Reasonably priced Italian steel stallions

gweeds

Not if they're competing on price - it's simply not possible.

A friend of mine started a clothing company and was desperate to manufacture in the UK. Everyone in the trade told him the for the scale he wanted it was simply impossible because he's also using expensive raw materials, that he'd then try Portugal and would find them hard to commit to lead times. So it turned out. They design in the UK, but use China for manufacture. One comment from those he spoke to is that the days of Chinese manufacturing being cheap because it's rubbish are long gone. I'm not sure how you compete against the labour/land costs over there once you start to look at scale. I should add that the company is now very successful just three years in, so the Chinese element hasn't proved an issue to sales.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Not if they're competing on price - it's simply not possible.

What people fail to understand is that there isn't just "competition on quality" and competition on price"... there is also "competition on quality at the right price". For example what this thread is all about is whether a UK frame builder can make a good quality bespoke frame for less than a grand.
This won't compete on price with Chinese produce, but it will appeal to similar pockets.

In other words, in a supermarket you will find the value range, the luxury range, but also every shade in between.
There is a market for those that eat neither 2 pounds/Kg Tesco chickens nor 39 pounds/Kg fillet, but maybe 8 pounds/Kg ox cheek...

gweeds

Correct (I won't point you to my post on monolithic markets again....but I'm sure you've read it by now) - but remember, turnover is vanity and profit is sanity for any business - without that growth and those local jobs is impossible. And the vast majority of people buying a given product or service start at price and work backwards.

The right price and right quality for the customer, in his case, was simply not possible using the UK for the entire supply chain. All roads lead to China and until the cost base in this country changes that will continue to be the case.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Correct (I won't point you to my post on monolithic markets again....but I'm sure you've read it by now) - but remember, turnover is vanity and profit is sanity for any business - without that growth and those local jobs is impossible. And the vast majority of people buying a given product or service start at price and work backwards.

OK, but even as a one man band, I don't see how making 2-3 frames a week instead of one and charging 900 quid instead of 2 grand is going to impact profits. There is a place in the market for both... I can't think the only people interested in bespoke steel have to wait 12 months and pay 2 grand to be happy... I do believe there are more people put off by that than people who buy into that... I for one.

gweeds

But we know those people exist now - 3 or 4 have already been pointed out. Maybe pay a visit to Bespoked Bristol in April and you'll find even more. You've also had a frame builder here say he thinks 5 days is about right per custom frame. I know I didn't have to wait 12 months.....

Moonbiker

Not if they're competing on price - it's simply not possible.

A friend of mine started a clothing company and was desperate to manufacture in the UK. Everyone in the trade told him the for the scale he wanted it was simply impossible because he's also using expensive raw materials, that he'd then try Portugal and would find them hard to commit to lead times. So it turned out. They design in the UK, but use China for manufacture.

Wonder how lusso manages to make money cheap but quality cycle clothing handmade in manchester.



http://www.lusso.bike/#

gweeds

Cheaper materials would be my guess - hence my qualifier of 'he's also using expensive raw materials....'

I'm not entirely sure £85 shorts qualify as cheap.

cal_stewart

Think the problem could just be that it's a bit of a one man in a shed industry. For what ugo wants I think up need a 4-5 man outfit.

Bike fitter/designer
2x Welders
1x Appentice/labourer

Don't go fully bespoke. 3-4 different frames with custom geo and a option list and out source paint.

Think it's more the upfront cost of kit and business running costs at the start that stops this. Think with this model a sub 1000 custom frame is possible. The real skills in the design etc. there's plenty of good welders out in industry not on great money.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

I'm not entirely sure £85 shorts qualify as cheap.

It's mid-range... it's the kind of stuff I look at when I feel I'm on the ball... even the non budget line of DHB stuff is around that money these days

gweeds

Shorts have got damn expensive eh

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Shorts have got damn expensive eh

Yes, but on the other hand if you get a decent pair, you might get 4 seasons out of them

gweeds

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Shorts have got damn expensive eh

Yes, but on the other hand if you get a decent pair, you might get 4 seasons out of them

Yes - I long ago gave up buying any cheap ones.

Moonbiker

Merlin has there bibs in stock for for £44, jerseys are £19 at ribble etc.

Or £39 on ebay for bibs


Maybe they just are happy not to be making the 500% profit margin on each item* that rapha does from stuff they make in china?

*500% is a a random guess but wouldn't suprise me.

As for they must use poor quality material some of ther stuff has comes top in cycling weekly fairly often.

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q= ... ng++weekly

gweeds

I said cheaper. Not poor quality. Different things

500% profit margin is a long, long way off. You might well be surprised. I know I was.

ugo.santalucia

Alright, off topic though...

ovi

what would the cost of all parts be for a reynolds 853 frame ?

gweeds

Tubing? I'd guess around £200-250

ugo.santalucia

ovi wrote:

what would the cost of all parts be for a reynolds 853 frame ?

You have to ask Woolwich... even there I suspect who buys volumes gets the better deal... I am sure what Genesis pays is not the same as what Tom Donhou pays

ovi

Gweeds wrote:

Tubing? I'd guess around £200-250

maybe 2 days to make it and get it ready to send it to the painters ?

woolwich

Gweeds wrote:

Tubing? I'd guess around £200-250

This is in the right ball park more or less for 853, depending on tube size and shape. The Stainless tubesets are around twice, the non heat treated tubesets around half.
Don't forget your gonna need a bottom bracket shell, dropouts and brazeons. With some notable exceptions these tend to be low volume specialist parts, sometimes commissioned by independent framebuilders and then sold to stockists. Or if your stockist doesn't have what you want you have to deal direct and pay shipping and customs.

Then you will need is a list of minor consumables as long as your arm, from abrasives to panel wipes, hacksaws to hydraulic and cutting oils, tungsten electrodes to drill bits. You would be stunned if it was listed.
A complete flying guess including stuff like argon/oxy/acet, wear and tear on tooling etc could be as much as £50 to £100 per bike for a small volume producer.

No idea what the likes of Genesis can haggle Reynolds down to but they will offer the little guy discounts for over 10 and 50 items, they are decent to deal with.

jswba

ovi wrote:

It will take some doing to find a better and more experienced frame builder than Kevin winter, I read somewhere that columbus give him prototype tubes to work with and then they would get professional racers on the prototype bikes.
he made this Hardisty Nike frame:

Sorry to jump in on this belatedly, but Kevin Winter has just built me an 853 frame. It's absolutely beautiful. He's a smashing bloke too. I understand that he'll be building the Joe Waugh-branded frames that M Steel Cycles are bringing back.

ugo.santalucia

jswba wrote:

ovi wrote:

It will take some doing to find a better and more experienced frame builder than Kevin winter, I read somewhere that columbus give him prototype tubes to work with and then they would get professional racers on the prototype bikes.
he made this Hardisty Nike frame:

Sorry to jump in on this belatedly, but Kevin Winter has just built me an 853 frame. It's absolutely beautiful. He's a smashing bloke too. I understand that he'll be building the Joe Waugh-branded frames that M Steel Cycles are bringing back.

If you don't say how much it never happened... photos would be nice too

jswba

Hope this works. It cost just over a grand, including Columbus carbon forks, paintjob and headset fitting. The photo doesn't do justice to the paint. The white looks yellower than in real life and the little touches on the lugs look even better too.

gweeds

That's an absolute steal for a custom 853 frame with a lovely paint-job and lug work. Good work.

ugo.santalucia

I am done with lugged frames, but it's really nice

jswba

Cheers gents. He also does TIG welding and fillet brazing if that's your sort of thing. Like I said, lovely bloke too.

Moonbiker

Another kevin winter frame:



http://www.theaftermarket.cc/product/azione-inverno/

bit expensive @ £2250

gweeds

http://road.cc/content/news/144820-just ... -road-bike

One for Ugo

on-yer-bike

Gweeds wrote:

http://road.cc/content/news/144820-just-donhou-dss1-performance-disc-road-bike

One for Ugo

Nice. shame about the bridge on the seat stays. A friend has bought one but Ive not seen it yet. Perfect use of Archytypes where the brake track stays black.

gweeds

It did strike me as extremely pricey for an off-the-shelf 853 frame. And £4500 for a mechanical Ultegra build. Ouch.