And now Max Iglinskiy done for EPO

joelsim

His values reek of manipulation throughout the years in question. Ret levels from 0.88 to 1.6, spikes in Hct and Haemoglobin at times it should have been decreasing. His team are trying to argue technicalities as mentioned. We will see what the outcome is in due course, and I suspect that other riders will be worrying about what happens and how this relates to their values over the past few years.

Unless they were pretty sure the UCI wouldn't risk the whole passport future on this.

Let's let the experts decide

frenchfighter

I have read more of the documents and I hope you lot have too.

It turns out that this medication has a significant and demonstrable affect on his values. No surprise to me.

He has written proof that this is a legit problem for him, runs in his family and he has been taking medication since 2004. No surprise to me.

The doping authorities were not aware of the severity of this problem at the time of their decision and are unaware of its affect on his values. No surprise to me.

Fair few samples were handled incorrectly and the doping authorities were not aware of this at the time of their descion. No surprise to me.

So looks like doping authorities are onto a loser. Hopefully they don't cost him his job.

This one sums it up if you dont want to read the expert opinions:
http://kreuziger.a1.esports.cz/wp-conte ... letter.pdf

frenchfighter

Joelsim wrote:

Yes, probably

Given that you believe the minority of riders are clean, I cannot take anything you say seriously and none of my posts are really to debate with you. Just fyi.

blazing_saddles

frenchfighter wrote:

What numbers are flagged by you?

Why are those numbers 99% certainty of doping?

Do they account for the medication he took?

Does his subsequent performance in that Giro look like a doped rider to you? How about his other performances?

Did anyone mention once that Kreuziger looked like he was on the dope during that Giro or other GTs?

Slow day at the office?

Tinkoff comment on Kreuziger:
https://twitter.com/olegtinkov

Why? Cross correlation of his results.

This paper shows that treating hypothyroidism normalizes the retic from a low value rather than raising it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992186/

Note his results the stage before his win in the 2012 Giro

The third stage race which falls within the UCI’s period of concern is the 2012 Giro d’Italia [May 5 – 22]. He did a pre-race test on May 3, then others on May 14 [stage 9], May 20 [stage 15] and May 24 [stage 18].

His haematocrit levels were 45.1, 43.2, 44.8 and 48.1 respectively, while his reticulocyte levels were 1.45, 1.44, 1.52 and 1.4.

lostboysaint

frenchfighter wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Yes, probably

Given that you believe the minority of riders are clean, I cannot take anything you say seriously and none of my posts are really to debate with you. Just fyi.

So that's a bit like your belief that any riders that you like are clean then?

joelsim

frenchfighter wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Yes, probably

Given that you believe the minority of riders are clean, I cannot take anything you say seriously and none of my posts are really to debate with you. Just fyi.

Yes you're right as ever.

frenchfighter

Blazing Saddles wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

What numbers are flagged by you?

Why are those numbers 99% certainty of doping?

Do they account for the medication he took?

Does his subsequent performance in that Giro look like a doped rider to you? How about his other performances?

Did anyone mention once that Kreuziger looked like he was on the dope during that Giro or other GTs?

Slow day at the office?

Tinkoff comment on Kreuziger:
https://twitter.com/olegtinkov

Why? Cross correlation of his results.

This paper shows that treating hypothyroidism normalizes the retic from a low value rather than raising it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992186/

Note his results the stage before his win in the 2012 Giro

The third stage race which falls within the UCI’s period of concern is the 2012 Giro d’Italia [May 5 – 22]. He did a pre-race test on May 3, then others on May 14 [stage 9], May 20 [stage 15] and May 24 [stage 18].

His haematocrit levels were 45.1, 43.2, 44.8 and 48.1 respectively, while his reticulocyte levels were 1.45, 1.44, 1.52 and 1.4.

Yes it is a slow day at the office. I am still printing cash though. Does it matter if it is fast or slow?

So you quote one paper and base your presumption of guilt on that?

Looked on the twitter and cannot see Tinkoff shooting Kreuziger down?

Do you think his performances were those of a doped rider?

See my subsequent post as well.

ddraver

I would expect a monsoon of GT riders suddenly revealing that they ve got Thyroid problems if the medication can increase HCT so markedly...

shinyhelmut

ddraver wrote:

I would expect a monsoon of GT riders suddenly revealing that they ve got Thyroid problems if the medication can increase HCT so markedly...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html

frenchfighter

ShinyHelmut wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I would expect a monsoon of GT riders suddenly revealing that they ve got Thyroid problems if the medication can increase HCT so markedly...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html

It is entirely possible that the drug used to treat the problem causes performance benefits. It wouldn't really surprise me overly much - I think a lot of exemptions are dubious (Froome's for one).

However if that was the case the UCI should ban it and therefore you cannot ride if you take it, or you are allowed very small doses.

This is not the case at the moment so is irrelevant to convicting him.

What is relevant however is that the drug could easily produce different results in a rider compared to a rider not taking it and thus you cannot judge a rider's values who takes it within the structure of analysis applicable for every other rider.

ddraver

ShinyHelmut wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I would expect a monsoon of GT riders suddenly revealing that they ve got Thyroid problems if the medication can increase HCT so markedly...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html

For once cycling is BEHIND the "doping" curve....

blazing_saddles

frenchfighter wrote:

Looked on the twitter and cannot see Tinkoff shooting Kreuziger down?

You must have missed it:

La web de Roman Kreuziger dónde intenta demostrar su inocencia http://www.dorsal51.com/?p=18540 @olegtinkov ” God save him!

After reading the defence he posts "God save him". Sound promising to you?

joelsim

Blazing Saddles wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Looked on the twitter and cannot see Tinkoff shooting Kreuziger down?

You must have missed it:

La web de Roman Kreuziger dónde intenta demostrar su inocencia http://www.dorsal51.com/?p=18540 @olegtinkov ” God save him!

After reading the defence he posts "God save him". Sound promising to you?

Going back to the evidence.
1) Connections with Michele
2) Dodgy values in lots (and lots and lots) of different areas
3) Legal team trying to get him off on a technicality
4) God save him!
5) UCI appealing and not likely to jeopardise the blood passport
6) Independent experts suggesting figures look very odd
7) Another interesting excuse, rather like steak or contaminated prescriptions

If he gets off I will be amazed...having said that Impey and Rogers have managed to weedle their way out of obvious doping cases.

frenchfighter

I saw that. I could not understand how your comment could be drawn from those three words. You are completely wrong on that one.

lostboysaint

frenchfighter wrote:

I saw that. I could not understand how your comment could be drawn from those three words. You are completely wrong on that one.

In your not so humble opinion.

So you think "god save him" is a request the almighty?

frenchfighter

Anyone that wants to shoot him down just read this:
http://kreuziger.a1.esports.cz/wp-conte ... Report.pdf

I have read all of it. Everything is comprehensively shown to be normal.

Go by experts rather than those 'personalities' on twitter and forums that have developed themselves into the go to guys for this sort of things, cherry picking various pieces of information, creating fancy graphs and generally being loud. Noise. Ulterior motives.

There is a ton to support him in the document I linked to but let me point out one thing in particular as the majority on here and elsewhere are hanging on this point. Suggestion that a rise at the end of the Giro 2012 means he is doping. Page 48 onwards. Test of 200 riders in 2010 and 2012. 70% showed a variation that exceeded the theoretical variability and a haemoglobin increase.

This whole passport system is flawed.

If you want to convict him based on the doping authorities thought processes then I would love to trade against you. I would just collect cash day in day out.

joelsim

I'll have a red FF. Just one thing before I read it thoroughly, how is the Rct level in periods 2 to 8 explained when compared with the rest of the year? (P.14)

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

Anyone that wants to shoot him down just read this:
http://kreuziger.a1.esports.cz/wp-conte ... Report.pdf

I have read all of it. Everything is comprehensively shown to be normal.

Of course it does. It's a report commisioned by his defence lawyers. They'd be pretty crap lawyers if it said he was guilty.

frenchfighter

Obviously. Does that mean you discount everything in it? Obviously not.

You use your brain and look at both arguments then form your opinion. It is pretty simple.

frenchfighter

Joelsim wrote:

I'll have a red FF. Just one thing before I read it thoroughly, how is the Rct level in periods 2 to 8 explained when compared with the rest of the year? (P.14)

In short: L-Thyroxine supplementation changes.

EKIMIKE

frenchfighter wrote:

Obviously. Does that mean you discount everything in it? Obviously not.

You use your brain and look at both arguments then form your opinion. It is pretty simple.

Is the UCI's legal argument even publicly available?

frenchfighter

UCI letters: http://kreuziger.a1.esports.cz/documents/
Last document in the file

EKIMIKE

Nice, cheers.

bompington

frenchfighter wrote:

Obviously. Does that mean you discount everything in it? Obviously not.

You use your brain and look at both arguments then come down in favour of the rider with the most panache. It is pretty simple.

FTFY

lostboysaint

Like

blazing_saddles

The hyperthyroidism gambit debunked, here:
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/12/kreuz ... ping-case/

“I don’t really see that argument being very compelling because the study that his experts pointed to, they are talking about a change in reticulocyte count in terms of treating hypothyroidism. However that’s going from complete lack of thyroid function to being fully treated.

“In that study, you just see the subjects going from a low reticulocyte count to a normal one, so it is just normalizing the reticulocyte count.

“In Kreuziger’s case, what you are doing is going from a normal value to a very elevated one, and a persistently elevated one."

“In that case, I don’t find the thyroid issue very convincing. It can certainly have effects on the biological parameters, but I don’t find it is the explanation for his reticulocyte count.”

That may suffice for his fans, but others who study his haematocrit and reticulocyte levels may come away with more questions than answers.

joelsim

It's a case of being innocent until proven guilty. And then being wrongly convicted when banned for FF, despite bucketloads of evidence that suggests it is not normal. But heh!

frenchfighter

^It is just his opinion, nothing more.

EKIMIKE

My opinion is that it doesn't look so great for Kreuziger. It's difficult without having proper, clear presentation of the facts, expert evidence etc. However the signs don't look good.

iainf72

Frenchie, you would've loved the Landis case back in the day.