Pacenti SL23 Volta 11s Hubs £169.99 now £149.99 Doh

rolf_f

thecycleclinic wrote:

quoted weights shoudl be realistic. 90g out is not good. Rim weights do vary but the pacenti SL23 is 445g average +/- 10g. That is 20g over weight at most. Hubs do not vary in weight unless the manufacturing QC is all all over the place. Spokes do not vary in weight period.

So the 1490g weight may have been based on weights of parts that had not been weighed then publisehed to lure buyers in. That does annoy me. When Shimano, Dede e.t.c. do it it annoys me too!

I recall you quoting a weight of about 1350g for a pair of Kinlin XR200s with Novatec hubs and Sapim Race spokes, 24,28. I made a set to that spec myself and the end result weighed 1350g........

passout

ugo.santalucia wrote:

londoncommuter wrote:

They explained that the 1,490g was a theoretical weight based on parts

Ridiculous...

Couldn't they just weigh the finished wheelset & avoid theory altogether? Would be much easier.

Haven't read all the other posts, but do these weights include skewers - I know some wheel weights don't.

ugo.santalucia

matt-h wrote:

What makes the pace ti so much better than an archetype?

Matt

Who said is much better than an Archetype?

SuperstarComponents.com

Hello all our weights are from the actual wheel which we have built. We pick a pair randomly and weigh it. We don't make up fudged estimates and only use a temporary calculated weight if we are still in the build process. If someone claims there is a discrepancy on our site we recheck and update if incorrect, but we cannot guarantee a specific weight for builds of 250 pairs of wheels like this!

The weight difference is the rimstrips which nobody in the industry includes. We don't know if you will use our chunkiy rimstrips or something else, so it's not included. Also the 28 hole version will obviously weigh a little more

On the note of accuracy of rim weight. Overtime rim extrusion tools wear so you can only quote +\- about 10%. Which is a huge difference.

If you have any specific questions please let me know, superstarcomponents

MisterMuncher

Hell's teeth. I got something right on the internet.

tincaman

I was very depressed after fitting Fortezza Tricomps to these, to the point where if I had a puncture out on the road, I wasn't sure I would be able to get the tyre off the rim for a repair.
However after all the advice on here about fitting Stans rim tape and working the bead back to the valve, its now do-able. In fact it has made a huge difference, _happy

super_davo

I can also recommend this set of levers.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/var-tyre-levers-prod27539/

I haven't changed the rim tape yet, though I think I will as it will give a few more mm to work with. However, still was able to get my 25mm Pro Race 4 Service course on in a couple of minutes using the VAR levers.

ugo.santalucia

tincaman wrote:

I was very depressed after fitting Fortezza Tricomps to these, to the point where if I had a puncture out on the road, I wasn't sure I would be able to get the tyre off the rim for a repair.
However after all the advice on here about fitting Stans rim tape and working the bead back to the valve, its now do-able. In fact it has made a huge difference, _happy

The problem is that you bought a tubeless rim and want to use it as a tyre + inner tube system. You can, but it's not ideal. Your best bet is to use the smallest possible inner tube combined with a tyre bigger than 23 mm. Alternatively, use it for what it is designed to do and get some tubeless tyres.

Unfortunately Superstar were not very informative in this respect... like most retailers, they just want to flog the goods without worrying about whether or not they are the right product for you. I tend to dissuade people from getting tubeless rims if they have no intention to run tubeless tyres

matt-h

ugo.santalucia wrote:

matt-h wrote:

What makes the pace ti so much better than an archetype?

Matt

Who said is much better than an Archetype?

the fact that people here are calling them a bargain.
The rim is nearly twice the price

Matt

ugo.santalucia

matt-h wrote:

the fact that people here are calling them a bargain.
The rim is nearly twice the price

Matt

Tubeless rims are more expensive, for some reason I can't quite grasp. I think there has been a problem with pricing of this rim, as 97 pounds was way over the top, compared too the SRP in the US, which is 109 USD. The newer SL 25 disc is an even better rim, yet somehow cheaper at 80 pounds per piece, while in the US is priced in line with the SL 23 at $ 109.

The Superstar price is obviously a bargain, but it's a machined built wheel, so not the same product you would buy from JRA or Strada. As I understand, the tolerance is somewhat sloppy... 0.4 total offset is a bit paltry for a high end rim... 0.2 mm is mainstream for these rims when built by hand and 0.1 is achievable on some rims

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

matt-h wrote:

the fact that people here are calling them a bargain.
The rim is nearly twice the price

Matt

Tubeless rims are more expensive, for some reason I can't quite grasp. I think there has been a problem with pricing of this rim, as 97 pounds was way over the top, compared too the SRP in the US, which is 109 USD. The newer SL 25 disc is an even better rim, yet somehow cheaper at 80 pounds per piece, while in the US is priced in line with the SL 23 at $ 109.

The Superstar price is obviously a bargain, but it's a machined built wheel, so not the same product you would buy from JRA or Strada. As I understand, the tolerance is somewhat sloppy... 0.4 total offset is a bit paltry for a high end rim... 0.2 mm is mainstream for these rims when built by hand and 0.1 is achievable on some rims

Admittedly, the tolerance of the superstar wheels will be out in comparison to a wheel builder - however, could you not pay a wheel builder to tension the wheel to a higher tolerance level?
That way the consumer still gets a "bargain" and the wheel builder receives custom. To add, I must say fair play to superstar components for posting in this thread.

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

Admittedly, the tolerance of the superstar wheels will be out in comparison to a wheel builder - however, could you not pay a wheel builder to tension the wheel to a higher tolerance level?
That way the consumer still gets a "bargain" and the wheel builder receives custom. To add, I must say fair play to superstar components for posting in this thread.

If you find a builder who is happy to do so, then yes. I would expect most true artisans to have left wing feelings rather than being reckless capitalism fanatics
Superstar can make money in many other ways than undercutting small businesses like JRA or Strada by offering the same components built at zero cost or less. It is competition and they play by the rules of the market, but you can't expect sympathy from the artisans, no?
I would expect the same expression you get when you take a bike bought online from China to your local shop because there is a potential crack...

But then again, maybe not...

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

letap73 wrote:

Admittedly, the tolerance of the superstar wheels will be out in comparison to a wheel builder - however, could you not pay a wheel builder to tension the wheel to a higher tolerance level?
That way the consumer still gets a "bargain" and the wheel builder receives custom. To add, I must say fair play to superstar components for posting in this thread.

If you find a builder who is happy to do so, then yes. I would expect most true artisans to have left wing feelings rather than being reckless capitalism fanatics
Superstar can make money in many other ways than undercutting small businesses like JRA or Strada by offering the same components built at zero cost or less. It is competition and they play by the rules of the market, but you can't expect sympathy from the artisans, no?
I would expect the same expression you get when you take a bike bought online from China to your local shop because there is a potential crack...

But then again, maybe not...

Fair enough, however, are Superstar and JRA or Strada competing for the same market? The obvious advantage that JRA and Strada have is that they can custom build which superstar obviously can't. I would imagine that Superstar are more likely competing with the purveyors of other factory built wheels.

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

Fair enough, however, are Superstar and JRA or Strada competing for the same market? The obvious advantage that JRA and Strada have is that they can custom build which superstar obviously can't. I would imagine that Superstar are more likely competing with the purveyors of other factory built wheels.

I would assume if Superstar sold their own branded rims at a budget, nobody would have a problem... but if they sell the Pacenti rims, then Joe average will think he's getting the same thing as he would get from JRA but half price, so bargain! And it many ways it is a bargain and in many ways it is also the same wheelset... so yes, they are competing for the same market, as JRA or Strada customers are not necessarily wealthier and snobbier than Superstar customers. Even bankers always try to get a deal and if they can pay less, then why should they pay more?

I am doing a lot of assumptions here... maybe they just don't give a toss :roll:

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

letap73 wrote:

Fair enough, however, are Superstar and JRA or Strada competing for the same market? The obvious advantage that JRA and Strada have is that they can custom build which superstar obviously can't. I would imagine that Superstar are more likely competing with the purveyors of other factory built wheels.

I would assume if Superstar sold their own branded rims at a budget, nobody would have a problem... but if they sell the Pacenti rims, then Joe average will think he's getting the same thing as he would get from JRA but half price, so bargain! And it many ways it is a bargain and in many ways it is also the same wheelset... so yes, they are competing for the same market, as JRA or Strada customers are not necessarily wealthier and snobbier than Superstar customers. Even bankers always try to get a deal and if they can pay less, then why should they pay more?

I am doing a lot of assumptions here... maybe they just don't give a toss :roll:

If you are right it would be a sad day if the likes of Strada/JRA disappeared, however, I would hope that there would be enough consumers that would appreciate the difference between the products offered. As you say the Pacenti offering from Superstar is not an ideal wheel set for all riders - difficulty in mounting tyres for me would be a big bug bear.

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

If you are right it would be a sad day if the likes of Strada/JRA disappeared

I'm not saying that. All I am saying is that they won't probably be sympathetic if someone walks in their shop hoping to get the wheels he bought for a tenner online perfected... As a matter of fact they probably don't touch any wheel they have not built themselves, so it's all academic

SuperstarComponents.com

Hello Superstar here. There seems to be alot of negativity about our inhouse builds with no actual facts or basis for this? Alot of it is just presumptions or people talking up other brands.

While i understand that people quite like the idea of handbuilt wheels with works like "skill" and "passion" being bandied around, you wouldn't want your car or plane parts made by someone on a manual lathe would you? Shock horror a machine which uses lasers to measure to microns is more accurate than someone doing it by eye.

Here are some facts:

1. Our Holland mechanics OT robot line is more consistent and accurate 24 hours a day than a team of the best wheelbuilders. It uses lasers to measure the runout...
2. Our max runout of 0.2mm is as good as it needs to be, as soon as you mount the tyre it will be out by more.
3. Handbuilders do not measure and retain the tension on every spoke in the wheel, then calculate what to do on every spoke turn, our machine does. Thats why it builds balanced tension straight wheels, everytime.
4. i was told by a well known wheelbuilder they had a pimp £1500 Pk Lie wheeljig which is why their wheels were such good quality, my reply "well ive got the other 2 in the UK, i only use them for repairing/truing wheels as the OT robot is more accurate in the real world"
5. we do QC tests on the pkLie jigs, and guess what the laser guided robot is perfect every time...

So why are we cheaper? We buy rims in HGV 40 foot lorry containers, we buy spokes several hundred thousand at a time, we build thousands of wheels a year. Need any other reasons, ive got plenty?

You want a custom build, use our custom builder which is expanding constantly with different stock. Apart form clearance deals we custom build to order practically everything else within a couple of hours of order. Unfortunately certain brands refuse to sell parts to us as they say we are "too competitive on price"

Any questions let me know, Superstar components

ugo.santalucia

NO negativity, but forum threads are for discussions... discussions involve all sorts of opinions

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

Here are some facts:
2. Our max runout of 0.2mm is as good as it needs to be, as soon as you mount the tyre it will be out by more.

You said it was + or - 0.2, which means 0.4 mm If you now say it is 0.2 mm (which is + or - 0.1 mm) then make up your mind, it is one or the other. The other is very acceptable, but I find strange someone would notice a 0.2 total offset at all (see above). An 0.4 mm is noticeable by eye. Didn't get the bit about the tyre... mounting a tyre makes no difference on the offset if the wheel has been properly destressed.

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

3. Handbuilders do not measure and retain the tension on every spoke in the wheel, then calculate what to do on every spoke turn, our machine does. Thats why it builds balanced tension straight wheels, every time.

They don't in your factory, clearly, which is a good reason to get a robot instead... reputable builders DO.

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

4. i was told by a well known wheelbuilder they had a pimp £1500 Pk Lie wheeljig which is why their wheels were such good quality, my reply "well ive got the other 2 in the UK, i only use them for repairing/truing wheels as the OT robot is more accurate in the real world"

You don't need a 15 hundred quid machine to build a wheel with a total 0.2 mm offset... it's a vanity purchase, it is not necessary. I have built wheels with that quality with a 15 quid jig years ago... then vanity took over and bought a 400 quid one. Luckily I then realised I didn't need to upgrade to a 15 hundred quid one... these days I am very skeptical...

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

5. we do QC tests on the pkLie jigs, and guess what the laser guided robot is perfect every time...

0.4 mm total offset is not perfect... is below average

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

So why are we cheaper? We buy rims in HGV 40 foot lorry containers, we buy spokes several hundred thousand at a time, we build thousands of wheels a year. Need any other reasons, ive got plenty?

Don't really need other reasons, it is pretty obvious why Superstar is cheaper.... big numbers cut cost, everybody knows that in 2014.

SuperstarComponents.com

I see you cannot find any positives, how about you pop down sometime to the factory and i will prove to you we are up there with the best builders in the world. Hey rubbish manufacturers (sarcasm) like Enve wheels have just ordered the same machine to build their wheels on .

I think you are missing the point, we build thousands of wheels a year. Therefore we need the ability to build them on time, to the right quality level every single time. Humans just aren't consistent enough in quality (and we would need quite a few of them to hit demand). Nothing about vanity in it, we just need the best equipment in the world to be the best in the business.

All this talk about tolerances, please bear in mind that is the maximum allowable runout before it rejects the wheel as faulty. Its not the average runout, the quality of the rim also dictates whats physically possible.

You seem to be strongly hinting that our price and quality is both low, heres a question - Have you got some superstar wheels, or actually know anything about our build process or QC? Or is this all based on presumption?

Regards, Superstar

ugo.santalucia

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

I see you cannot find any positives, how about you pop down sometime to the factory and i will prove to you we are up there with the best builders in the world. Hey rubbish manufacturers (sarcasm) like Enve wheels have just ordered the same machine to build their wheels on .

I think you are missing the point, we build thousands of wheels a year. Therefore we need the ability to build them on time, to the right quality level every single time. Humans just aren't consistent enough in quality (and we would need quite a few of them to hit demand). Nothing about vanity in it, we just need the best equipment in the world to be the best in the business.

All this talk about tolerances, please bear in mind that is the maximum allowable runout before it rejects the wheel as faulty. Its not the average runout, the quality of the rim also dictates whats physically possible.

You seem to be strongly hinting that our price and quality is both low, heres a question - Have you got some superstar wheels, or actually know anything about our build process or QC? Or is this all based on presumption?

Regards, Superstar

You are being unnecessarily confrontational. I am not here to find positives or negatives... I am here to challenge statements if I think they are not accurate.
I frankly don't care whether your wheels are perfect or not... whether your robot is better than a human being or it's not, but I am pedantic when it comes to things that get written on this forum and I like them to be correct... if they are not, I challenge them, other people do the same with me all the time, get used to it... it's positive and improves the standard of the web. So if you say + or - 0.2 as you said previously... it is important people realise it is a total offset of 0.4 and NOT 0.2 mm. That is the maximum you allow before it gets rejected, I get that... Strada will allow something in the range of 0.1 mm as maximum tolerable, that's their guarantee. So you can say that your Holland robot is better than a human, but these numbers indicate the opposite. :roll:

You use a robot because your business works better with a robot rather than a costly bunch of builders that come and go, need training, lack consistency and might even take days off!!... NOT because the robot is intrinsically better than a human, as proved by the above

SuperstarComponents.com

Hello again our wheels are built with several human staff, we just put them in parts of the process they are good at, such as assembly and QC. Its purely about guaranteeing quality, which is another reason why we do it all inhouse in Lincoln UK.

You can quote that your wheels are 0.1, 0.01 or whatever you want but at a point being straighter is pointless. as soon as you put a tyre on a wheel it will go our especially if the tension consistency has been compromised to make the wheel "straighter" bear in mind we are talking about 200 microns here, or thinner than the sticker on your rim!

I feel that you are just trying to find any possible detail to be confrontational, im just answering your questions. You made a big fuss of posting several times claiming that we "disappeared" when we weren't aware of your claims, which you interpreted to mean we did something wrong? If you look back through the things you have criticized us for, there isnt many other things left??? All of this based on.... well nothing by the sounds of it.

To answer the question. The runout is 0.2mm RMS to be completely pedantic. Plus you need to bear in mind included in that is a tolerance of 0.2mm on centreline. Actual runout is normally around 0.1mm on 95% of the rim. you must have a bit of a limitation for where joins are as they are impossible to get truely accurate with a consistent tension, to get it "totally straight" is just a fudge of the tensions. The tensions are specific to each wheel and side, all measured by a direct drive servo every time it touches a nipple.

Anyway im off home now in my car which was built by robots because they are accurate, consistent and obviously a better way of making something than doing it by hand....

Regards, Superstar

ugo.santalucia

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

You can quote that your wheels are 0.1, 0.01 or whatever you want

I didn't say mine... I said Strada's... it's 0.1... neither 0.01 nor whatever... it is 0.1

Anyway, it's all nice and good because thanks to me giving you a bit of stick, you got down from your altar and gave up boasting how amazing you and your business are, which is all good news for your customers... knowing some real numbers (for once consistent over two consecutive statements) rather than some hollow declarations of greatness can only work in your favour... you will gain sympathy, as nobody likes megalomania... so really, if anything you should thank me for challenging your statements... but I won't get offended if you don't 8)

SuperstarComponents.com

I confused at why you feel its needed to be pedantic?

I have answered all your questions and once you have actually tried our product your opinion might be useful to other people.

If anyone else has any questions i am more than happy to answer them.

Regards, Superstar Components.

ugo.santalucia

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

I confused at why you feel its needed to be pedantic?

I have answered all your questions and once you have actually tried our product your opinion might be useful to other people.

It is important to be accurate. If you put some numbers on the table (and you did) then they need to be put into context.

I politely decline to try your product, no offence but I can build my own wheels and I like to choose my own components. I have tried your tubeless rim tape: I think it needs improvement... it tends to bubble during the fit and the bubbles are hard to remove... if not perfectly removed they crack and if they crack over a hole that's the end of the ride. The Stans seems to be more elastic, it doesn't bubble and consequently it doesn't crack

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

SuperstarComponents.com wrote:

You can quote that your wheels are 0.1, 0.01 or whatever you want

I didn't say mine... I said Strada's... it's 0.1... neither 0.01 nor whatever... it is 0.1

Anyway, it's all nice and good because thanks to me giving you a bit of stick, you got down from your altar and gave up boasting how amazing you and your business are, which is all good news for your customers... knowing some real numbers (for once consistent over two consecutive statements) rather than some hollow declarations of greatness can only work in your favour... you will gain sympathy, as nobody likes megalomania... so really, if anything you should thank me for challenging your statements... but I won't get offended if you don't 8)

Anyone get the irony in this?

6wheels

Just a little bit,give a man a few stripes...

I'm surprised that the senior mods/admin let this carry on,nitpicking on what is a very good deal.

gabriel959

I disagree with the whole built by machine is better than built by humans. The machines will be cheaper to run, more consistent and deliver, probably, a better product than a few dozen people that you need to train etc. In the end I am happy to admit that I was tempted to buy them but the fact that they are a tubeless rim deterred me.

ugo.santalucia

6wheels wrote:

Just a little bit,give a man a few stripes...

I'm surprised that the senior mods/admin let this carry on,nitpicking on what is a very good deal.

Senior Moderator in web rant shocker! :shock:

MisterMuncher

Can't the two coexist, though? Surely Superstar (or planet X for that matter) wheels are hitting a slightly different marketplace to yer artisan builder, albeit with some overlap? Personally I fancied a set of lightish, low spoke, wide rim wheels and these fit the bill for pretty decent money. Having the tubeless option probably clinched it. In time I may want to get a nicer set on my preferred hubs, which I'll go to my usual fella for, or try to build myself. Not saying Superstar can't make more expensive wheels or anything, I'm just happier having it fine by someone I can talk to face to face who can guide me better than a flurry of email.

Surely it's a good thing to have the like of this competing with the ubiquitous Mavic/Fulcrum/Shimano factory wheels at this price point? Once it's clear that you can get wheels which are more than competitive on price made from mostly generic parts that are easily obtained, factory spares will have to become more available and less idiotically priced to compete.

If Mr Superstar is still about, any chance of posting spoke lengtha and bearing sizes for these wheels? I appreciate these are items are sold by yourselves, but when a spoke or bearing goes, I'd prefer to be able to get replacements locally.

OfficerDigby

The real problem is that they are currently £199 not £169.99 let aloe £149.99!