Reasonably priced Italian steel stallions

FatTed

I didn't mind waiting a year for my llewellyn bike. It took a week to build the bike. I got exactly what I asked for. Had a fitting by the person (Dazza)making me my bike, which was important to me. I wanted Horizontal top tube and straight steel forks and for some reason a stem of 100 mm with no spacers.

ugo.santalucia

FatTed wrote:

I didn't mind waiting a year for my llewellyn bike. It took a week to build the bike. I got exactly what I asked for. Had a fitting by the person (Dazza)making me my bike, which was important to me. I wanted Horizontal top tube and straight steel forks and for some reason a stem of 100 mm with no spacers.

And that's fine... but the reason the market is niche is because you have to wait one year... most people can't be bothered... I'd say 4-6 weeks is reasonable

mercia_man

ugo.santalucia wrote:

FatTed wrote:

I didn't mind waiting a year for my llewellyn bike. It took a week to build the bike. I got exactly what I asked for. Had a fitting by the person (Dazza)making me my bike, which was important to me. I wanted Horizontal top tube and straight steel forks and for some reason a stem of 100 mm with no spacers.

And that's fine... but the reason the market is niche is because you have to wait one year... most people can't be bothered... I'd say 4-6 weeks is reasonable

For waiting times to come down to a reasonable period, we need to have more frame builders coming onto the scene. And that seems to be happening, judging by the variety and number of forthcoming exhibitors at the UK Handmade Bike Show. I was surprised and encouraged. I think this will mean greater competition and, hopefully, better prices and shorter waiting times.

While the concept of heritage is appealing, I think it is great to see young frame builders with fresh ideas emerging on the scene. Just because somebody's grandfather made race winning steel frames in Italy in the 70s doesn't necessarily mean the modern generation of the firm will be making better frames than younger companies. You don't have to be a former or current racer to make a good cycle frame. There's plenty of past and current good frame builders who have not had a racing career.

gweeds

Mercia Man wrote:

While the concept of heritage is appealing, I think it is great to see young frame builders with fresh ideas emerging on the scene. Just because somebody's grandfather made race winning steel frames in Italy in the 70s doesn't necessarily mean the modern generation of the firm will be making better frames than younger companies. You don't have to be a former or current racer to make a good cycle frame. There's plenty of past and current good frame builders who have not had a racing career.

True that.

I'd go further and say that the younger generation are pushing steel forward and making it a genuine alternative again. Some of the engineering and craft is world class.

FatTed

ugo.santalucia wrote:

FatTed wrote:

I didn't mind waiting a year for my llewellyn bike. It took a week to build the bike. I got exactly what I asked for. Had a fitting by the person (Dazza)making me my bike, which was important to me. I wanted Horizontal top tube and straight steel forks and for some reason a stem of 100 mm with no spacers.

And that's fine... but the reason the market is niche is because you have to wait one year... most people can't be bothered... I'd say 4-6 weeks is reasonable

If the builder is successful, there will always be a longish wait, you could go semicustom such as IF, but then you have no relationship with the builder.

gweeds

Plus it assumes all builders want to build for volume/speed. Some will, some won't. Valid reasons and markets for both. It may well be that the success of the higher-end (which will be limited in terms of those willing to pay) provides more entrants at the lower-end who do aim for volume/speed/price.

meesterbond

FatTed wrote:

If the builder is successful, there will always be a longish wait, you could go semicustom such as IF, but then you have no relationship with the builder.

If by IF you mean Indy Fab, they're full custom. The waiting time isn't excessive though. They quoted 8 weeks for a Steel Planet X with Christmas in the way and apparently the frame was done in 7. Very few of the U.S. builders I looked at had anything approaching a year - only the really niche ones. Even the Pegorettis are 3-6 months delivery... It's only the Responsorium that has a >1 year lead time.

Interesting debate though. I'm sure there is a market for cheaper custom frames although do you go more down the 'made to measure' route than true bespoke. A much smaller number of options to reduce the overheads and production time rather than starting with a blank sheet of paper.

Moonbiker

"Off the peg" steel would do me as im not fussed about paint jobs (happy with a single colour plain frame) don't have e.g really deviantly long arms down past my knees etc so no need for some weird custom geometry either.

Would just like a range of nice steel frames you can click and buy, in a full range of c-t cm sizes not just small med large.

Doesn't seem to be many places doing that though, apart from ritchley & genesis & just found this also:



EDIT weighs 3.1kg :shock: Suppose Columbus cromor must be a heavy tubing?

http://bombtrack.com/parts/frames/hook-frameset/

gweeds

3.1kg. Cripes

ugo.santalucia

Moonbiker wrote:

"Off the peg" steel would do me as im not fussed about paint jobs (happy with a single colour plain frame) don't have e.g really deviantly long arms down past my knees etc so no need for some weird custom geometry either.

Would just like a range of nice steel frames you can click and buy, in a full range of c-t cm sizes not just small med large.

Doesn't seem to be many places doing that though, apart from ritchley & genesis & just found this also:



EDIT weighs 3.1kg :shock: Suppose Columbus cromor must be a heavy tubing?

http://bombtrack.com/parts/frames/hook-frameset/

Yeah, Cromor is a rather heavy walled tubing, 0.7 or so in the butted section... tends to build a frame 200-300 grams heavier than Nivacrom types of steel per equal tube section

Moonbiker

Full build isn't to heavy though @ 10.3kg.

ugo.santalucia

Moonbiker wrote:

Full build isn't to heavy though @ 10.3kg.

Not light either... mine is under 10 Kg and most of the components are on the heavy side... I think all these CX steel frames are massively over engineered for the job they have to do... if you want to use them as MTBikes then fine, but most people don't... for mud and grass use you don't really need a tank

woolwich

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Not light either... mine is under 10 Kg and most of the components are on the heavy side... I think all these CX steel frames are massively over engineered for the job they have to do... if you want to use them as MTBikes then fine, but most people don't... for mud and grass use you don't really need a tank

To be fair Ugo, its not just Steel CX bikes that tend to be built strong. I weighed this one during the racing season http://locksidebikes.co.uk/?p=168 I forget the figure but it was more or less exactly the same weight as my mates Trek Ali CX bike, forget the model but only a season or so old. I guess Trek allow for maybe an 80kg rider who rides hard.

I've taken the bait though I have an entry to Leige Bastogne Leige in a couple of months so could do with a bike on a diet. I'll put a frame together specially for it and also to race in the Newbury Summer CX league.
As I said earlier I think we can trim a little but don't expect miracles, I am against engineering out all that is best in a steel frame. I'll use the thinnest stuff I am confident with for a 70kg rider (it wont be 0.4 wall or 0.6 butt end) and TIG it to save a little. We'll see what we can do.

ugo.santalucia

woolwich wrote:

I've taken the bait though I have an entry to Leige Bastogne Leige in a couple of months so could do with a bike on a diet. I'll put a frame together specially for it and also to race in the Newbury Summer CX league.
As I said earlier I think we can trim a little but don't expect miracles, I am against engineering out all that is best in a steel frame. I'll use the thinnest stuff I am confident with for a 70kg rider (it wont be 0.4 wall or 0.6 butt end) and TIG it to save a little. We'll see what we can do.

Awaiting photos... 8)

on-yer-bike

Here you go Paulo
http://www.condorcycles.com/Condor-Bike ... e.tpl.html
and its made in Italy.
Why have Rapha when you can have DHB?
Why have a an Audi when you can have a Ford?
Why have a Rolex when a Rotary does the same thing?
etc etc
You pays yer money and takes yer choice. I would much rather have a Pegoretti than the frame you showed earlier and if I couldnt afford it I'd go without. I have a Condor Fratello for a winter bike and compared to my Pegoretti its a complete dog to ride so in this instance I am getting something better by paying more.

ugo.santalucia

on-yer-bike wrote:

Here you go Paulo
http://www.condorcycles.com/Condor-Bike ... e.tpl.html
and its made in Italy.
Why have Rapha when you can have DHB?
Why have a an Audi when you can have a Ford?
Why have a Rolex when a Rotary does the same thing?
etc etc
You pays yer money and takes yer choice. I would much rather have a Pegoretti than the frame you showed earlier and if I couldnt afford it I'd go without. I have a Condor Fratello for a winter bike and compared to my Pegoretti its a complete dog to ride so in this instance I am getting something better by paying more.

Condor are made in Italy, probably by Vetta... you can buy a Vetta directly for half the money and made to measure in a steel of choice. The Fratello never wanted to be a race bike in the first place.

I am glad you are happy with your Pegoretti... and that your finances are solid... now leave this thread to the poor man out there

comsense

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Condor are made in Italy, probably by Vetta... you can buy a Vetta directly for half the money and made to measure in a steel of choice. The Fratello never wanted to be a race bike in the first place.

I am glad you are happy with your Pegoretti... and that your finances are solid... now leave this thread to the poor man out there

Have you seen this?

http://www.marcoramin.com/personal/vetta/

at risk of being off topic, I got lost on a spin near Cathollica last Sept. I met a group of older Italians. You may know the types - bodies of young men with old lads heads on them . All on gleaming Italian steel. Tried talking but they had no english and I had no Italian. I started calling out the names of Italian champions, Coppi, Bartoli, Saronni. They called back Irish names and we were getting a laugh out of this. Then I said Petacchi. I've no idea what Alajet did on these guys but one of them spit on the ground and launched into a tirade.Suddenly the pace went up and there was no more banter. I was glad when I recognised a road and was able to leave them to it.

ugo.santalucia

comsense wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Condor are made in Italy, probably by Vetta... you can buy a Vetta directly for half the money and made to measure in a steel of choice. The Fratello never wanted to be a race bike in the first place.

I am glad you are happy with your Pegoretti... and that your finances are solid... now leave this thread to the poor man out there

Have you seen this?

http://www.marcoramin.com/personal/vetta/

at risk of being off topic, I got lost on a spin near Cathollica last Sept. I met a group of older Italians. You may know the types - bodies of young men with old lads heads on them . All on gleaming Italian steel. Tried talking but they had no english and I had no Italian. I started calling out the names of Italian champions, Coppi, Bartoli, Saronni. They called back Irish names and we were getting a laugh out of this. Then I said Petacchi. I've no idea what Alajet did on these guys but one of them spit on the ground and launched into a tirade.Suddenly the pace went up and there was no more banter. I was glad when I recognised a road and was able to leave them to it.

Nice find!

They were probably upset that Petacchi was disqualified for doping... nobody should be banned for doping in Italy!

voodooman

Or even one of these (http://www.gunnarbikes.co.uk/crosshairs.html). These are off the peg, but you can order the full bespoke through Waterford in the US.

NB don't look at the weight. However a bloke I play cricket with has this in the sunset red. Heavy yes, but gorgeous in the flesh.

FatTed

meesterbond wrote:

FatTed wrote:

If the builder is successful, there will always be a longish wait, you could go semicustom such as IF, but then you have no relationship with the builder.

If by IF you mean Indy Fab, they're full custom. The waiting time isn't excessive though. They quoted 8 weeks for a Steel Planet X with Christmas in the way and apparently the frame was done in 7. Very few of the U.S. builders I looked at had anything approaching a year - only the really niche ones. Even the Pegorettis are 3-6 months delivery... It's only the Responsorium that has a >1 year lead time.

Interesting debate though. I'm sure there is a market for cheaper custom frames although do you go more down the 'made to measure' route than true bespoke. A much smaller number of options to reduce the overheads and production time rather than starting with a blank sheet of paper.

True , but you don't get to talk to the bloke who makes your bike.

ovi

how about this Ugo not sure of the cost though http://www.azione.cc/collection/inverno/

bmxboy10

Would you guys say £1450 for a new custom Legend Fedaia F&F was good value?

gweeds

Legend as in Bertoletti?

Yeah. I would.

ugo.santalucia

ovi wrote:

how about this Ugo not sure of the cost though http://www.azione.cc/collection/inverno/

Nice geometry...

bmxboy10

Gweeds wrote:

Legend as in Bertoletti?

Yeah. I would.

Yes

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Edit: D'oh, missed the word "steel" in my half awake state.

ugo.santalucia

NitrousOxide wrote:

Does the Viner Gladium Rival 22 for £640 using Ukdl20 count?

No

LegendLust

ovi wrote:

how about this Ugo not sure of the cost though http://www.azione.cc/collection/inverno/

That is a UK North East brand trying to be Italian but getting their steel frame made in the North East. As opposed to Condor who are a British brand who get their frames made in Italy :?

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

Have a read of the Rouleur edition with their interview with Irio Tommasini. His thoughts on the 'new' guys who take weeks to build a frame is good reading!

ugo.santalucia

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cerutticolumn wrote:

Thanks, Mercia. Yeah, it's refreshing to see modern steel generate so much interest. Maybe ugo is right and there is sufficient demand for steel frames to be built cheaper - more industrially, as it were.

I would not call it industrially... it's still hand made, just like it was... a frame a day... if some folks have a waiting list that stretches for years, surely one could work faster, charge less per unit and keep a waiting list of 4-6 weeks instead.
I have reasons to believe people buy a Genesis because you can order it online pressing a button and get it within days, if you could order a frame made to measure and have it in 4 weeks many would go that route

Have a read of the Rouleur edition with their interview with Irio Tommasini. His thoughts on the 'new' guys who take weeks to build a frame is good reading!

I need to get hold of that...!