Reasonably priced Italian steel stallions

apreading

I think the waiting list for wheels is also due to lots of the hobbyist builders doing it in their spare time.

MisterMuncher

ugo.santalucia wrote:

djhermer wrote:

So this thread has gone from 'What the Italians rave about" to "What one particular Italian raves about".

Not true... the Italian rave about Vetta for cheap bespoke steel frames, among others

Is personal import an option?

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

Is personal import an option?

I don't know if he speaks English, I don't know if he sends abroad... I have no idea... I am just reporting what I read on an Italian Forum and got me thinking... :roll:

ugo.santalucia

If you want to see the Italians buzzing like bothered bees, just post a photo of a broken Campagnolo Neutron hub on their forum...

Moonbiker

Vetta catalogue:

http://vetta.it/wp-content/uploads/PDF/prodotti.pdf

Alot of raised stems in thoose pics

Price for track alu bike frame is 250 euro & VAT

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... rev=search

Does cx frames also:

http://vetta.it/wp-content/uploads/PDF/ ... -varie.pdf

Interesting forum thread eith pic & alot of information.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... rev=search

on-yer-bike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Could be a good conversation to have with him then.

Is there a worthwhile business in offering bespoke, low-cost tubing frames, in 3 or 4 plain colours, for £700 all in

I look like Michelangelo's David, it's pretty easy to make a frame for me.

Small dick and big hands?
Do you really think there is no real difference between a £2000.00 Pegoretti or Saffron etc and an £800 531?

on-yer-bike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If you want to see the Italians buzzing like bothered bees, just post a photo of a broken Campagnolo Neutron hub on their forum...

How did that happen? Buzzzzzzz

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

djhermer wrote:

So this thread has gone from 'What the Italians rave about" to "What one particular Italian raves about".

Not true... the Italian rave about Vetta for cheap bespoke steel frames, among others

It might be built well but the frame graphics are awful

ugo.santalucia

LegendLust wrote:

It might be built well but the frame graphics are awful

Probably that's what the guy wanted... would you say this is nice?



Yet people seem to queue for years and pay thousands for this rubbish paintjob

Moonbiker

Looks like a toddler with a new sticker book decorated that frame. :shock:

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

It might be built well but the frame graphics are awful

Probably that's what the guy wanted... would you say this is nice?



Yet people seem to queue for years and pay thousands for this rubbish paintjob

I agree. Pegoretti paintjobs are an acquired taste.

If you like the taste of s**t

ugo.santalucia

... therefore I wouldn't say you pay less but you get a crap paintjob... the paint itself looks fine to me... besides, I would go for plain red or plain blue, so no need for fancy jobs... I am happy with powder coating

crikey

Has the title of this thread changed?

If so, could you spell it properly?

thanks...

gweeds

I just thought Ugo was describing himself.....

ugo.santalucia

Done... yes, I thoguht that's the direction it is going, we might as well change the title... seems a new and fresh topic to discuss...

Yes, I used to define myself that way...

crikey

Ta, it was making my teeth itch!

ugo.santalucia

Did you know Gios is still working? I went there a couple of years back, basically Alfredo has left and only Aldo is in charge with his son. The showroom/workshop is in Volpiano, close to Turin airport and worth a visit if you love steel.

Anyway, rambling aside, he still builds frames and can do a bespoke one for 1,000 Euro or so... I mean you pay 2 grand for a frame made by a guy called Ricky Feather or less than half for a frame made by the guy who built frames for Roger De Vlaeminck... :roll:

gweeds

Or 3 grand on a frame by some bloke called Pegoretti who built frames for Indurain, Roche, Tafi, Pantani

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Or 3 grand on a frame by some bloke called Pegoretti who built frames for Indurain, Roche, Tafi, Pantani

For some reason my cycling heroes these days are all Flemmish... Merckx, De Vlaeminck and Boonen... :roll:

steel191964

You always pay extra for a vogue name on the side of the product even though the quality etc can't really justify that, i have a friend who is a tailor he uses the same material for his basic suit and charges £500 less than Hugo Boss, crazy.

With regard to wheels the fancy logos on the side costing over 1k are they so much better than say a £700 set of carbon wheels made from Malcolm at the Cycle clinic.

I suppose in the end you pays your money but quality doesn't always have to come at such a premium.

Brassknocker

...this is a great thread (in both incarnations), but returning to the original thread title if I may, what do Italians think of De Rosa ...etc... and shimano/sram... what proportion of Italians ride Campagnolo? Is there a real loyal patriotism there?

Do most Italian club riders ride Chorus? or is it the same division (Sram, shimano, Campag) split that you see here currently??

...

I have great memories of riding up Gavia, Stelvio, Mortirolo, and also in the Dolomites ...etc, etc, with all the sun-bronzed Italians wearing immaculate white lycra and Sidi shoes, with Catholic crosses on chains dangling from their open jerseys, and whippet, leathery old men in their 60s/70s riding up these famous cols on mountain bikes with slick tyres to drink a coffee in the summit cafes...

discuss...

ugo.santalucia

Brassknocker wrote:

...this is a great thread (in both incarnations), but returning to the original thread title if I may, what do Italians think of De Rosa ...etc... and shimano/sram... what proportion of Italians ride Campagnolo? Is there a real loyal patriotism there?

Do most Italian club riders ride Chorus? or is it the same division (Sram, shimano, Campag) split that you see here currently??

...

I have great memories of riding up Gavia, Stelvio, Mortirolo, and also in the Dolomites ...etc, etc, with all the sun-bronzed Italians wearing immaculate white lycra and Sidi shoes, with Catholic crosses on chains dangling from their open jerseys, and whippet, leathery old men in their 60s/70s riding up these famous cols on mountain bikes with slick tyres to drink a coffee in the summit cafes...

discuss...

I find it's all pretty much the same as here with the following difference

1) You have to shave you legs

2) 80 Kg is obese

3) The UCI 6.8 Kg limit is to be considered the upper limit

4) Campagnolo is always better, but Shimano is acceptable... SRAM is best avoided

5) Deep rims have to say BORA on them

6) Tubulars are for everybody

7) Nobody seem overly fussed about Canyon

8) Corrado Spada is the God of hand built wheels

9) Condor is a bird of the Andes and Rapha is Nadal

10) 10 degrees is cold

woolwich

I have been building frames on a part time basis for a while.
These are my own observations.
Firstly set up initially seems quite cheap, its seems to be only basic tooling. Then costs start to rise significantly. Cutters, reamers, facers etc are big money and don't last forever. Decent spray guns/ filtration and ventilation does not come cheap. This does not include the big stuff, welders, fluxers, jigs etc.
Public liability is a must for the commercial builder and again isn't cheap.

It is true that a bike can be built to an acceptable standard in a day but this would be virtually impossible for most customers. IME everyone requires around a half day to go through geometry, size, tube choice, brazeons, paint. Even if the framebuilder is on the ball, there is a world of ditherers out there that can quickly suck a day out of your schedule questioning every detail such as your opinion on everything from groupset to wheels.

The fun thing about bespoke buiding is bending and shaping odd shaped stuff or using new and unusual kit. This often requires bespoke tooling for benders or jig mounts, which all needs to be made.
Unlike wheelbuilding, it is best to have some premises, again a huge cost. Whilst it is possible to both fabricate and paint in the same shed. It is really tricky to keep the environment spotlessly clean for excellent paint results, a dedicated space is most helpful.

Just my take on the subject and I don't want to be drawn into what others charge, but for a one man band to see the job through from initial concept to a finished painted frame, I think a weeks work per frame is on average perfectly reasonable, all factors of running a small business considered. A day or so less for a simple fixed, a little longer for very complicated stuff.

I've started this blog on framebuilding if you're interested. http://locksidebikes.co.uk/

ugo.santalucia

woolwich wrote:

I have been building frames on a part time basis for a while.
These are my own observations.
Firstly set up initially seems quite cheap, its seems to be only basic tooling. Then costs start to rise significantly. Cutters, reamers, facers etc are big money and don't last forever. Decent spray guns/ filtration and ventilation does not come cheap. This does not include the big stuff, welders, fluxers, jigs etc.
Public liability is a must for the commercial builder and again isn't cheap.

It is true that a bike can be built to an acceptable standard in a day but this would be virtually impossible for most customers. IME everyone requires around a half day to go through geometry, size, tube choice, brazeons, paint. Even if the framebuilder is on the ball, there is a world of ditherers out there that can quickly suck a day out of your schedule questioning every detail such as your opinion on everything from groupset to wheels.

The fun thing about bespoke buiding is bending and shaping odd shaped stuff or using new and unusual kit. This often requires bespoke tooling for benders or jig mounts, which all needs to be made.
Unlike wheelbuilding, it is best to have some premises, again a huge cost. Whilst it is possible to both fabricate and paint in the same shed. It is really tricky to keep the environment spotlessly clean for excellent paint results, a dedicated space is most helpful.

Just my take on the subject and I don't want to be drawn into what others charge, but for a one man band to see the job through from initial concept to a finished painted frame, I think a weeks work per frame is on average perfectly reasonable, all factors of running a small business considered. A day or so less for a simple fixed, a little longer for very complicated stuff.

I've started this blog on framebuilding if you're interested. http://locksidebikes.co.uk/

I was craving for your Input...

Don't you think there is a market for less demanding customers who are happy with a decent bespoke frame without too much fuss? Those who are happy to buy an off the peg Genesis or Condor, for instance... people like me... :roll:
Besides, I would expect a builder to have other streams of revenue, like selling and fitting components as well as frames...

cycleclinic

contact Taylormade then Ugo. Angus is the man you are looking for.

woolwich

Yes I am inclined to agree with you Ugo. I am also concerned about the boutiquification of cycling.

These guys are out there though. They just don't jump to the top of a google search and are best found word of mouth. Malcolms mentioned one, Steve Goff is another.

I agree about diversifying. Many builders also do frame repairs. Dave Yates is a prolific fixer of all things metal. I even know of a guy with an old Dawes who took his bike for a cracked braze repair to Enigma. To there credit they did a super job for not a lot.

ugo.santalucia

I am not specifically looking for anything now... these days I barely get to the end of the month... but it would be interesting to explore this option next time I'll be on the market for a frame. Having given up on carbon and aluminium almost a decade ago, I'm all for something bespoke and reasonably priced

woolwich

I once learnt an expression from someone.

It goes something along the lines of "pm me if your interested"

ugo.santalucia

woolwich wrote:

I once learnt an expression from someone.

It goes something along the lines of "pm me if your interested"

I am glad you have decided to "come out"... I mean to build for others and you'll be top of my list if I ever find a stack of coins in a field...

However, by then you'll probably have an 18 months waiting list and will charge 2 grand... :?

For the interest of the wider audience... do you think it's possible to build a CX disc frame that weighs a bit less than the current stuff on the market... my Fugio is 1.9 Kg, which seems to be average for this type of bike... is 1.4-1.5 Kg in a 54 size for someone around 70Kg asking too much to the material and geometry?

gweeds

Why have you given up on carbon and aluminium, and why a decade ago - assume you've tried carbon in the intervening period?