Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Or use the archetype rim. Lighter and stiffer. Better made too.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    Ok, I think i've worn the rims out on my wheelset. Can someone recommend some new rims ta?
    Currently have 5700 hubs on Excellight rims. Strung together with 32 butted spokes of some description and brass nipples; bought from planet-x for the princely sum of £179 a couple of years ago.

    Going on my Ribble R872 so would prefer something a bit deeper section (for bling factor alone) but not too drastic. Brake track life is important to me as I also use for my daily commute in all weathers.

    I suppose I will need some new spokes but not bothered about bladed unless only a slight premium over butted.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19678114#p19678114]darkhairedlord[/url] wrote:
    Ok, I think i've worn the rims out on my wheelset. Can someone recommend some new rims ta?
    Currently have 5700 hubs on Excellight rims. Strung together with 32 butted spokes of some description and brass nipples; bought from planet-x for the princely sum of £179 a couple of years ago.

    Going on my Ribble R872 so would prefer something a bit deeper section (for bling factor alone) but not too drastic. Brake track life is important to me as I also use for my daily commute in all weathers.

    I suppose I will need some new spokes but not bothered about bladed unless only a slight premium over butted.

    For something deeper, you need new spokes, so you will only save a pair of hubs worth 50 quid when new... or... you can replace with a pair of Open PRO, keep the spokes for a more economical solution. Excellight are currently too expensive
    left the forum March 2023
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19678149#p19678149]ugo.santalucia[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19678114#p19678114]darkhairedlord[/url] wrote:
    Ok, I think i've worn the rims out on my wheelset. Can someone recommend some new rims ta?
    Currently have 5700 hubs on Excellight rims. Strung together with 32 butted spokes of some description and brass nipples; bought from planet-x for the princely sum of £179 a couple of years ago.

    Going on my Ribble R872 so would prefer something a bit deeper section (for bling factor alone) but not too drastic. Brake track life is important to me as I also use for my daily commute in all weathers.

    I suppose I will need some new spokes but not bothered about bladed unless only a slight premium over butted.

    For something deeper, you need new spokes, so you will only save a pair of hubs worth 50 quid when new... or... you can replace with a pair of Open PRO, keep the spokes for a more economical solution. Excellight are currently too expensive
    ta, i'll look into some open pro's... fnarr fnarr..
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Velocity A23 has a close enough ERD to the excellight to work as a replacement.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19679689#p19679689]thecycleclinic[/url] wrote:
    Velocity A23 has a close enough ERD to the excellight to work as a replacement.
    This is nice to know, if only I had swapped the pads when I fitted the 5800 brakes I might not be in this position!
  • tom3
    tom3 Posts: 287
    Id like some advice on handbuilt wheels for next seasons racing. I am a cat 3.

    This year I have raced on syncros rr2.0, I weigh around 80kg and I think they have a 18/14 spoke count. Nothing wrong with them really, I don't kill kit and the wheels seem to have held up well. I would like to drop a bit of weight and pick up/rolling speed to be increased. I've noticed the syncros seem lifeless when in the bunch, so will probably just train on them.

    I have been looking at the Pacenti SL23 v2 rim, laced on dura ace with sapim cx ray spokes as one option. Not entirely sure on the best spoke count as I am in between 18/24 or 24/28. Id say im looking at about £600 ish for this build? I would run these with tubes and either schwalbe ones or conti gp 4000 2 both 25mm.

    I have a hankering carbon clinchers around the 38mm to 45mm mark. To be honest I want to know if they would let me cheat a little at high speeds in the bunch compared to the Pacenti rim. However, given my budget I just wondered a cheaper set of handbuilt carbon clinchers or something like the cero rc45 would compare to the Pacenti build above.

    My preference would not be to touch a Chinese carbon clincher.

    thanks
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19679895#p19679895]tom3[/url] wrote:
    Id like some advice on handbuilt wheels for next seasons racing. I am a cat 3.

    This year I have raced on syncros rr2.0, I weigh around 80kg and I think they have a 18/14 spoke count. Nothing wrong with them really, I don't kill kit and the wheels seem to have held up well. I would like to drop a bit of weight and pick up/rolling speed to be increased. I've noticed the syncros seem lifeless when in the bunch, so will probably just train on them.

    I have been looking at the Pacenti SL23 v2 rim, laced on dura ace with sapim cx ray spokes as one option. Not entirely sure on the best spoke count as I am in between 18/24 or 24/28. Id say im looking at about £600 ish for this build? I would run these with tubes and either schwalbe ones or conti gp 4000 2 both 25mm.

    I have a hankering carbon clinchers around the 38mm to 45mm mark. To be honest I want to know if they would let me cheat a little at high speeds in the bunch compared to the Pacenti rim. However, given my budget I just wondered a cheaper set of handbuilt carbon clinchers or something like the cero rc45 would compare to the Pacenti build above.

    My preference would not be to touch a Chinese carbon clincher.

    thanks

    Tubulars, Planet X ct 45... speed at the right price. If you are scared of damaging carbon rims, then go for a handbuilt inexpensive set of alloy rims.. maybe Archetype 20/28
    left the forum March 2023
  • tom3
    tom3 Posts: 287
    thanks Ugo, I would prefer not to ride tubs.

    Have you any experience of the new pacenti rim?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19679931#p19679931]tom3[/url] wrote:
    thanks Ugo, I would prefer not to ride tubs.

    Have you any experience of the new pacenti rim?

    Yes, they are nice, but they are very expensive
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The new V2 Pacenti rim is exceelent but 18H rims are currently not available. I have put in a fairly big order but I have to wait. For DAhubs you will only find 24F/28R available with the new rims. 18F/24R with the older rims is possible and I have on a 24 rear on the older rim for a while with no issues. I am bit over 80kg.

    the pacenti rim is stiffer than the archetype as for racing use I would choose over the archetype. the other rim to consider is the Kinlin XR31T in 20F/24R. The 24H rim is now available in an offset drilling pattern which is of course better. DA hubs will not be possible but White Industries T11's would be and the money saved on the rims will help pay for the extra needed for the hubs.

    The XR31t rim is the most aero and the stiffest alloy rim about unless you try to get flo30 rims.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Oh and by discounting tubs you are discounting the best tyres. I ride all three types of tyre tubeless, clincher and tubular. Tubulars give me the least problems and the best ride you can guess which I prefer.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • tom3
    tom3 Posts: 287
    Yeah. Point taken by both on tubs but just thinking of practicality and my lack of maintenance skills.

    Food for thought on the kinlin rims and white industries hubs. Are there hubs good in comparison to dura ace and what would a build weight be off the top of your head. Rough estimate is cool.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    A kinlin/WI build would weigh in at 1545g for a 20F/24R with sapim CX-ray or Laser spokes
    A build with the Pacenti L23 V2 rims would be a bit lighter (1465g) because the rims are alot lighter but that does not mean the wheels are "quicker" or "better" they will still be round and straight if the wheel builder does there job properly. Both rims are quite wide but the Pacenti is 1.7mm wider internally which will affect tyre profile. The kinlin build will be marginally more aero. Now the Kinlin XR31t is available and now in an offset drilling for the rear the case for the pacenti SL23 is not so clear cut. The archetype is a fine rim but Kinlin is the same weight, stiffer and a bit more aero so for racing purposes given it is a similar price go with the Kinlin. For a good solid all rounder rim the archetype is still a good option.

    Tubs are not difficult to fit or replace. There is a damm good thread on weight weenies and on LFGSS. I have added my thoughts and experiences there as well. I ride a fair bit on conti competition tubs and not just in the summer. I use them alot in winter too as I get less punctures with these than I do with tubeless tyres oddly enough. Destroyed two schwable one tubeless tyres this winter killed of a couple of tubs as well but overall I prefer riding tubs. I have stopped riding normal clinchers in anything but good conditions. Sungod on here also rides tubulars all year round. It is very practical indeed.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • thepeginator
    thepeginator Posts: 147
    Hi Chaps (first post)

    Just thought I'd seek some advice about an upcoming wheel-build I'm planning for me 'year-round' bike. Based around a Planet X London Road Disc Frame set.

    I'm waiting an (ideally) light-ish, fast-ish, strong and reliable wheel set for year round training, club runs, possible commuting and a bit of light touring. I'm only around 65-68kg so I don't need anything too hefty as I would like them to still feel spritely. Seems like the best option in the road-disc market at the moment is hand builds. At the moment I'm leaning towards the following:

    Rims:
    - Archetypes - they get a good write up, look the dogs and they're only £50 each... but not disc specific
    - Pacenti SL25 - similar credentials to archetype, slightly more expensive, marginally lighter?
    - Stans Grail - somewhere between the above two in terms of price and weight but relatively new and untested...

    Hubs:
    - Novatec D711/D712 - they seem fairly tried and tested for road disc, bearings easily replaceable, light, only £90
    Most other options seem to be either a lot more expensive (hope etc.) or MTB hubs which seem to be 10sp and quite heavy, anything I've overlooked?

    Spokes:
    - CX-Rays - expensive, but they're certified for disc wheels and I'm ok with the cost considering their strength/weight. I could probably get away with cheaper double butted spokes but I have cx-rays on my other wheels and I've been very impressed with them. I want these wheels to last the test of time and hold tension, they seem like a safe bet.
    - I'm leaning towards 28/28? As a compromise between weight/strength/cost, although wheels such as Hunt manage with 24/24 and they've been ridden in the Transcontinental. This is probably the area that I'm most unsure about.

    For disc I'm assuming 2x front/rear lacing is pretty much the de facto? It seems to be fairly tried and tested.

    Any advice on components / build etc. would be much appreciated, thanks.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    28F/28R Pacenti SL25 rims sapim race spokes and Novatec D711/D712 hubs. This is a good all rounder that is under 1700g. You have pretty much identified this very build by naming all the components. The stans grail rim like all stans rims is best run tubeless. Cant say I have ever been wowed by a stans rims they are not that stiff.

    the archetype is narrower and heavier and less stiff than the Pacenti. It is also a rim brake rim. The Pacenti is a proper disc brake only rim.

    24F/24R disc brake wheels work fine but for the sake of a few extra grams (60g worth of extra sapim race spokes and brass nipples) why bother with the lower spoke count. If you are going to use CX-rays and a 24 spoke count rim then do what I have done on my bike.
    24F/24R Novatec hubs, velocity aileron rims and CX-rays spokes. Not sensible but the wheels are fine. Also the extra depth of the velocity rim makes up for the lack spokes in terms of radial, torsional and lateral stiffness.

    2x lacing for 24H wheels 3x is a must for 28H/32H. A wheel being ridden on the transcontinental is one thing it lasting 20,000 miles is another. Disc brake rim dont wear out so the wheel needs to be able to handle a silly number of miles whether the 24F/24R spoke disc brake wheels can is something only time will tell.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • thepeginator
    thepeginator Posts: 147
    Sounds like good advice.

    28/28, Pacenti SL25, Novatec 711/712 sounds like a winner. As you say, for the sake of 60g I'll take the hit, I want them to last.

    Realistically will I notice any difference between sapim race/laser/cx-rays beyond the slight reduction in weight and the fairly hefty increase in cost? Are the wheels likely to last longer or stay true for longer with the stronger spokes?
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    You would save a bit of weight with laser/brass nipples (80g) a bit over 100g with alloy nipples. Same goes for CX-rays. No you wont notice, the aero gains of Cx-rays are small and disc brakes themselves are not the aero choice. I am not saying there is not a benefit but it is marginal.

    If using the thinner spoke the velocity aileron rim makes sense it is deeper and more aero and stiffer and only 10g heavier than the Pacenti. Wheels will stay true if they are built properly and are suited to the rider regardless of how much you spend on the spokes.

    Also from a theoretical standpoint, disc brake wheels transmit all the brake load through the spokes so the torsional stiffness should be as high as possible. From that viewpoint a thicker spoke will enhance spoke life if you brake alot. so would upping the spoke count so with disc brake wheels always spec spokes and spoke count based on the number of miles you want out of them. If it a lowly 10,000 then you can spec the wheel as you want it should get close or do that or more . If you want a silly number of miles from it for years to come then have it overbuilt 32F/32R you might get bored of them though before they die.

    My 24 spoke set are about to be pressed into 12hrs of commuting duties a week after I move shortly. I will soon find out if a 24 spoke build is actually reliable in the long term or not.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • thepeginator
    thepeginator Posts: 147
    All sounds like good advice.

    I definitely want them to last so 28/28 seems sensible, 32/32 is probably overkill for my needs/weight.

    Sounds like my main decisions are the SL25 vs. Aileron - any pearls of wisdom here? and if I want to splash out on the expensive spokes - cost/benefit would probably suggest not.

    Thank you for all your help.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19682294#p19682294]thepeginator[/url] wrote:
    All sounds like good advice.

    I definitely want them to last so 28/28 seems sensible, 32/32 is probably overkill for my needs/weight.

    Sounds like my main decisions are the SL25 vs. Aileron - any pearls of wisdom here? and if I want to splash out on the expensive spokes - cost/benefit would probably suggest not.

    Thank you for all your help.

    Either... it comes down to finish... the SL 25 are shot peened and the Aileron are brushed... I like the Aileron more, as they are not matt black but rather a very dark metallic colour. Pacenti rims are made by SUN in the far east, while Velocity rims are made in the USA. I have never seen a cracked Velocity rim... that doesn't mean they don't exist, just I have never seen one.

    Best lightweight spokes for disc wheels are Sapim D-Light... tried and tested over the past 10 months with no reported failures... around 1 pound each, which is not cheap, but neither overly expensive
    left the forum March 2023
  • thepeginator
    thepeginator Posts: 147
    Thanks for your input. I do like the look of the Aileron, it has all the qualities that I want in a wheel and looks smart. I'll see how deep my pockets are and if I can stretch to cx-rays, my justification being if I'm going to use them for 10-20,000 miles, an extra £70 on spokes isn't mental.

    Thank you both for your words of wisdom.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    While velocity rims dont crack there are issues. One customer wanted to remove the decals when that was done we found a lack of anodising. Velocity shrugged there shoulders I had to rebuild and am left out of pocket.

    I have had to reject a couple of velocity rims as not being round or straight I am taking a couple of mm as well in radial hop with a step out and the join. One just wobbled everywhere. Mostly they are fine but lie all velocity rims there is the odd quality issue. The Pacenti overall seems better. They are not perfect but I have yet to find one that is no acceptably round and straight <0.5mm. If you are building yourself this is a consideration is not like ugo says it down to the finish as the wheel builder worries about the rest.

    If you want perfect shell out for HED Belgium+ NMSW rims uhmmm pretty.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19682852#p19682852]thecycleclinic[/url] wrote:
    While velocity rims dont crack there are issues. One customer wanted to remove the decals when that was done we found a lack of anodising. Velocity shrugged there shoulders I had to rebuild and am left out of pocket.

    I have had to reject a couple of velocity rims as not being round or straight I am taking a couple of mm as well in radial hop with a step out and the join. One just wobbled everywhere. Mostly they are fine but lie all velocity rims there is the odd quality issue. The Pacenti overall seems better. They are not perfect but I have yet to find one that is no acceptably round and straight <0.5mm. If you are building yourself this is a consideration is not like ugo says it down to the finish as the wheel builder worries about the rest.

    If you want perfect shell out for HED Belgium+ NMSW rims uhmmm pretty.

    Are you talking about Velocity in general or Aileron specifically? I have not found issues with the Ailerons
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The thing is ugo I have got to end of a couple of builds and had re rim as the rim wa that bad and I was not being picky the rim was awful. Only happened a couple of time but a few more have only been acceptable and if they had been any more out I would have had to re rim. I am not doing a strada on it yet but if I get any more then I will have to. I abandoned using the velocity A23 after getting fed up with shaking out drilling swarf and after having a few rims with an absurbly low tension limit past 1100N it went all wobbly. Maybe I have got unluckly. the Major tom is the only rim in there range which seem to be well made.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • 2oldnslow
    2oldnslow Posts: 313
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19683617#p19683617]thecycleclinic[/url] wrote:
    The thing is ugo I have got to end of a couple of builds and had re rim as the rim wa that bad and I was not being picky the rim was awful. Only happened a couple of time but a few more have only been acceptable and if they had been any more out I would have had to re rim. I am not doing a strada on it yet but if I get any more then I will have to. I abandoned using the velocity A23 after getting fed up with shaking out drilling swarf and after having a few rims with an absurbly low tension limit past 1100N it went all wobbly. Maybe I have got unluckly. the Major tom is the only rim in there range which seem to be well made.

    Oh dear that's not great to hear. I am currently looking to get a set of light road discs built up and the Aileron appealed to me. I've currently got Pacenti SL23 (old style) on CX75 and the OEM wheels on my carbon GT Grade (Stans Grail on Formula hubs? ) and wanted a set for specifically road use with (probably) a 25c Schwalbe One as the 28 I'm running on the grade at the moment I like a lot.

    What would you recommend for an old 75kg codger for solely road use? Ability to swap front hub between standard QR and 15mm thru would be a big advantage and budget is say up to £500 ish.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I should add I have a set of Velocity aileron rims on my disc brake bike and they are fine. It is very possible I have been unluckly. Besides for end user my troubles are of no consequence because if I check what I am doing the rim issue gets spotted and re rimming happens before it sent out.

    Pacenti SL25 is a good rim. The stans grail is a good option too. Maybe I should use try the stans rim I thought it was a bit narrower than it actually is! DT Swiss 350 hubs are convertable between axle standards. So are Hope, Novatec D771...... So 28F/28R on the Pacenti, Stans or velocity disc brake rim sapim race spokes and DT Swiss hubs would be my choice if you you have £500 to spend as DT hubs are excellent.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • 2oldnslow
    2oldnslow Posts: 313
    "Pacenti SL25 is a good rim. The stans grail is a good option too. Maybe I should use try the stans rim I thought it was a bit narrower than it actually is! DT Swiss 350 hubs are convertable between axle standards. So are Hope, Novatec D771...... So 28F/28R on the Pacenti, Stans or velocity disc brake rim sapim race spokes and DT Swiss hubs would be my choice if you you have £500 to spend as DT hubs are excellent."

    Thanks for that Malcolm think the sensible thing to do would be to give you a call to discuss next week as I've a number of questions and haven't even ruled out going back to tubs.
  • Elfed
    Elfed Posts: 459
    I really don't get this hand built thread, seems to me to be just a thread to slag off factory built wheels on this forum, cue Ugo...
  • 2oldnslow
    2oldnslow Posts: 313
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19685555#p19685555]Elfed[/url] wrote:
    I really don't get this hand built thread, seems to me to be just a thread to slag off factory built wheels on this forum, cue Ugo...

    Not entirely sure if this is meant to be taken seriously or is just a wind up/trolling but l'll "bite".


    I've got at the moment 7 sets of wheels. 4 handbuilts, 2 factory and a pair that came with my recently acquired GT Grade. Perfectly happy in the main with them all. At the moment l'm looking to supplement the wheels that came on the Grade with a set for purely road use and will then stick a set of WTB Cross Wolfs on the existing wheels for "mixed use ". Looking at what's available seems to me handbuilts hit the ideal balence of cost/performance and more importantly (drawing on the experience of contributors like Ugo and
    Malcolm) to get a set of wheels ideally matched to my needs that are easily rebuildable at sensible cost.
  • Elfed
    Elfed Posts: 459
    I know the rebuilding thing is a great selling point, as well as the easy spoke replacement and a good handbuilt will cost £300 up or you could get an Ultegra 6800 wheelset for £220.
    So if you factor the price of new rims on a handbuilt versus just buying a new Ultegra wheelset when both sets are worn, surely there's no difference?

    I'm basing this purely on cost as I've no experience of riding handbuilt wheels, so please forgive my ignorance.

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