Reasonably priced Italian steel stallions

gweeds

So you're after low-end disruption here?

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

So you're after low-end disruption here?

I suggest you go elsewhere and disrupt some other thread, I'm not known for my patience... you are doing well in the PRO race section, keep at it...

mercia_man

I've just spent an interesting hour looking at http://www.bespoked.cc listing the exhibitors at the UK Handmade Bicycle Show in April. Some really beautiful creations for those who appreciate bikes as works of art. And are willing to wait a long time and pay a lot of money to fulfil their dream.

But I also spotted a couple of out-of-London steel custom makers in small workshops who might fit into ugo's hard-to-find category of cheaper bespoke bikes. Sword Cycles, based in Derbyshire, (http://www.swordcycles.co.uk) offer frame and forks from £800 and Sturdy Cycles, based in Powys, (www.sturdycycles.co.uk) start at £1,000. These appear to be totally custom one-off frames rather than semi-production builds from standard tubesets. Nice looking bikes and persuasive websites. They would appear to compete on price with the Italian builders mentioned.

ugo.santalucia

Mercia Man wrote:

I've just spent an interesting hour looking at http://www.bespoked.cc listing the exhibitors at the UK Handmade Bicycle Show in April. Some really beautiful creations for those who appreciate bikes as works of art. And are willing to wait a long time and pay a lot of money to fulfil their dream.

But I also spotted a couple of out-of-London steel custom makers in small workshops who might fit into ugo's hard-to-find category of cheaper bespoke bikes. Sword Cycles, based in Derbyshire, (http://www.swordcycles.co.uk) offer frame and forks from £800 and Sturdy Cycles, based in Powys, (http://www.sturdycycles.co.uk) start at £1,000. These appear to be totally custom one-off frames rather than semi-production builds from standard tubesets. Nice looking bikes and persuasive websites. They would appear to compete on price with the Italian builders mentioned.

Well, spotted, they would indeed...

woolwich

Mercia Man wrote:

I've just spent an interesting hour looking at http://www.bespoked.cc listing the exhibitors at the UK Handmade Bicycle Show in April.

I cant recommend a day at this show high enough. Plenty more to see, meet and talk to. I never fail to come away utterly impressed in one way or another.
Just be sure to get there early, if your into your bikes it really takes a full day to take it all in.

src1

Why the focus on custom/made to measure Ugo?

Given sufficient choice, off the peg should give the vast majority what they want (or need) and at a most cost effective price.

I've noticed a diversification in the road bike market over the last few years, with brands like Genesis, Kinesis, Mason & Bowman offering some really interesting frames at prices will below the traditional custom market.

lostboysaint

SRC1 wrote:

Why the focus on custom/made to measure Ugo?

Given sufficient choice, off the peg should give the vast majority a reasonable compromise and at a most cost effective price.

Edited for accuracy. You may not have noticed but people do come in a variety of sizes and shapes.

src1

I do accept the S/M/L sizes we've had to choose from are too much of a compromise, but I don't think many need full custom given a decent range of sizes.

lostboysaint

Given that they can spend hundreds on ridiculous length stems/seatposts/stack heights/stem angles/seat positions and all those other variables to make a compromise frame fit them properly rather than just getting one made and having to not work at getting it right?!

MisterMuncher

I don't think the need for custom build is always down to sizing or fit, though. There are those on the outside edges of size and relative proportion who might, certainly. For the majority, it's like a bike fitting. An expensive way to mildly tweak something that might well be absolutely grand.

ugo.santalucia

SRC1 wrote:

Why the focus on custom/made to measure Ugo?

Given sufficient choice, off the peg should give the vast majority what they want (or need) and at a most cost effective price.

I've noticed a diversification in the road bike market over the last few years, with brands like Genesis, Kinesis, Mason & Bowman offering some really interesting frames at prices will below the traditional custom market.

There isn't much choice actually... 18 months ago I was after a steel CX frame for disc with a more racey/aggressive geometry. Fugio was pretty much the only one that fitted the bill... as the All City bike one had a steel fork and wasn't available anywhere and the Ritchey wasn't out yet... even if it had been out, they both come in black which I do hate. So I got a frame which is fine for me in a hideous colour. I would have liked to be able to have something made to measure rather than guess a size, in the colour I wanted for similar money or a tad more and fuss free...

mercia_man

SRC1 wrote:

I do accept the S/M/L sizes we've had to choose from are too much of a compromise, but I don't think many need full custom given a decent range of sizes.

Very few people are so big, small or oddly shaped that they actually need a full custom frame. The main advantage of a bespoke steel frame is the quality of construction and the care taken to ensure the tubes are properly mitred, allowed to cool thoroughly after brazing or welding and built perfectly straight, resulting in a more responsive ride. At least that's what my framebuilder told me.

Going custom means you can have the tubing, colour and geometry you want and special features such as extra braze-ons. And it's a good customer experience speaking personally to the builder, deciding exactly what you want and ridng away on a unique bike.

Of course, standard production bikes built in large factories offer great value for money. It's basically down to whether you are prepared to pay extra money for something different.

ugo.santalucia

Mercia Man wrote:

It's basically down to whether you are prepared to pay extra money for something different.

Yes, exactly and this thread aims to assess how much or little extra you need to pay. One thing that I have noticed is how what was 1K a few years ago and within reach, now has become 2 K and out of reach, where the cost of living has only gone up 20% at best.

gweeds

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mercia Man wrote:

It's basically down to whether you are prepared to pay extra money for something different.

Yes, exactly and this thread aims to assess how much or little extra you need to pay. One thing that I have noticed is how what was 1K a few years ago and within reach, now has become 2 K and out of reach, where the cost of living has only gone up 20% at best.

I'm back

Those ones suggested on the previous page do look like a serious option for a very sensible price.

I wonder if it's mainly the 'big names' (a la Feather/Donhou) that are charging the £2k+ money (or have you found that's not the case from others you've seen).

Also worth talking to Jake Rusby at www.rusbycycles.co.uk - he built mine (XCr) with me faffing about with little detail requests etc for £1400 painted....he's London based.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mercia Man wrote:

It's basically down to whether you are prepared to pay extra money for something different.

Yes, exactly and this thread aims to assess how much or little extra you need to pay. One thing that I have noticed is how what was 1K a few years ago and within reach, now has become 2 K and out of reach, where the cost of living has only gone up 20% at best.

I'm back

Those ones suggested on the previous page do look like a serious option for a very sensible price.

I wonder if it's mainly the 'big names' (a la Feather/Donhou) that are charging the £2k+ money (or have you found that's not the case from others you've seen).

Also worth talking to Jake Rusby at http://www.rusbycycles.co.uk - he built mine (XCr) with me faffing about with little detail requests etc for £1400 painted....he's London based.

What has happened is that the market has grown, when 10 years ago it was almost dead. As a consequence many thought it was time to capitalise and charge as much as people are prepared to pay for their work... sometimes without even having the heritage of some Italian Masters... at the end of the day WTF are these people? Where were they when steel did matter and races were won on steel?

In return the customer gets a product which is refined to the last detail, but in essence not better than what a master can build in a day for a lot less money. I would have preferred others to see the opportunity to expand, maybe take in an apprentice and keep the prices within reason. The former approach seems to have prevailed, but I think it's fear rather than that being the only option. In a way appealing to the luxury market is playing it safe... it's recession proof

gweeds

Most probably weren't born! I'm guessing the last time steel was raced at the top level was what, late 90's and even then more aluminium in the race to have the lightest?

The mass-market carbon approach was always going to open up the road for hand-made stuff to come back (much like people still spend masses on vinyl).

mercia_man

Glad to see you back, Guy. I at least valued your input. Your Rusby is one of the nicest bikes I've ever seen. Under-stated quality. All the bikes pictured on Rusby's website are my kind of bikes. I think the price you paid was good value.

I think the spiralling cost for custom frames is partly due to the influence of the US handmade scene in which bikes have become almost works of jewellery. Form v function. It's spread over here, but not so much in Europe. I love those fancy bespoke frames by Feather etc. But if I was getting another bike (and I shouldn't really as I already have five, three of them custom frames), I would spend less money and have a chat with Tom Sturdy, whose SturdyCycles workshop isn't that far from me on the Powys/Shropshire border.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

The mass-market carbon approach was always going to open up the road for hand-made stuff to come back (much like people still spend masses on vinyl).

Yes and the success Genesis is experiencing clearly shows there is a market for reasonably priced steel at all levels... MTB, touring, cross, road... hence even reasonably priced bespoke has to come back... as Woolwich pointed out maybe it won't be topping the google ranking, but hopefully it will get the exposure it deserves

cerutticolumn

Hi all,
Found the thread so interesting that I've registered with the site!
Anyway, my own experience might help to answer ugo's question as to why no 'reasonable' prices for custom steel.
In 1994 i bought a Joe Waugh frameset - Reynolds 653 - made by Dave Yeats's workshop for 350pounds. Looking at his website today, a Reynolds 631 frameset now costs 1100. The difference? I think he explains it quite well in an interview on the Rapha site - until the mid 1990s he had 5 people making frames, at a rate of one a day. He would do the measuring up and special builds. Then came the aluminium and carbon frames mass produced in the Far East. Fast forward twenty years, he is on his own. Where before he spread the fixed costs over 25 frames a week, now that has to be done over what? 2? What with that and inflation, I think it's easy to imagine why prices have tripled in this period.

ugo.santalucia

cerutticolumn wrote:

Hi all,
Found the thread so interesting that I've registered with the site!
Anyway, my own experience might help to answer ugo's question as to why no 'reasonable' prices for custom steel.
In 1994 i bought a Joe Waugh frameset - Reynolds 653 - made by Dave Yeats's workshop for 350pounds. Looking at his website today, a Reynolds 631 frameset now costs 1100. The difference? I think he explains it quite well in an interview on the Rapha site - until the mid 1990s he had 5 people making frames, at a rate of one a day. He would do the measuring up and special builds. Then came the aluminium and carbon frames mass produced in the Far East. Fast forward twenty years, he is on his own. Where before he spread the fixed costs over 25 frames a week, now that has to be done over what? 2? What with that and inflation, I think it's easy to imagine why prices have tripled in this period.

one a day... exactly... 1100 is not a bad price... I would draw a line on a grand, but it's not far off... the problem is that the market is invaded by folks that charge a lot more than that. Roberts for the Master, which I do like rather a lot, charges 1400 frame only... then add another couple of hundreds for a pair of carbon forks and you are at 1600... and the waiting list... book now for your retirement... :roll:

mercia_man

cerutticolumn wrote:

Hi all,
Found the thread so interesting that I've registered with the site!
Anyway, my own experience might help to answer ugo's question as to why no 'reasonable' prices for custom steel.
In 1994 i bought a Joe Waugh frameset - Reynolds 653 - made by Dave Yeats's workshop for 350pounds. Looking at his website today, a Reynolds 631 frameset now costs 1100. The difference? I think he explains it quite well in an interview on the Rapha site - until the mid 1990s he had 5 people making frames, at a rate of one a day. He would do the measuring up and special builds. Then came the aluminium and carbon frames mass produced in the Far East. Fast forward twenty years, he is on his own. Where before he spread the fixed costs over 25 frames a week, now that has to be done over what? 2? What with that and inflation, I think it's easy to imagine why prices have tripled in this period.

Welcome aboard. This thread is a welcome change from people talking about identikit monocoque carbon frames with Ultegra groupsets and deep section carbon wheels! Even if there is the occasional spat.

gweeds

Mercia Man wrote:

Welcome aboard. This thread is a welcome change from people talking about identikit monocoque carbon frames with Ultegra groupsets and deep section carbon wheels! Even if there is the occasional spat.

I'VE JUST BOUGHT ONE OF THOSE! :shock:

gweeds

Mercia Man wrote:

Glad to see you back, Guy. I at least valued your input. Your Rusby is one of the nicest bikes I've ever seen. Under-stated quality. All the bikes pictured on Rusby's website are my kind of bikes. I think the price you paid was good value.

I think the spiralling cost for custom frames is partly due to the influence of the US handmade scene in which bikes have become almost works of jewellery. Form v function. It's spread over here, but not so much in Europe. I love those fancy bespoke frames by Feather etc. But if I was getting another bike (and I shouldn't really as I already have five, three of them custom frames), I would spend less money and have a chat with Tom Sturdy, whose SturdyCycles workshop isn't that far from me on the Powys/Shropshire border.

Thanks - i think it was money well spent and Jake is a genuinely lovely bloke. Nothing is too much trouble and he's a great eye for design

cerutticolumn

Mercia Man wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Hi all,
Found the thread so interesting that I've registered with the site!
Anyway, my own experience might help to answer ugo's question as to why no 'reasonable' prices for custom steel.
In 1994 i bought a Joe Waugh frameset - Reynolds 653 - made by Dave Yeats's workshop for 350pounds. Looking at his website today, a Reynolds 631 frameset now costs 1100. The difference? I think he explains it quite well in an interview on the Rapha site - until the mid 1990s he had 5 people making frames, at a rate of one a day. He would do the measuring up and special builds. Then came the aluminium and carbon frames mass produced in the Far East. Fast forward twenty years, he is on his own. Where before he spread the fixed costs over 25 frames a week, now that has to be done over what? 2? What with that and inflation, I think it's easy to imagine why prices have tripled in this period.

Welcome aboard. This thread is a welcome change from people talking about identikit monocoque carbon frames with Ultegra groupsets and deep section carbon wheels! Even if there is the occasional spat.

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

ugo.santalucia

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

cerutticolumn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

You might be right, ugo. If I was in the market for a new frame, it would be nice to have that option available.
Then, of course is the question of frame welders. Would they be easy to find, train?

ugo.santalucia

cerutticolumn wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

You might be right, ugo. If I was in the market for a new frame, it would be nice to have that option available.
Then, of course is the question of frame welders. Would they be easy to find, train?

There are plenty of badly paid young bike mechanics that dream to become frame builders... I know a few...

cerutticolumn

Sounds like all you need now is (quite) a few grand and you'll be in business!

cycleclinic

I also think the other reason to go custom is get what you want. For me that's a horizontal top tube a pump peg, head tube rings for the cable to prevent rub and the tube diameters I want with the geometry I like And a fork that does not have straight blades. While many of the pegs frames have some of these things they rarely have all.

maybe all the fugio needs is a repaint and a custom fork made and painted in a colour you like. Maybe it's beyond that. I know I turned a bike I didn't like much into one I do by getting a custom fork made some choice braze ons added and a repaint.

matt-h

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

Exactly why I bought my Volare 853
Good price and delivered in a week

Matt