evenly tensioned, these days. The 501s at least also use regular j-bend spokes, so you don't even have that excuse.It makes sense to you and me, but despite 99% of people aspiring to an environmentally friendly world where things get fixed and worn parts replaced, the vast majority still (even given the choice) opt to throw away and buy something new. It's the upgrade fever: while new rims to replace worn ones won't set the world on fire, a new and different set of wheels might make your everyday miserable life less miserable for a while... it's consumerism, something we have grown up int. Manufacturers dig deep into this, offering every year a new version of the same shot and only occasionally something marginally different. Wheel builders have to adapt, you see more and more offering their own stickers, which change year on year, to give the impression of something new... but to be honest large corporations are better equipped at branding
For me it's the mid-price (£400-£800) bracket where handbuilding still makes sense. Mostly because factory wheels in this area have so many stupid "features". I trued a set of Fulcrum Racing 1s yesterday. Non-standard nipples, external only and the manufacturer-supplied spoke key is a *very* tight fit. Aluminium spokes (much softer than Mavic Zicral) so you have to be incredibly careful not to twist them, but aluminium nipples too, so everything seizes up. Insane replacement parts pricing, too, and hard to source (e.g. you can get replacement races, in theory, but I bet no-one ever does). Exotic spoke pattern (2:1 rear) and low spoke count, so compensating for a seized spoke is hard. Horrid things. I'd much rather have SL23s on DT Swiss 240 or Dura-Ace with CX-Rays for my £600 or so.0 -
For me it's the mid-price (£400-£800) bracket where handbuilding still makes sense. Mostly because factory wheels in this area have so many stupid "features". I trued a set of Fulcrum Racing 1s yesterday. Non-standard nipples, external only and the manufacturer-supplied spoke key is a *very* tight fit. Aluminium spokes (much softer than Mavic Zicral) so you have to be incredibly careful not to twist them, but aluminium nipples too, so everything seizes up. Insane replacement parts pricing, too, and hard to source (e.g. you can get replacement races, in theory, but I bet no-one ever does). Exotic spoke pattern (2:1 rear) and low spoke count, so compensating for a seized spoke is hard. Horrid things. I'd much rather have SL23s on DT Swiss 240 or Dura-Ace with CX-Rays for my £600 or so.
I know... the R3 have the same issues
but for one person who regrets buying a product that is "hard to fix" you have ten who are happy to flog them on Ebay, passing the problem down the line and buy themselves something newleft the forum March 20230 -
Aerodynamic drag is is dependent on frontal area but also the drag coefficient and the shape with the smallest frontal area is not always the one with the lowest Cd. So it is the CdA part of the aero formula that needs to be low and that I do believe because there is evidence to back it up is minimised by the use of a wider rim. A wider rim allows a profile that is just not possible with a narrower rim unless that rim is shallower.
At zero degrees yaw angle a v shaped rim is as good as a similar depth wide rim that much is known. I think the link to the pr results does show an increase in pace over the last few years but that is due to a combination of factors. The other benefit wide rims has is on cornering grip. Due to the side walls being a bit straighter they do not flop as much under high load. The ammount of flex in a tyre sidewall is directly related to the ammount of lateral grip. Reduce the flex increase the grip.
I think this is what the paper is missing it is focusing on yaw angles alone which is only part of the story. I ride solo more than I ride in a group, the joys of commuting and training and even in a group the restrictions on road space and group etiquette mean I am directly behind someone not to the side but if I think of the wind direction it is rarely dead ahead it is normally to side that's a yaw angle right and it is not 5 degrees.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
One remark about yaw angles:
We have to distinguish between real wind and apparent wind, in streetwords the faster you go, the smaller the yaw angle, that's why riders in a fast group ride mostely inline after each other.
Exept at very low speeds and a yaw angle of 90-180 degr. the apparent wind is always incoming at 30 degr or lower.
(At ice sailing devices the boom always is midship due to the very small yaw angle of the apparent wind)0 -
All of the improvements in rim design, frame design e.t.c. to are all marginal gains. Added together they become something tangible by themselves they marginal. You don't have to have them to enjoy riding far from it but if you are competing and competitive it helps a bit. The posts above would have anyone believe it is all pointless. On that basis I should be as quick on the local trails on my 1992 Scott pro racing kitted out as it could have been in 1992. However if I ride my modern 29er it is not even a contest. Both bikes are rigid by the way i dont do suspension. Same goes for a road ride on my 1980 Alan kitted out as it could have been in 1980 or as close as I can be bothered to get it, I am a lot quicker on my race bike. My race bike by the way is an early 90's steel frame with modern equipment including wheels.
Riding is enjoyable on all those bikes but it depends what you want to do.
Weather it is side wall flex or not or the extra air volume, I can corner more confidently on wider rims with the same tyres than I can on narrower rim with the same tyres on the same bike. I am not the only one who has noticed this. Some have not but that maybe how fast they are willing to go into a corner.
So the naysayers are trying to agrue the point with someone who has many old bikes with lots of kit from the 90's so I see the difference against more modern kit in the same frame.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
