Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

zefs

bobones wrote:

If you're looking for Galactik's then Acycles have the Tubeless HDE for £30 in 23mm but the newer 11storm versions are a lot dearer ...

https://www.acycles.co.uk/road/tyres/ty ... 1/yes.html

Thanks, I get them when discounted, last time it was about 30pounds for galactik's on Starbike.

cycleclinic

I hope they don't or shops wont be able to sell them for a profit. I hope that conti sort out the supply so the price settles at a number where all retailers can make money. That will be cheaper than £70 but more than £40. Currently no one makes anything like a useful margin selling a conti tyre.

The best trade on a schwalbe pro one is around £30. The best price is a bit under £36 so you can see the problem as that £6 is the VAT.
With conti GP4000s the best price is around £30 but the best trade is a bit over £25 so to compete a shop has to make a loss once HMRC is paid.

You may think the lowest price is best but it is not,. I dont think even the online retailers make much on the tyres. £2 to £3 per tyre at best. profit margins for online retailer have fallen to single digits. Its not just the high street that in trouble.

So the price has to settle higher than the pro one even for wiggle's sake.

timothyw

You are rather eliminating the possibility that the trade price could (perhaps even should) fall.

The thing is, for me and I think Ugo, probably a few others, we've tried tubeless - it had some advantages, it also had a few disadvantages.

While we can get a 'good enough' tyre, such as the rubino pro, Michelin pro4 endurance etc for half the price of any tubeless tyres, we're going to stick with what we know best and avoid the hassle of switching over.

I'm willing to pay a small premium, not a big one.

ugo.santalucia

The advantages of tubeless have been extensively reviewed, the disadvatages I found are listed here in decreasing order of importance

1) Price is too high... not just the tyres, tape, valves and sealant are very pricey for what they are. Also, a special pump is required in most cases.

2) Tyres need to be fitted and used until they are worn... re-fitting can be problematic... this is a limitation if you want different tyres for different times of the year or want a dedicated fast tyre only for racing.

3) Tyres are very good until they are half way worn, at that point punctures become very frequent, weekly or even daily occurrences. This has been the case for Schwalbe, Hutchinson and Mavic

4) repairs are messy and difficult to carry out on the road

5) There is no reliable way to estimate when it's time to top up the sealant... shaking the tyre only reveals when it's too late.

6) Choice is still limited and availability still patchy.

ddraver

7) If you without a second pump, topping up the lost air with a little mini-pump is just unrealistic.

A small one I accept, but pertinent for me over the summer...

cycleclinic

To address ugo's points
1) replacing tubes is expensive too. Life span of all the clinchers I have used has been much shorter.
2) why would I want to remove the tyre to fit a different one? Each bike has tyres fitted that suit it. Yes refitting a used tubeless tyre can be problematic so don't do it.
3) when a tyre starts to puncture I change it. Buy that point I have got my moneys worth. It's generally more than half worn by that point.
4) plugging a tyre is not that messy. Generally changing a inner tube on a wet winters day will make my hands messier.
5) I know one user who uses a zip tie as a dip stick. I just top up when a small puncture does not seal well. I dont worry about do I have enough sealant. I really dont care.
6) why do you think I started importing tyres - so I have a good personal stock thats why. Its also why I started a bike shop so I have parts in stock. really that was the reason.
7) stopping to top up with air- why would you even think about doing that.

where you lot see problems I just see things that I never worry about.

ugo.santalucia

I have to say that none of your replies has done anything to address any of my points. I still have 6 unresolved issues.
As far as I am aware most people seem to switch tyres between summer and winter... there are even tyres marketed for winter/wet use. If you don't, you are probably in the minority.

Looking at your latest photo on Strava, maybe you should too...

timothyw

Yeah, I mean, I have 7 bikes, so the likelihood of needing or wanting to change tyres on any given wheelset on any given bike is pretty slim.

I also like building wheels so I have spare wheels knocking around too.

We are not normal though. Most people can't justify the expense/store that number of bikes, so changing tyres is pretty important - otherwise you're going to be riding on too flimsy tyres in winter/too dead tyres in summer.

I can also add to the disadvantages

8. when you do get a puncture/catastrophic tyre failure you need to clean your bike and shoes....

The 'replacing tubes is expensive too' argument unfortunately doesn't work because all the other tubeless paraphernalia (valves, tape, sealant, worms, patches) cost money too - and need to be replaced regularly to semi-regularly - and you need to carry an inner tube for last resort tubeless repair anyway!

Really though, it comes down to cost and availability. If I can get a half decent tubeless tyre for under £30 and not have to struggle to find them at that price I'm back on board - right now, I'm out.

zefs

I haven't experienced any of these issues yet after 5000+ km with tubeless setup but it's understandable that people are having problems since not every combination of wheel/tire is optimal and a lot of people try ghetto solutions.
No technology is perfect but the good thing about tubeless is if it doesn't work for you the wheels can work with tubes so there is no value loss as far as wheels go.

With Continental's 5000 TL tire coming out and if tubeless gets wider adoption maybe the technology improves for setups that don't work great yet, but we have recommended the optimal setups quite a few times on this forum although people who are having issues don't seem to be using these setups.

It's like using a carbon fiber bike from 10 years ago and complaining about the material, compared to today's options.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

TimothyW wrote:

Really though, it comes down to cost and availability. If I can get a half decent tubeless tyre for under £30 and not have to struggle to find them at that price I'm back on board - right now, I'm out.

https://www.merlincycles.com/road-bike- ... =price-min currently gives you two ~£30 options when added to basket with extra 10% discount, if I hadn't bought three sets of tyres recently that can be fitted on either bike I would almost certainly have taken a punt at the "Storm" variants and added them to my order yesterday.

ugo.santalucia

zefs wrote:

I haven't experienced any of these issues yet after 5000+ km with tubeless setup but it's understandable that people are having problems since not every combination of wheel/tire is optimal and a lot of people try ghetto solutions.
No technology is perfect but the good thing about tubeless is if it doesn't work for you the wheels can work with tubes so there is no value loss as far as wheels go.

With Continental's 5000 TL tire coming out and if tubeless gets wider adoption maybe the technology improves for setups that don't work great yet, but we have recommended the optimal setups quite a few times on this forum although people who are having issues don't seem to be using these setups.

It's like using a carbon fiber bike from 10 years ago and complaining about the material, compared to today's options.

I disagree with everything you say.
I am talking about tubeless tyres on tubeless rims and I am not talking about 10 years ago, I am talking abouta period ranging from 2014 to last summer.

As for the Conti 5000 TL, they will sell if they slash the price, at 75 Euro a pop they will not sell

zefs

That's what I am saying, tubeless tires and rims from 2014 are not the same with today, that's why I referenced old with new carbon...If it doesn't work for you why do you keep posting here? Use your tubed setup, the less arguing on this topic the easier it is to find info and get help about what actually works.

cycleclinic

I have ugo. On good year eagles now for commuting. Going to see what they are like long term. They have lasted all week thats a good start compared to the pardrone. Summer/winter tyres... If a tyre is unsuitable for year round use I have little interest in it.

I dont replace tape or tubeless valves regularly at all. the valve stem never comes out. I use a poky thing to clean it out and if the presta core becomes a bit clogged or refuses to seal well, that gets unscrewed cleaned up and re-inserted. If the tape is properly done it may get done every couple or three of tyres? The tape on my ailerons has survived 15000km of use, redone when fitting the padrones last weekend. Also rolls of Tesa 4289 are so cheap it cheaper than rim strip. I remember ugo you gave up on tubeless after getting a clogged valve. It happens but take 30 seconds to sort out.

so yes replacing tubes (as I never found repairs to be that reliable as if the patch fails....) was more expensive or as expensive. I got alot of punctures and I still do. It just now does not cost me the price of a tube each time.

So overall tubeless tyres have not cost me more that high end tubed tyres. I have never been one to go for the cheapest tyres anyway. I look at thing in terms of £/mile so setting a max price for a tyre makes little sense to me. I want to maximise £/mile while maximising comfort and grip. I don't care much about minimising the initial outlay (mainly because I don't drive much so the money I save I can spend on other things).

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

I remember ugo you gave up on tubeless after getting a clogged valve. It happens but take 30 seconds to sort out.
.

Ehmmm... no :roll:

I gave up tubeless out of frustration. Pretty much every tyre was awesome for a thousand miles, after which they all began to puncture frequently, sometimes daily, spraying latex all over the bike and my clothes. Inevitably the tyres were good for the bin... at 40 quid a pop it became a rather expensive enterprise.
Then I had to keep on top of sealant, every puncture needed a top up... basically a part time job just to make sure everything was ok.
The forks of my Fugio are still encrusted with hardened sealant...

zefs

So what tires are you using tubed, and you don't get punctures with them? Doesn't make sense since there are tubeless tires with identical puncture protection.

ugo.santalucia

zefs wrote:

So what tires are you using tubed, and you don't get punctures with them? Doesn't make sense since there are tubeless tires with identical puncture protection.

I've got Schwalbe Durano on one bike and Rubino Pro G+ on the other... they all came at 19.99 per tyre.

I've never used any tubeless tyre with specific puncture protection. I know they exist, but they are even pricier than the already expensive "normal" ones. Besides, it's a belt and braces approach, similar to filling inner tubes with sealant, a practice that I find a bit silly.

You don't puncture a lot in the midlands, it's not a land of flint, like Surrey or the Chilterns, that's why it was astonishing to get daily punctures on my way to work on tyres that had a lot of rubber left. It was always the same pattern... put them on in April, good until June, then when it gets warm they begin puncturing every day. Never quite figured out what was going on, but it kept happening on several sets of tyres. Got fed up of rubbing off sticky latex from my legs..

bobones

Tubeless needn't be that more expensive.

During last year's Black Friday sales I bought 2 x Fusion 5 Performance + 2 x Fusion 5 All Seasons from Acycles for a total of £60.25 delivered, so £15 per tyre. I rode the with All Seasons on my winter bike and the Performance on the good bike and I have not had a single puncture that needed anything other than a top up of air (once in 9k+ miles). The ride quality is excellent and both sets of tyres are still going strong.

I also got 2 x Maxxis Padrones for £40 (edit: it was actually £50) at the same time so there are deals to be had on good quality tubeless tyres. I don't really want to pay more than £35 for a tyre which is why I have yet to try any kind of IRC, and probably not the GP5000, because £45-70 for a tyre is just too much in my book (sorry Malcolm).

Tubeless tape at £15+ for 10m is just a rip off. I find this stuff in 22.2mm makes excellent tubeless tape, and the Cycle Clinic sells Tesa 4289 in big rolls at a decent price so there's no need to pay over the odds. A 50 or 66 m roll should last a good while!

Valves and sealant need not cost all that much: £4-5 for a pair of valves and £10 for a litre of sealant is pretty reasonable in my book.

What makes tubeless a hard sell IMO is the hassle of fitting tyres and the learning curve: even when I think I know everything, I still get occasions where a tyre won't inflate or won't stay up, usually due to user error, but an extra layer of tape or checking the valve seal usually fixes it.

I have had one spate of non-sealing punctures and worm failures that almost had me going back to tubes, but even then, whipping off the tyre and fitting a tube was not that difficult or messy. I've since moved from worms to dynaplugs (another expense) but I haven't yet needed to use them.

The dipstick method for checking sealant level works pretty well, but I always carry a small canister of pressurized sealant just in case. The Milkit system is another solution for checking and refilling sealant, but to me it's an expensive, non-essential luxury.

I did eventually splash out on a airshot-type tyre inflator, but I got by before that with a £10 garden sprayer from Screwfix, but I am now finding that most times a tyre will inflate with just a track pump if the rim is taped adequately. The Mavic Open Pro UST rims are great in this regard and also for their ability to keep fully deflated tyres securely sealed.

Most of my hassles with tubeless have been in the comfort of my garage, not at the side of the road. I definitely don't miss fixing roadside punctures or repairing/buying inner tubes and I find the ride quality is superior. I definitely won't be going back to tubes anytime soon, but I recognize the arguments that road tubeless is not quite ready for the masses.

timothyw

bobones wrote:

Tubeless needn't be that more expensive.

During last year's Black Friday sales I bought 2 x Fusion 5 Performance + 2 x Fusion 5 All Seasons from Acycles for a total of £60.25 delivered, so £15 per tyre. I rode the with All Seasons on my winter bike and the Performance on the good bike and I have not had a single puncture that needed anything other than a top up of air (once in 9k+ miles). The ride quality is excellent and both sets of tyres are still going strong.

Problem is, since last black friday I've not seen any prices close to that.

And one of the Fusion 5 Performance tyres I bought in that sale failed in a quite spectacular and unfixable fashion while still pretty new, which to be honest put me off buying them again (and was my fault for running them at the maximum pressure written on the side of the tyre.... go figure).

So yeah, you can buy them cheap one day a year, and you get them with a bonus manufacturing defect.

Still, if we see prices like that again on Black Friday I expect I'll give them/tubeless another go.

ugo.santalucia

Bobones' memory is also short... I also bought Padrone on black friday but they were 50 for the pair and not 40, which is still very good value, but stocking up on tyres once per year is not everyone's idea of fun. There is also a warranty problem in buying stock too much in advance

As for the Tesa tape, I used to buy rolls of it when I was building wheels... it's not very good... much thinner and more fragile than Stans and not very sticky on metal either.
Bearing in mind a tiny rupture in the tape can render the all tubeless setup completely useless, I'd say good quality tape is actually a must.

cycleclinic

The tape I have got ugo is not fragile. In fact I think it might be stans but I can't prove that. I can pull on this tape as hard as I like and it does not tear. Neither does it seem to tear when I make the valve hole so long as a fine pint is used (essential when using stans tape as well). 144 microns thick just like stans too. I have used stans alot and found it no better or worse than the tape I have got, it just cost too much to buy in bulk. There are different tesa tapes though so maybe that was the issue ugo. I sourced mine through a company in Ipswich.

I do get a bit more than 1000 miles before the tyres start to puncture. I have used different tyre to you though. Or maybe I am charmed (that is not likely though).

bobones

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bobones' memory is also short... I also bought Padrone on black friday but they were 50 for the pair and not 40, which is still very good value, but stocking up on tyres once per year is not everyone's idea of fun. There is also a warranty problem in buying stock too much in advance

As for the Tesa tape, I used to buy rolls of it when I was building wheels... it's not very good... much thinner and more fragile than Stans and not very sticky on metal either.
Bearing in mind a tiny rupture in the tape can render the all tubeless setup completely useless, I'd say good quality tape is actually a must.

You're right, it was £50. Memory failure true enough.

That green polyester powder coat masking tape I linked to is great stuff. Very strong, but stretchy enough and the glue holds well and peels off without leaving a residue. Only slight downside is that it's translucent so may not be aesthetically pleasing to some.

sloppyschleckonds

SigmaSport got the Padrones for £33 on their BF deals, sounds like not a good tyre for flinty areas mind

nachetetm

The Specialized Turbo 2bliss costs 36€ at the moment, which I think it is a good price. Anyone has tried those?

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Specia ... -Tyre/IOPC

The Roubaix 2bliss are even cheaper, but perhaps too big for some...

ugo.santalucia

The tape I used, widely available on Ebay at the time was Tesa 4289. It was the same tape sold at much higher price by Superstar Components. It was not as good as Stans for the reasons stated above

ddraver

thecycleclinic wrote:

7) stopping to top up with air- why would you even think about doing that

For avoidance of doubt I mean between rides, i.e between the Sunday club run and Wednesday chain gang for example...

I was away with no track pump (had to be cut from the bike bag to get it to airline weight). Loosing 20 psi between each ride was a right royal PITA!

bobones

There's a leak somewhere if you're losing that much.

ddraver

Sorry, but thats the experience of many of us on this thread with tubeless, road or otherwise. It's no problem if you have a track pump, and given that I would usually check pressures before a ride anyway it was never a problem....but in that niche situation...

Tubeless tyres leak air over a few days.

bobones

Yes, but 20 psi over a day or two is not normal IMO. There's either a small leak from the tape or the necessary sealant to for tubeless ready tyres has not been used. I sometimes spray my wheels with soapy water from a hand sprayer to check for leaks, but even if there are a few bubbles visible at the valve, the tyres don't lose air as quickly as you say.

Anyway, until next Tuesday, the Maxxis online shop has 23 mm Padrones @ £20 each, and 25 and 28 mm @ £25 including shipping.

paulmon

bobones wrote:

Yes, but 20 psi over a day or two is not normal IMO. There's either a small leak from the tape or the necessary sealant to for tubeless ready tyres has not been used. I sometimes spray my wheels with soapy water from a hand sprayer to check for leaks, but even if there are a few bubbles visible at the valve, the tyres don't lose air as quickly as you say.

Anyway, until next Tuesday, the Maxxis online shop has 23 mm Padrones @ £20 each, and 25 and 28 mm @ £25 including shipping.

Thanks for this. Didn't get the Padrones but got some XC tyres for the MTB.

ddraver

^^We're going to have to agree to disagree...

We're talking about metal leaking in one case....