Reasonably priced Italian steel stallions

robbo2011

ovi wrote:

how about this Ugo not sure of the cost though http://www.azione.cc/collection/inverno/

Very nice. I would buy that.

ovi

It will take some doing to find a better and more experienced frame builder than Kevin winter, I read somewhere that columbus give him prototype tubes to work with and then they would get professional racers on the prototype bikes.
he made this Hardisty Nike frame:

gweeds

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

Have a read of the Rouleur edition with their interview with Irio Tommasini. His thoughts on the 'new' guys who take weeks to build a frame is good reading!

IIRC correctly he calls them hobbyists because they take longer to build a frame.

To which my responses are a) more than one way to skin a cat and b) meh.

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

Have a read of the Rouleur edition with their interview with Irio Tommasini. His thoughts on the 'new' guys who take weeks to build a frame is good reading!

I need to get hold of that...!

http://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/tommasini

LegendLust

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

Have a read of the Rouleur edition with their interview with Irio Tommasini. His thoughts on the 'new' guys who take weeks to build a frame is good reading!

I need to get hold of that...!

http://rouleur.cc/journal/bicycles/tommasini

If that edition is sold out I'm sure I took photos of the article to send to a friend. Let me know and I could dig them out

ovi

LegendLust wrote:

ovi wrote:

how about this Ugo not sure of the cost though http://www.azione.cc/collection/inverno/

That is a UK North East brand trying to be Italian but getting their steel frame made in the North East. As opposed to Condor who are a British brand who get their frames made in Italy :?

We still have the best engineers in the world so why wouldnt you get a frame made in the uk especially the north east which has probably got some of the best in the UK

LegendLust

ovi wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

ovi wrote:

how about this Ugo not sure of the cost though http://www.azione.cc/collection/inverno/

That is a UK North East brand trying to be Italian but getting their steel frame made in the North East. As opposed to Condor who are a British brand who get their frames made in Italy :?

We still have the best engineers in the world so why wouldnt you get a frame made in the uk especially the north east which has probably got some of the best in the UK

True. So why not play to that with the brand instead of trying to be 'fake' Italian?

ovi

they should. I think its only now where people are realizing British is good after all the bad years with british leyland and that.

LegendLust

ovi wrote:

they should. I think its only now where people are realizing British is good after all the bad years with british leyland and that.

It's always been good. We started the industrial revolution for christ's sake. Just think of some of the engineers who have been born here. And now, we're world class at specialist engineering and manufacturing. Just look at F1. A friend of my dad's completely changed his engineering firm. They used to mass manufacture but then couldn't compete with the Far East so now they specialise and make hi-tech stuff. They actually manufacture the parts that make up the 'robots' that are installed in mass manufacture factories!

woolwich

LegendLust wrote:

Have a read of the Rouleur edition with their interview with Irio Tommasini. His thoughts on the 'new' guys who take weeks to build a frame is good reading!

I usually shy away from any negative observations about other framebuilders. However I have read a couple of articles with Irio Tommasini and his opinions on new framebuilders. I feel a right of reply is fair.

My opinion is that he is an 80 year old man somewhat stuck in the past, with a "not as good as my day" attitude. He mocks those with small workshops and low volume experience. He also mocks the timescales involved in framebuilding, and the use of modern media for self promotion. He comes from a period when volumes were measured in 10's of thousands not hundreds and by whole teams of men.
He makes the proud claim he could build 15 frames a week, without a shred of irony that he has the aid of front of house staff, a full factory machine shop set up, admin/website and a paint shop.
He is either a snob in his attitudes, very savvy at playing the Heritage marketing card or both.

As a counterpoint, I chatted with Marco Bertolletti (through an interpreter), he of Legend fame, about the most boring of frame topics, the need for chainstay braces of all things. I was upfront about being a novice framebuilder and unlikely to be a customer but was interested as I had built a couple of frames which were harsh and I felt overbraced. He took the time to explain which tubesets he felt it was unnecessary and how long a stay could be in his opinion without it needing anything.
A complete, errrr...Legend. Somebody who felt experience was something to be shared and not stored away. To be fair most framebuilders tend to fall into this category.
If everyone held Irio tommasini's attitude, steel bikes would soon be something seen only in museums and heritage runs. Instead thanks to the Bertollettis( and most others) of this world we have a thriving scene.

gweeds

Bingo - possibly, just possibly, the new breed might push things forward.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Bingo - possibly, just possibly, the new breed might push things forward.

Of that I am not so sure... it seems to me the average customer wants pretty rather than performance... for performance generally carbon is the choice. Seeing the awards Ricky Feather got, looks like we are going backwards...

That aside, the long wait and steep price of a custom frame is not going to do much to increase the customer base. The renaissance is due to a small number of wealthy collectors who got interested in something bespoke. Personally, I think having more than 2 recreational bikes is part of an obsessive behaviour...
You can't have enough bedrooms or floor space, you can't have enough BHP, you can't have enough bikes... it's just part of an extreme consumerism which is a symptom of decadent society...

Is feeding the beast and milking it going to satisfy me as an independent artisan? I am not sure... someone must have a bit of vision, or at least integrity FFS!

When the guy who travels around the world on a bike does so on a Genesis, should the artisan not see it as a missed opportunity? Am I just being a moaner?

mercia_man

I think Woolwich makes some very good points. I'm delighted to see new framebuilders coming forward and giving the die-hard traditionalists some real competition. And it's nice to hear Marco Bertoletti is a nice bloke as I own a Legend. I'm sure most on this forum love pretty bikes. I'm not ashamed to confess I can spend a lot of time just looking at my bikes and appreciating them in the same way I might enjoy a fine work of art.

Just like ugo, I've been known to rant about our consumerist society and the obsession with having the best house and the flashiest car. Cookery is becoming something of a lost skill, yet look at the silly money people pay to have kitchens with central "islands", granite work surfaces, Belfast sinks and ridiculously expensive cookers only to heat up ready meals. OK I've got five bikes, all mid to high end. But in the grand scheme of things, cycling is a relatively cheap hobby. I only have to think of the money I spent over the years on (mostly Italian) motorcycles until bicycles took over my life.

ugo.santalucia

Mercia Man wrote:

OK I've got five bikes, all mid to high end. But in the grand scheme of things, cycling is a relatively cheap hobby.

It's not... the bicycle is of course a thing of beauty, as Mark Twain among others pointed out... possibly the only instrument with a chain that renders you free instead of making you a slave... but is it? When people can't sleep at night because they have matched Shimano wheels on a Campagnolo bike, when people feel inadequate for not having the latest carbon offer... when people need to spend money on a daily basis to fuel the hobby... is it still a weapon of freedom?

EDIT: you'll be pleased to know I cook everything from scratch on the two out of four electric cookers that still work and an oven that could do with a good clean... :roll:

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Bingo - possibly, just possibly, the new breed might push things forward.

Of that I am not so sure... it seems to me the average customer wants pretty rather than performance... for performance generally carbon is the choice. Seeing the awards Ricky Feather got, looks like we are going backwards...

That aside, the long wait and steep price of a custom frame is not going to do much to increase the customer base. The renaissance is due to a small number of wealthy collectors who got interested in something bespoke. Personally, I think having more than 2 recreational bikes is part of an obsessive behaviour...
You can't have enough bedrooms or floor space, you can't have enough BHP, you can't have enough bikes... it's just part of an extreme consumerism which is a symptom of decadent society...

Is feeding the beast and milking it going to satisfy me as an independent artisan? I am not sure... someone must have a bit of vision, or at least integrity FFS!

When the guy who travels around the world on a bike does so on a Genesis, should the artisan not see it as a missed opportunity? Am I just being a moaner?

I must admit I don't understand the plaudits Feather gets. His frames look old fashioned and poorly designed. Some of them considering they're made-to-measure have a foot of headset spacers. It's one thing putting some tubes together nicely, it's another making a frame that's well balanced and works perfectly with the rider. This is where a very good understanding of geometry and frame design comes in.

gweeds

There is, as always, a middle ground.

I see little wrong with people working hard, falling in love with a sport and form of exercise, and choosing to spend their money on it. Better that than getting bladdered twice a week.

Nor I see any lack of integrity when a framebuilder charges what he and a customer decide is a fair price for the work done. Whether that's £700 or £2700 matters little.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Nor I see any lack of integrity when a framebuilder charges what he and a customer decide is a fair price for the work done. Whether that's £700 or £2700 matters little.

I put it to you... for you it doesn't make any difference who asks for your service as long as they pay? Say for instance you are asked to take photos of an event you disapprove of... two youngsters who never met before, but the families have arranged a wedding... or someone who wants to spend 5 grand on a photo-shoot of his dogs during hunting, or something equally pathetic

I am not saying it's the same thing... but wouldn't it be nice to build a frame for someone who needs it? And if he is prepared to wait 18 months, does he actually need it? The answer can only be no... it's just a caprice... if you only build frames for people who don't actually need them, either you are lobotomised or at some point you will have an identity crisis... I would say... :roll:

gweeds

So frame building is some sort of public service driven only by need? Really? Why stop there? Frame builders are running businesses, to pay mortgages and feed their families......who determines need? Where is the line drawn? Who's to say someone charging £2k for a frame doesn't send bikes to Africa, or work for a charity getting UK kids on bikes. They might choose to not shout about it.

I've photographed everything from 2 people elopements in Paris to 500 guests in London. Who the hell am I to decide how people spend their money? My price is my price. I've also shot, for free, families where their child has been stillborn and they want something to remember them by (and believe me that's not easy) - but you won't see that anywhere on my site.

If people think I'm worth it they'll pay if that's what they want, and if they don't there are plenty cheaper (and plenty more expensive). I'm not arrogant enough to act as the final arbiter of who spends what and where. I am, after all, running a business. This is my living.

flintlock

solboy10 wrote:

Would you guys say £1450 for a new custom Legend Fedaia F&F was good value?

Where from if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks

letap73

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Bingo - possibly, just possibly, the new breed might push things forward.

Of that I am not so sure... it seems to me the average customer wants pretty rather than performance... for performance generally carbon is the choice. Seeing the awards Ricky Feather got, looks like we are going backwards...

That aside, the long wait and steep price of a custom frame is not going to do much to increase the customer base. The renaissance is due to a small number of wealthy collectors who got interested in something bespoke. Personally, I think having more than 2 recreational bikes is part of an obsessive behaviour...
You can't have enough bedrooms or floor space, you can't have enough BHP, you can't have enough bikes... it's just part of an extreme consumerism which is a symptom of decadent society...

Is feeding the beast and milking it going to satisfy me as an independent artisan? I am not sure... someone must have a bit of vision, or at least integrity FFS!

When the guy who travels around the world on a bike does so on a Genesis, should the artisan not see it as a missed opportunity? Am I just being a moaner?

I must admit I don't understand the plaudits Feather gets. His frames look old fashioned and poorly designed. Some of them considering they're made-to-measure have a foot of headset spacers. It's one thing putting some tubes together nicely, it's another making a frame that's well balanced and works perfectly with the rider. This is where a very good understanding of geometry and frame design comes in.

How exactly are Feather's bikes poorly designed? I am intrigued to see evidence of a bike he has designed with "a foot of headset spacers". His peers - fellow frame builders and his customers rate him very highly there must be good reason behind this.

LegendLust

letap73 wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Bingo - possibly, just possibly, the new breed might push things forward.

Of that I am not so sure... it seems to me the average customer wants pretty rather than performance... for performance generally carbon is the choice. Seeing the awards Ricky Feather got, looks like we are going backwards...

That aside, the long wait and steep price of a custom frame is not going to do much to increase the customer base. The renaissance is due to a small number of wealthy collectors who got interested in something bespoke. Personally, I think having more than 2 recreational bikes is part of an obsessive behaviour...
You can't have enough bedrooms or floor space, you can't have enough BHP, you can't have enough bikes... it's just part of an extreme consumerism which is a symptom of decadent society...

Is feeding the beast and milking it going to satisfy me as an independent artisan? I am not sure... someone must have a bit of vision, or at least integrity FFS!

When the guy who travels around the world on a bike does so on a Genesis, should the artisan not see it as a missed opportunity? Am I just being a moaner?

I must admit I don't understand the plaudits Feather gets. His frames look old fashioned and poorly designed. Some of them considering they're made-to-measure have a foot of headset spacers. It's one thing putting some tubes together nicely, it's another making a frame that's well balanced and works perfectly with the rider. This is where a very good understanding of geometry and frame design comes in.

How exactly are Feather's bikes poorly designed? I am intrigued to see evidence of a bike he has designed with "a foot of headset spacers". His peers - fellow frame builders and his customers rate him very highly there must be good reason behind this.

My comment was based on images I saw of his bikes in a book and also his first ever builds. Looking at the bikes on his site now there is no evidence of 'loads of spacers' and I'll eat my words but some of them look very nice and contemporary.

Knowing his background and the fact he's self taught, no doubt as he's gained experience he's learned the subleties of geometry etc

on-yer-bike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

Have a read of the Rouleur edition with their interview with Irio Tommasini. His thoughts on the 'new' guys who take weeks to build a frame is good reading!

I need to get hold of that...!

i dont think you would spend £10 on a magazine

ugo.santalucia

on-yer-bike wrote:

i dont think you would spend £10 on a magazine

Of course not... I'l have to borrow

gweeds

https://paolociaberta.files.wordpress.c ... asini1.pdf

jimwalsh

come on ugo... I am sure you have built a few wheels that are way over the top for their intended use?

ugo.santalucia

jimwalsh wrote:

come on ugo... I am sure you have built a few wheels that are way over the top for their intended use?

Yes, but not many...

Dizeee

Dizeee wrote:

I have only reached page 2 but maybe this is the correct thread to ask my question. What do the Italians think of De Rosa?

I have had mine now for a couple of years and love it, it is a sublime ride and what it allows me to achieve on the road makes me believe it speaks for itself in terms of quality. I have no intention of changing and am actually in the process of spending a vast amount this year on upgrades, namely a very good set of wheels.

That said, the mere fact I own a De Rosa seems to be more of a controversy than a triumph. Some of you will know me from another bike forum where my bike is continually slated for alledgedly being a Chinese generic open mould used by Ribble (despite me not even owning the 838 which is the model affected by this). When that's not being quoted, I get comments about overpricing, mass manafacture, cheap Taiwanese junk and so on and so forth. None of my riding buddies seem to take this approach with me so it may be restricted to that particular forum which is renowned for being particularly, what's the word - unforgiving.

It doesn't really matter to me either way but I am intrigued at the general concensus especially from the home land

Ugo - you missed my post on page 4! Thoughts?

ugo.santalucia

Dizeee wrote:

Dizeee wrote:

I have only reached page 2 but maybe this is the correct thread to ask my question. What do the Italians think of De Rosa?

I have had mine now for a couple of years and love it, it is a sublime ride and what it allows me to achieve on the road makes me believe it speaks for itself in terms of quality. I have no intention of changing and am actually in the process of spending a vast amount this year on upgrades, namely a very good set of wheels.

That said, the mere fact I own a De Rosa seems to be more of a controversy than a triumph. Some of you will know me from another bike forum where my bike is continually slated for alledgedly being a Chinese generic open mould used by Ribble (despite me not even owning the 838 which is the model affected by this). When that's not being quoted, I get comments about overpricing, mass manafacture, cheap Taiwanese junk and so on and so forth. None of my riding buddies seem to take this approach with me so it may be restricted to that particular forum which is renowned for being particularly, what's the word - unforgiving.

It doesn't really matter to me either way but I am intrigued at the general concensus especially from the home land

Ugo - you missed my post on page 4! Thoughts?

I have not read any opinion one way or the other.

gweeds

My feeling is that any brand keen to market with an emphasis on heritage and history would do well to avoid open mould badge engineering. It serves only to cheapen the brand and is a short term strategy.

ugo.santalucia

I read the article, I don't think Tommasini is being so negative... I think his point is that they are a new breed of "garage builders" which don't have the ambition to grow and and give jobs to the local community. You have to understand the region where he comes from has always had a very strong socialist tradition. The current left wing prime minister in Italy was mayor of Florence.
What he seems to ignore is that large scale "manufacturing" has to compete with China, which is of course very difficult... impossible? I don't think so... it is reasonable to think the days of manufacturing in the western world are not over and might come back... history likes to repeat itself