Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

cycleclinic

not sure why we both have very different experiences with the same tape then ugo.

cycleclinic

My tyres hold air pretty well. There is only a leak generally if the is a puncture that is not fully sealed.

nachetetm

Hutchinson Fusion Performance 11 storm at 31€ each if purchased as a bundle:

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Hutchi ... undle/KJJ0

deadlegs

Malcolm, What's your blackfriday code? It disappeared on your website when I was about to pay and I can't get it to re-appear.

I'm finally taking the plunge with tubeless after months of following this thread!

staffo

Deadlegs wrote:

Malcolm, What's your blackfriday code?

Novembersale18

deadlegs

Cheers Staffo. Tyres and bits ordered.

paulmon

TimothyW wrote:

Yeah, caffelatex definitely leaves a bit of residue, but there is absolutely no need to clean it when topping up sealant - it'd take an hour (or more depending on how much of a struggle you then have reseating tire...) and achieve very little.

So I've given up on caffelatex. I had some spare time today so decided to check the state of the sealant in the wheels I use on my diverge. Surprise, surprise the caffelatex in one set had dried completely. Since Feb this year they have had 3 lots of sealant and each time the previous sealant has dried and stuck to the inside of the tyre. I decided to put the tyres on the scales and over 9 months each tyre has added just over 100g to its initial weight. This is on a tyre that weighed 530g to start with. At this rate by the end of next summer the tyres would be heavier than the high volume tyres on my 29er.

Which brings me nicely to my next point. I have a set of Stans 29er wheels with some lightweight XC Specialized tyres on them. I took them off my 29er in January this year but they had been used on and off for 6 months prior to that. They had lost air so I pumped them up and could hear fluid sloshing around in them so drove a nail through each tyre and amazingly it sealed. No prizes for guessing what sealant was in them.

The second set of rims on my Diverge had the Mavic sealant in them. One was dry and the other was still OK. I was able to wash and remove the sealant from the one that was dry in 5 minutes.

I'm going to give Orange Seal a try and file Caffelatex in the "More trouble than its worth drawer" along with the tyres. I fully expect the tyres on my road bike to be the same but I wont be riding that bike until next year so will cross that bridge when I come to it.


tldr: Caffelatex don't believe the hype.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

not sure why we both have very different experiences with the same tape then ugo.

The important point is that it is NOT the same tape as Stans... it's not even the same shade of yellow. It is not as thick and it is not as sticky.
Stan's is a lot more expensive, but it is a better tape

cycleclinic

Your blamming the sealant here but.... A tyre which weighs 530g is going to be a MTB XC tyre or big gravel tyre (it could be a marathon supreme I suppose anyway its big) . All of these tyres have porosity . None of them are truely air tight as they lack a lining. You will be adding a fair ammount each time. probably 80 ml to 100ml or something approach 2.0"

Refilling every 3 month is about right for effetto, thats fairly normal for a road tyre. normally an porous MTB tyre (conti's) seal up after a couple of weeks and sealant generally last well. Stans in such tyres last forever but the down side is you get stanimals and what it seals is fairly limited.

The weight gain is because the tyre have holes not because of the sealant, it actually doing it job. All sealants will absorb into those tyres on a fresh install and you will have to top up after the first week. what there is is no free lunch. The sealants which last longer are generally not as good at sealing. Oranage seal for the record recommend refilling every one to two month. There endurance sealant last longer but does not seal as well.

Orange seal will give the same problem. The solution use a less porous tyre rather than change the sealant.

cycleclinic

The colour is slightly different but it been a while since I have had a fresh roll os stans to compare but I have not found any difference in the stickiness of the the two tapes. I have used alot of stans, it worked well, I have used alot of Tesa 4289 and it works equally well.

Stans tape for the record is 0.14mm off the roll. Tesa 4289 is 0.144mm (claimed) measured at 0.14mm as I am not a metrologist. So they are the same thickness to me. I have not tested the adhesive force of both tapes but I have never had issues getting either to stick onto a clean/dry rim.

timothyw

I think it is actually desirable to have a 'thicker' sealant which drys quicker for a road tire, on the basis that road tires run at higher pressure (and have less air they can afford to lose in a flat).

You can fairly easily peel the excess sealant off if you are so inclined, but as I mentioned before, I suspect you'll realise life is too short!

I think the hype around caffelatex is because it actually does a half decent job sealing at road pressures.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Stans tape for the record is 0.14mm off the roll. Tesa 4289 is 0.144mm (claimed) measured at 0.14mm as I am not a metrologist. So they are the same thickness to me. I have not tested the adhesive force of both tapes but I have never had issues getting either to stick onto a clean/dry rim.

That's impossible. Two rolls of similar thickness have wildly different lengths, which can only mean one is thicker than the other.

I always needed 3 layers of the Tesa to get the tyre to seal, but 2 of Stans were always plenty.
0.14 mm doesn't sound right for Stans, is it something you measured yourself, or some internet wisdom? Electric tape is nearly 0.2 and a lot thinner than Stans

paulmon

thecycleclinic wrote:

Your blamming the sealant here but.... A tyre which weighs 530g is going to be a MTB XC tyre or big gravel tyre (it could be a marathon supreme I suppose anyway its big) . All of these tyres have porosity . None of them are truely air tight as they lack a lining. You will be adding a fair ammount each time. probably 80 ml to 100ml or something approach 2.0"

Refilling every 3 month is about right for effetto, thats fairly normal for a road tyre. normally an porous MTB tyre (conti's) seal up after a couple of weeks and sealant generally last well. Stans in such tyres last forever but the down side is you get stanimals and what it seals is fairly limited.

The weight gain is because the tyre have holes not because of the sealant, it actually doing it job. All sealants will absorb into those tyres on a fresh install and you will have to top up after the first week. what there is is no free lunch. The sealants which last longer are generally not as good at sealing. Oranage seal for the record recommend refilling every one to two month. There endurance sealant last longer but does not seal as well.

Orange seal will give the same problem. The solution use a less porous tyre rather than change the sealant.

I understand this Malcolm but my issue is:
1. Caffelatex appears to dry up much quicker than anything else which then requires me to check the tyres more often. Because I use less sealant in the Road/Gravel tyres you cant simply take the wheel off shake it and hear the fluid sloshing around so you have to part remove the tyre to check. If you dont check every week then you can be certain thats the week you will get a puncture.

2. Removing the dried sealant completley is pretty much impossible unless you are willing to spend hours doing it. The weight gain is from all the dried up sealant stuck to the tyre not the tiny amount that has soaked into it.

20181123_171531 by Paul Monaghan, on Flickr

20181123_171508 by Paul Monaghan, on Flickr


I've fitted new tyres to the MTB today and used Orange Seal so I'll check how much fluid I lose over the next couple of weeks. I've also put some Orange Seal in one of my Mavic gravel tyres so I'll do the same with that. I've ordered new tyres to replace the ones pictured above. When they arrive I'll stick some Orange Seal in and report back my findings.

P

tincaman

Condor Cycles have the HUTCHINSON FUSION 5 ALL SEASON 11 STORM for £25 each in 25mm and 28mm

cycleclinic

Ugo: I measured the thickness of stans my self. I use two layers of tesa tape to enable tyres to seal. There are some rims that need more but the same rims needed more with stans too.

What has the length of the tape got to do with the thickness?
This sentence make little sense the way I am reading it.

"That's impossible. Two rolls of similar thickness have wildly different lengths, which can only mean one is thicker than the other."

The two tapes have the same thickness and apply the same way on my vernier (its all I have). I have used them back to back on the same rims and there is no difference practically I can find.

Paulmon:

As I said selants that last longer tend not to seal as well. So you have that choice. The latex layer that you see is not what has added 100g. If you really have 100g of extra mass in the tyre it is in the tyre not on the inside surface. That means your tyres are quite porus. This is fairly normal for some gravel/MTB tyres.

You may also not be putting enough sealant in the tyre. for a 40mm tyre I would probably put 100ml in initally because the tyre will abosrb some of that. Compressed air used to inflate the tyre removes some more so you end up with enough after all that.

Checking tyres every week? No that wrong. You can get obbessed with "how much selant I have left". Dont get obessed with that. Top up every three months (maybe more frequently, it just depends). If you want to check use a thin zip tie or the pin test. Test once a month at most. Even a tyre with low selant levels tends not to flat. It may not seal that well but if thats the case just top up when you get home. I have a very relaxed approach to this because after alot of km on tubeless I have learnt you can worry to much. Tyre plugs are whats get me out of trouble. I dont rely on the sealant to deal with punctures so I care little about how much is actually there.

Also effetto like other sealants dries more quickly if you use compressed air to inflate the tyres. There is nothing that can be done to avoid this apart from using a sealant that seals less well.

You want a magic bullet that does not exist nor can it.

Here's another hint. I never check how much sealant is in my tyres. Never. When I get a small puncture that does not seal well or a pucnture that I cant find I simply add more sealant, as that normally solves it.

If you want a long lasting selant try Zefal or stans. The down side is they dont seal that well at road pressures.

Orange seal do three versions of there sealant. So if its std orange seal your going to be disapointed by its life span (it seals well).

zefs

thecycleclinic wrote:

Tyre plugs are whats get me out of trouble. I dont rely on the sealant to deal with punctures so I care little about how much is actually there.

I think a lot of people make this mistake initially, about sealant (along with using the lightest tubeless tires with no reinforcement) and then give up on tubeless. Maybe that's a mistake made from the people that pushed the technology, they made people think it's bulletproof if you use sealant and they didn't mention plugs at all.

Also user error, when people add sealant then use an air compressor/pump which makes it dry etc.
Add the fact that on some tire/wheel combos it's very hard to remove the tire and there's the reasons people give up on tubeless. When you purchase tubeless wheels and tires there should be clear instructions about how everything works.

cycleclinic

It should be hard to push if a tubeless tyre when seated. If it's too easy then you can't insert a plug without the tyre unseating then your a bit stuck.

It's not my fault tyre manufacturers don't explain tubeless tech.

Last night I noticed the rear Goodyear was loosing air during the day. Probably insufficient sealant, there must be a leak somewhere. So I put another 50ml in. I did not check the sealant level prior to this. Also problem solved. The first load of sealant probably dried up as the aileron rims I have in the commutor are a bit small and compressed was need to inflate the tyre. Between that drying out the sealant and the first sealant load sealing up the tyre I probably had little left over to deal with a few cuts that's have appeared. So that's the more relaxed attitude tubeless users need.

With tubeless if there is a air leakage and your confident about the taping and the valve just shove more sealant in. Please don't remove your tyre to check sealant levels.

Orange seal coats the tyre with latex too. It what all latex based sealants do

sloppyschleckonds

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/con ... gK3dvD_BwE

Continental 5000 s TL only in 25mm for £45

For those with deep pockets

ugo.santalucia

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/continental-grand-prix-5000-tl-folding-tyre-806820?currency=3&delivery_country=190&varid=806826&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI89K8lN353gIVywrTCh3xVA2iEAkYASABEgK3dvD_BwE

Continental 5000 s TL only in 25mm for £45

For those with deep pockets

Continental Wintercontact, also tubeless for very little more

https://alltyres365.co.uk/Tyre/car/wint ... nkEALw_wcB

sloppyschleckonds

Very fine pin hole puncture today wouldn't seal with sealant, got home with 20/30 psi and topped up sealant but still wouldn't seal. Effetto Mariposa Caffelatex Tyre Sealant on a Padrone tyre. Not impressed. Now wormed anyway but losing confidence in sealant.

cycleclinic

Some fresh sealant helps. Also sealant fixes problems often before you know you have them. You only notice when it does not seal. I cleared out my mudguards on the commutor last week. It was called in a sealant muck mix. Obviously I had punctured alot and never even knew.

When you get a puncture that does not seal inject more and it should seal. That's what I do and it always works.

cycleclinic

However you get charged £80 for fitting a set. I doubt many here could fit car tyres themselves.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

However you get charged £80 for fitting a set. I doubt many here could fit car tyres themselves.

Never paid to have car tyres fitted...

cycleclinic

it normally included in the price. If you buy online and take the tyres to the garrage you end up paying a fitting charge dubbed the twat tax, yes tyre fitters call it that that means the tyre end up being the same price as they would if you bought them of the garage.

Buying car tyres online makes no sense as you really cant fit them yourself unless your a tyre fitter.

mac678

Mavic Ksyirum Elite UST Review

I purchased a set of Ksyirum USTs in June following a shed load of research regarding the UST system. (The phrases bomb proof and never looked back featured in a lot of the reviews!)

The wheel set cost £425.99. from A-cycles the wheels arrived and I duly applied the provided sealant to both tyres.

The first week I went out for a long ride, during the ride I suffered a rear wheel puncture which dutifully sealed itself only using a few pounds, all good so far I thought

The following week I noticed the front wheel had lost alignment and was slightly buckled. I contacted Mavic warranty support, after four weeks of email wrangling with Mavic they agreed to repair the wheel with a new spoke.

Approximately one month later the repaired front wheel developed a leak at the rim/tyre interface which refused to seal. I purchased a new tyre £42 which initially seemed ok but then developed the same fault a week later. I contacted Mavic again, they gave very little assistance and suggested I had damaged the wheel, I examined the wheel and moved the tyre, the tyre leaked again from the same point. Frustrated and believing I had damaged the wheeI I gave in and purchased a new front wheel from Evans cycles £227

This wheel lasted a week before developing a similar leak at the rim, I purchased a second tyre £42 and managed approximately 200 miles before the same issue.

During all these actions I kept in regular contact with Mavic, their final solution was to use the Wheels with inner tubes and normal clinchers. Unfortunately this doesn’t work either which has cost two inner tubes @£8 to prove.

So far I have spent £744.99 on this system which admittedly has provided a bomb proof rear wheel and indeed I don’t need to look back. Unfortunately I cant say they same for the front.

Im not in any way over weight and have kept the wheels regularly maintained with the correct tyre pressures. I now have no faith in the UST system for road wheels and believe the higher pressure required mean that there is too much pressure at the tyre/rim interface causing it to fail.

I know this post is more about tyres than any thing else but anyone with similar problems/solutions?

drlodge

Couple of comments on your post mac:
- I've had issues with a tubeless tyre leaking at the rim, it happens, solution is to insert sealant then with the tyre horizontal you do the sealant dance to get it into the rim area. If you know where the tyre is leaking then you can target that area. It should seal as the gap will be small.
- what was the issue with inner tubes not working? Is the front rim profile the same as the rear? What pressure were you pumping the tyres to?

cycleclinic

Drlodge maybe right on the solution. Its one of these thing experience tells you how to sort. Having used Mavic UST and many more km than most here on tubeless road system your fear that the higher road pressures are cauing failure are unfounded. Leakage is possible if the rim dents. Sealant normally fills the gaps. Leakage can also be other things like the valve fittted loosly. normally like in reply to a post above I would shove more sealant in and see what happens after checking the valve. There maybe a rim fault of course. If it happened on a number of tyres I would be looking at the rim for dents and warranty real goes through the dealer that sold you the wheels.

Goodyear eagle tyre update. Approx 500km in and frankly don't bother. The tyres are not very comfortable for tubeless. This by itself is not a major issue. The tyres however are not robust. The rear has multiple cuts one of which is leaking. This is the second time it has happened. The front tyre had a big flint puncture but a 3.5mm Maxalami tyre plug fixed that so that's good. No problem there and it was a big bit of flint. This morning I noticed a big bulge, not good. Yes I have hit a few potholes but it the same holes that I have hit many times on Mavic UST and IRC tyres with no bulges. If the bulge alone was the only problem I would say bad luck. The multiple cuts in the rear tyre mean these will probably let me down. So that was another short test. Conti gp5000 tl 25mm tyres next.

Yes I am hard on tyres.

ugo.santalucia

I think your tyre has a growth... you need an MRI scan to check if it's malignant... if not, you can probably just file it off :-)

cycleclinic

It does look like that. If I had not put the bike in the stand to adjust the pad position on the spyres and clean out the rear mudguard again ( sealant gravel and mud mix again) I would not have even noticed the tumour and tonight or another day I would have heard a bang and then a brown tights moment. a plug would not have helped me much.

zefs

Mavic had advised me to not use the tire if it bulges but after going for a ride it didn't appear again. Mine happened after I deflated the tire.