Reasonably priced Italian steel stallions

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Why have you given up on carbon and aluminium, and why a decade ago - assume you've tried carbon in the intervening period?

A number of reasons... but I prefer not to discuss it here, or someone will start chipping in with their 10 years trouble free experience and the thread will go to the dogs.

matt_n-2

Mercia Man wrote:

Yeah, some of these waiting times are ridiculous for the trendiest artisan frame builders, particularly American ones like Rivendell and English. I'm sure it's because the modern fashion for artisan steel frames (I blame hipsters on fixies!) means builders have a long waiting list rather than guzzling tea at customers' expense. I think I waited three months for my Alves which I suppose was fair enough considering all the frames were made by one man in a small workshop.

But cycling is a fashion and image led pastime - you are what you ride - and people are willing to wait months for the latest far eastern mass-produced carbon models reviewed favourably by magazines. Look at the saga of disgruntled customers waiting for Canyons (me included until I went elsewhere in disgust) and the difficulty in finding the bike you want in stock at a shop near you.

I bet the Italians have the same problem.

2 year waiting list for a Feather is what I've heard too, he makes one bike a week apparently?

Surely it will reach a point when customers will look elsewhere as 2 years is absurd.

gweeds

Again that assumes all customer prioritise based on price and/or immediacy. That's just not the case.

Current waiting time for a custom Richard Sachs is what, 6 years. Hasn't done his business any harm. You want what he does? That's the wait. Take it or leave it. Plenty it seems will take it.

ugo.santalucia

Matt_N wrote:

2 year waiting list for a Feather is what I've heard too, he makes one bike a week apparently?

Surely it will reach a point when customers will look elsewhere as 2 years is absurd.

Hopefully threads like this one will help people discover that you don't have to wait 2 years and you don't have to pay over the odds to have a frame built for you.

Luxury always sells in a world of disegualities, but ultimately it is bad for society, as the people who can afford it are too few to make a real impact on the economy. If people bought more reasonably priced bespoke UK made frames, that would mean more jobs in manufacturing, which can only be a good thing

matt_n-2

Gweeds wrote:

Again that assumes all customer prioritise based on price and/or immediacy. That's just not the case.

Current waiting time for a custom Richard Sachs is what, 6 years. Hasn't done his business any harm. You want what he does? That's the wait. Take it or leave it. Plenty it seems will take it.

Only going on what somebody on another forum whose just got a Feather said.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Again that assumes all customer prioritise based on price and/or immediacy. That's just not the case.

Current waiting time for a custom Richard Sachs is what, 6 years. Hasn't done his business any harm. You want what he does? That's the wait. Take it or leave it. Plenty it seems will take it.

You seem to assume there is only one market, while I think there is more than one... I am sure there are plenty of people who can't be bothered with the wait and the extortionate price and buy a Genesis... there is a lack of offer... it's called a gap in the market...

ugo.santalucia

From Italy's Faggin... I like!

gweeds

Really Ugo - am I? Is that why I wrote this (which you never actually acknowledged):

'If you look at a market monolithically, simple maths dictates that the average will be most heavily influenced by the majority. And, income distributions being what they are, the majority of customers in any market will have less money, and likely be inclined to prioritize price. Ergo, monolithic market analysis necessarily concludes that customers prioritize price.

Markets, though, are not monolithic. They are wildly disparate, able to be endlessly segmented not just by income, but by a whole host of demographic and psychographic factors. In every market there is a segment of people who have the means to buy nice things, and there is a segment that values a superior experience. These segments quite often overlap.....

I think that's what we see here'

It seems to me that you're favouring the one market approach here. You are prioritising on price and immediacy, and seem to be saying that anyone who prioritises design/detail/paintwork/whatever is a fool for paying over the odds. You then throw up a massive straw man by suggesting that the existence of high-end builders is somehow preventing the gap in the market you see from existing. Yet you tell me the market is there. So which is it? There's no cause and effect here.

I'm absolutely NOT saying there's one market (and it baffles me how you can think that with what I've posted here). Instead I'm saying there are multiple markets - but that the existence of one (high-end bespoke) does not prevent the creation of another (low-end bespoke).

Side note - the one frame builder here considers a week about right to build a custom frame. Feather takes a week. People are prepared to pay him what he charges for the detail, craft (take a look at his Instagram feed and see the work he's doing for each frame) and paint jobs. Yet you're railing against that as somehow unjust. Why? I know someone with a Feather. He's not wealthy by any means, but he wanted a very specific build with a very specific paint job harking back to a childhood experience. Feather delivered that exactly and the buyer could not have been happier. How does that impact on you wanting a £700 fully custom frame? The issue here is that the market you want doesn't exist in any meaningful size. The existence of Feather, Donhou, Shand et al is irrelevant.

gweeds

Matt_N wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Again that assumes all customer prioritise based on price and/or immediacy. That's just not the case.

Current waiting time for a custom Richard Sachs is what, 6 years. Hasn't done his business any harm. You want what he does? That's the wait. Take it or leave it. Plenty it seems will take it.

Only going on what somebody on another forum whose just got a Feather said.

You're quite right - it wasn't a dig. See my post above for why people are prepared to wait.

Side note - if cameras (Leica) and handbags (Celine) can become Veblen goods, there's no reason why a bike can't. And high-end steel custom frames for £2500 vs an off the shelf Carbon for £4000 (Yes Pinarello et al).....

woolwich

ugo.santalucia wrote:

For the interest of the wider audience... do you think it's possible to build a CX disc frame that weighs a bit less than the current stuff on the market... my Fugio is 1.9 Kg, which seems to be average for this type of bike... is 1.4-1.5 Kg in a 54 size for someone around 70Kg asking too much to the material and geometry?

There may be a little scope for a trimming a bit but I wouldn't want to commit to a figure and it won't be massive. First the Fugio has modern styling, big tubes, big head tube. If you would accept a more traditional look, like for instance Ritchey's Swiss Cross a little could be saved.
I forget what fork you are running? The OE ones tend to weigh a bit. Offerings from the likes of Columbus can save a decent amount.

It is possible to shave a bit of weight from a frame ( cut corners if you will, less material where it's needed most) but you would compromise a lot of what is best about a steel frame. I have some reservations about the new super thin tubes, down to less than 0.4mm in some cases. I do not doubt the structural integrity, it's awesome stuff. But in the real world world it 'dings' easily. Also if you put a deep scratch in it there isn't much material left,never mind factoring in a touch of internal corrosion.
In my opinion these mega steels are best used for a sunday best type bike and not the cx, utility, durable bike you seek.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Really Ugo - am I? Is that why I wrote this (which you never actually acknowledged):

'If you look at a market monolithically, simple maths dictates that the average will be most heavily influenced by the majority. And, income distributions being what they are, the majority of customers in any market will have less money, and likely be inclined to prioritize price. Ergo, monolithic market analysis necessarily concludes that customers prioritize price.

Markets, though, are not monolithic. They are wildly disparate, able to be endlessly segmented not just by income, but by a whole host of demographic and psychographic factors. In every market there is a segment of people who have the means to buy nice things, and there is a segment that values a superior experience. These segments quite often overlap.....

I think that's what we see here'

It seems to me that you're favouring the one market approach here. You are prioritising on price and immediacy, and seem to be saying that anyone who prioritises design/detail/paintwork/whatever is a fool for paying over the odds. You then throw up a massive straw man by suggesting that the existence of high-end builders is somehow preventing the gap in the market you see from existing. Yet you tell me the market is there. So which is it? There's no cause and effect here.

I'm absolutely NOT saying there's one market (and it baffles me how you can think that with what I've posted here). Instead I'm saying there are multiple markets - but that the existence of one (high-end bespoke) does not prevent the creation of another (low-end bespoke).

Side note - the one frame builder here considers a week about right to build a custom frame. Feather takes a week. People are prepared to pay him what he charges for the detail, craft (take a look at his Instagram feed and see the work he's doing for each frame) and paint jobs. Yet you're railing against that as somehow unjust. Why? I know someone with a Feather. He's not wealthy by any means, but he wanted a very specific build with a very specific paint job harking back to a childhood experience. Feather delivered that exactly and the buyer could not have been happier. How does that impact on you wanting a £700 fully custom frame? The issue here is that the market you want doesn't exist in any meaningful size. The existence of Feather, Donhou, Shand et al is irrelevant.

Good stuff, but more to the point... starting price 700 Euro...

ugo.santalucia

woolwich wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

For the interest of the wider audience... do you think it's possible to build a CX disc frame that weighs a bit less than the current stuff on the market... my Fugio is 1.9 Kg, which seems to be average for this type of bike... is 1.4-1.5 Kg in a 54 size for someone around 70Kg asking too much to the material and geometry?

There may be a little scope for a trimming a bit but I wouldn't want to commit to a figure and it won't be massive. First the Fugio has modern styling, big tubes, big head tube. If you would accept a more traditional look, like for instance Ritchey's Swiss Cross a little could be saved.
I forget what fork you are running? The OE ones tend to weigh a bit. Offerings from the likes of Columbus can save a decent amount.

It is possible to shave a bit of weight from a frame ( cut corners if you will, less material where it's needed most) but you would compromise a lot of what is best about a steel frame. I have some reservations about the new super thin tubes, down to less than 0.4mm in some cases. I do not doubt the structural integrity, it's awesome stuff. But in the real world world it 'dings' easily. Also if you put a deep scratch in it there isn't much material left,never mind factoring in a touch of internal corrosion.
In my opinion these mega steels are best used for a sunday best type bike and not the cx, utility, durable bike you seek.

There you go... that's me sorted... all I need is a respray then, maybe I should PM you for that...

Actually the Fugio fork is 460 grams... it's a full carbon wonder made by ADK composites... or AMK... whatever, they make Felt frames... I broke it obviously and replaced it with a heavy duty Planet X in carbaluminium which seems to do fine even on drops and stuff... never seen any Columbus CX disc frame...

flasher

Surely the price of a bespoke frame depends on a lot of different factors, the cost of premises, materials, utilities, equipment, Tax, VAT, self worth.

Someone semi-retired living in Scotland working from their garage may knock you up a frame for £600 in a week, but a 30 year old with kids working from a professional workshop in the South East, would have to charge £2000, and then they'd be lucky to realise £800 for the week.

ugo.santalucia

Flasher wrote:

Surely the price of a bespoke frame depends on a lot of different factors, the cost of premises, materials, utilities, equipment, Tax, VAT, self worth.

Someone semi-retired living in Scotland working from their garage may knock you up a frame for £600 in a week, but a 30 year old with kids working from a professional workshop in the South East, would have to charge £2000, and then they'd be lucky to realise £800 for the week.

Totally... that's why if you want to be a framebuilder and cater for that market you need to live in County Durham rather than Surrey or Tower Hamlets

flasher

or China

lostboysaint

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Stuff

Good stuff, but more to the point... starting price 700 Euro...

REALLY, REALLY LIKE!

ugo.santalucia

lostboysaint wrote:

REALLY, REALLY LIKE!

And built up with reasonably priced components it doesn't look bad either...

ugo.santalucia

Flasher wrote:

or China

I don't think that's necessary. Remember out of the price of a 750 quid Genesis 853 frame, nearly half is the slice the retailer gets and another quarter is the slice Madison takes...

I don't think it's impossible for an artisan selling directly to match that price, at least for frame only.

gweeds

See - you ARE swayed by a paint job

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

See - you ARE swayed by a paint job

Not really... I was looking at the frame, which seems rather pretty for the money... the colour scheme is not my thing...

gweeds

What's the tubing?

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

What's the tubing?

No idea...

lostboysaint

Gweeds wrote:

What's the tubing?

Steel!

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Current waiting time for a custom Richard Sachs is what, 6 years.

If he charges a 30% deposit, he's basically paid 2 years in advance as an average... he must be laughing... who wouldn't want to collect his salarly slip for February 2017 tomorrow...?

gweeds

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

Current waiting time for a custom Richard Sachs is what, 6 years.

If he charges a 30% deposit, he's basically paid 2 years in advance as an average... he must be laughing... who wouldn't want to collect his salarly slip for February 2017 tomorrow...?

I take a 25% deposit when I take a booking, often 18 months to 2 years in advance......

But now you're hunting around for frames that meet your £700 price without knowing what they're made of or how they ride.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

But now you're hunting around for frames that meet your £700 price without knowing what they're made of or how they ride.

I have just made 2+ 2... his website says prices start at 700 Euro (which is not pounds) and I have taken a photo from the website... it could well be that frame costs 1000... I have no idea... the point is that there are reasonably priced artisans out there.
All of them work with Columbus and Deda tubings... some Genesis are made with Mjolnir...

Anyway, it's horses for courses, if you like a Pegoretti, go for it... this is not about comparing, but it's about showing that for the same money that buys you a Genesis, you can have a frame made to measure if you know where to look... I am not sure many people on the forum knew that... it's called spreading the word

gweeds

You don't know they're any good though - they might ride like a bag of spanners.

I'd like a set of handmade wheels for £300 but they need to weigh no more than 1300grams. Can you do me that?

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

You don't know they're any good though - they might ride like a bag of spanners.

I'd like a set of handmade wheels for £300 but they need to weigh no more than 1300grams. Can you do me that?

For some reason you don't like the idea of someone making a frame for less than the Status Quo... we got that... now you have to look inside yourself and wonder what exactly are you bringing to the discussion, other than skepticism...
The evidence I am gathering from Italian Forums is that you can get quality for your reasonable money, if you are prepared to drop the big name and the fancy paintwork.

gweeds

Yes - in Italy. I have no problem with someone charging £1 as long as they can make a living. Instead you've picked an arbitrary price point of £700 and are charging around trying to find one. You've done that - but you don't know much about them in terms of tubing, ride.....

But you're oddly ok for someone to charge good money for hand-built wheels....

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

But you're oddly ok for someone to charge good money for hand-built wheels....

Broadly speaking nobody does... there might be a couple of exceptions. I ALWAYS point to out when I think components are overly expensive for no extra gain, ALWAYS!