Tour de France Stage 5 Ypres-Arenberg *Spoiler*
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Anyway, heritage and hard cheese is the message from Prudhomme:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riders- ... -prudhomme"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
The arguments for/against the inclusion of "the cobbles" is getting too bogged down in the "what ifs" that didn't happen and the "s'not fair"s that did.
The Tour has a commitment to honour France (and it's neighbours) via the roads of its route: the cobbles represent a strong link with the heritage of that region (both sporting and sociopolitical), so they're compelled to include them from time to time.
So they did.
And it was great.
Voilá!0 -
"The trouble with cobbles in a GC race is that the stage DOES NOT become a classics type race - at least not until the damage is often done. In P-R/RVV etc the riders are usually sperarted in to much much smaller groups, and the vast majority of the starting field is already happily back at the hotel before the real action starts by virtue of the fact that once their part of the race is done there is no benefit to carrying on. 2014 P-R was contested by 2 or 3 groups of about 10 riders"
The similarity between yesterday's stage and a cobbled classic is of course the cobbles. But the massive difference between the two is the distance and the amount of sectors. The distance and amount of cobbles has a much greater effect on riders dropping out than the presence of just a few sectors. It isn't just because it is a GT that nearly everyone manages to finish a cobbled stage but it's because it is a great deal shorter too. PR and yesterday's stage aren't particularly comparable really:
"The trouble with cobbles in a GC race is that the stage DOES NOT become a classics type race",
well no, of course not, it was only half the distance. A classic is a classic for much more than the presence of cobbles. And of course there's no way they could slot in a real length PR stage, that really would be carnage. But then they didn't, what it was was a GT style cobbled stage, shorter and not as severe, not a classic inserted into a GT.
The argument seems to be where the line lies between acceptable spectacle and too much carnage. It seems to me rather than being black and white: no cobbles vs a stage like yesterdays that in fact most here are just either side of that line.
Most, who think it should be included, wouldn't want it to be a lot more severe than it was whereas those who think there is no place for it would not want opportunities for the toughest in the sport to show their stuff removed altogether. That line is arbitrary really and we don't all agree where it should be but I think they are closer together then many seem to want to admit. The argument of no cobbles vs some doesn't seem to describe it properly. Would 3 sectors be enough or 12 too many? None at all, never, seems too extreme to me and not an argument that can actually be backed up beyond saying "I didn't like what transpired yesterday so there shouldn't be any cobbles at all".0 -
^^Glad to see old Chrissy Prud agreeing!0
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TakeTheHighRoad wrote:There will be some epic pictures tonight.
For one thing, NIbs maillot jaune will be mud speckedfrenchfighter wrote:
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ThomThom wrote:UncleMonty wrote:If contador is still anywhere near his early season form then Nibali's two and a half minuets isn't going to be enough, he doesn't even need a crushing stage win, with so many MTF's he just needs to take 30 seconds here 40 second there.
Auch, I think that's easier said than done. We don't see these margins that often anymore. I think the 2:30 down to Contador is somewhat perfect and bodes well for the upcoming stages.
how much did Nibali lose to Froome/Contador in the stage where he got dropped by them both in the Dauphine?0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Anyway, heritage and hard cheese is the message from Prudhomme:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riders- ... -prudhomme
Prudhomme putting the bedwetters in their place.0 -
adr82 wrote:http://inrng.com/2014/07/tour-de-france-stage-5-wrap/It’s the first time since Bernard Hinault in 1980 that a defending champion quits the Tour.
Am I right in thinking that officialy, records book speaking, Miguel Indurain is the last person to 'defend'* a Tour title?
*I'm with Brailsford on this one, in that you don't defend, you try and win again, but it was the best word in the circumstances0 -
ddraver wrote:So, time to answer Pross. I'm gong to do something rare on the internet and not come down 100% in favour of either side. Some of you may be confused by this, I suggest you skip past this one.
First I ll explain, with half an eye on the Football, what I think a GC race should be. I think that the race over 3 weeks should allow any rider with required strength the opportunity to win without requiring a dominant team or a massive slice of luck. For this reason I think TTTs have no place in a GC race as a wily rider on a rubbish team has no chance at all to affect how the race is won. He will lose time regardless.
The trouble with cobbles in a GC race is that the stage DOES NOT become a classics type race - at least not until the damage is often done. In P-R/RVV etc the riders are usually sperarted in to much much smaller groups, and the vast majority of the starting field is already happily back at the hotel before the real action starts by virtue of the fact that once their part of the race is done there is no benefit to carrying on. 2014 P-R was contested by 2 or 3 groups of about 10 riders
Now in a standard GC race this doesnt happen because of things like elimination times everyone - all 190 odd riders (minus a small break of maybe 6 or 7) has to race - and race at the front. This results in the riders that are genuinely going for the stage or the GC race having to contend with a hell of a lot more people around them than usual. This means that staying rubberside down is as much about the random person in front of you (who is as likely to be a Dutch Classics Superstar as a terrified neo-pro riding for OGE or featherweight basque climber) than youre own strength or bike handling skills.
If Haussler (was it?) had gone down at a slightly different angle then superstar bike handler Nibbles would have gone over the bars into a concrete wall and be in the bed next to Froome in Roubaix Hospital tonight. The race then is not a function of skill or strength but purely one of luck.
This appears to need repeating but this situation applies as much to the carnage before the cobbles as the cobbles themselves. As we know, usually on the cobbles the race lines out and, ironically, becomes a lot less risky in terms of crashes (unless you hit a spectator)
That is my concern about cobbles in a GC race. I do not agree that wet roads or descents are similar here as 99% of the time the GC race tends to get effectively neutralised on those places anyway (hence the reason the autobus can get back on. before the stage I was thinking that what the Organisers could do is to say before the stage that the time limit will be significantly increased so that riders who are not bothered by GC can get the hell out of the way as soon as the race for the cobbles starts (effectively they would be in another autobus). That would make it much more of a classics race for GC guys and Specialists rather than the lottery these stages are today.
A good example of how fortunes are on a knife edge.
A bad example for a reason to exclude the cobbles, since it happened on a roundabout.
Those talking against cobbles in a GT race are using examples of rider safety to make a case, when, I suspect, their real issue is with it's unpredictable, perhaps excessive? effect on the GC.
They need to come down on the side of one or the other, not both.
Addressing the rider safety issue firstly.
Without the pave yesterday, we would have got a flat race across much of the same route to a sprint finish.
ALL the major spills would likely still have occurred. The less crash strewn riding over the cobbles would have been replaced with a bun fight for position inside the last 10-15kms, over those slick roads, with more roundabouts, street furniture etc.
Safer? I shudder to think what might of happened in those circumstances.
On the classification issue. Yesterday was design to be a GC stage, but the weather may have inflated it's impact, true. There is a possible arguement therefore against their inclusion. A similar arguement can be made for the exclusion of lengthy TTTs, due to their impact upon "climbing teams".
Of course, the counter arguement to excluding time trials is it's spectacle. In terms of spectacle, what we got yesterday surpassed any TTT."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Cool Pruddy. I look forward to the 350km stages, 4am starts, settling the race with a points system rather than time. All these are part of the Tours heritage too. :PFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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RichN95 wrote:
Sensible opinions usually are.ThomThom wrote:adr82 wrote:http://inrng.com/2014/07/tour-de-france-stage-5-wrap/It’s the first time since Bernard Hinault in 1980 that a defending champion quits the Tour. If you’re a fan then it’s a sad moment and if you can’t stand the sight of him then you should be sad too because you won’t see your preferred rider challenge and perhaps beat him either. For neutrals it means the Alberto Contador duel’s over and we lose a GC contender.
Now that's an expert analysis right there ...
Do I dare say Inrng has become.. slightly.. dull?
INRNG is pretty widely respected though. I think its a great read.0 -
ddraver wrote:The trouble with cobbles in a GC race is that the stage DOES NOT become a classics type race - at least not until the damage is often done. In P-R/RVV etc the riders are usually sperarted in to much much smaller groups, and the vast majority of the starting field is already happily back at the hotel before the real action starts by virtue of the fact that once their part of the race is done there is no benefit to carrying on. 2014 P-R was contested by 2 or 3 groups of about 10 riders
Surely in P-R the whole field is still in the race at the point they hit the first sector of cobbles? So hitting the first sector of cobbles in a GT context is just the same. Thereafter the race splits up, both in P-R and in a GT cobbled stage. In P-R 2014 144 riders finished the race (188 starters) with last group at 27:46, the first 50 riders were in groups of no more than 10. Yesterday 193 riders finished (194 starters) with last group at 32:52, the first 50 riders were in groups of no more than 10.
So to say that the two scenarios are massively different, with "the vast majority of the starting field is already happily back at the hotel" at P-R, does not bear up to scrutiny IMHO.0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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iainf72 wrote:Cool Pruddy. I look forward to the 350km stages, 4am starts, settling the race with a points system rather than time. All these are part of the Tours heritage too. :P
You'll be looking forward every day when you have to wait for tomorrow's paper to find out what happened yesterday..0 -
Crozza wrote:ThomThom wrote:UncleMonty wrote:If contador is still anywhere near his early season form then Nibali's two and a half minuets isn't going to be enough, he doesn't even need a crushing stage win, with so many MTF's he just needs to take 30 seconds here 40 second there.
Auch, I think that's easier said than done. We don't see these margins that often anymore. I think the 2:30 down to Contador is somewhat perfect and bodes well for the upcoming stages.
how much did Nibali lose to Froome/Contador in the stage where he got dropped by them both in the Dauphine?
Don't think thats as relevant as before, Nibali used the Race as training allegedly (after his letter from Vino) whereas Froome/ Contador raced. Nibbles is in good form but then again he's changed from the rider that came 3rd in the tour in 2012, he's a better time trialist, and a similar level of climber to what he was before. I beleive when he can be motivated, he is the most improved of the GC contendors.
Thats not to say that i don't think Contador may well win this, but i'd prefer Lo Squalo.0 -
Part of Nibali's "luck" in avoiding fallen riders was surely due to him riding metal rims. Certainly when his own team mate went down on a corner in front of him he only just stopped in time I reckon trying to stop on wet carbon would have seen him hit the rider and go down himself.
If we get a better stage than that during this race I'll be very happy.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Going to be a long couple of weeks for a relatively weak Astana squad when Saxo start throwing boys up the road every five minutes for day after day. They are lucky sky don't have a realistic GC hope as well.0
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OCDuPalais wrote:iainf72 wrote:Cool Pruddy. I look forward to the 350km stages, 4am starts, settling the race with a points system rather than time. All these are part of the Tours heritage too. :P
You'll be looking forward every day when you have to wait for tomorrow's paper to find out what happened yesterday..
Indeed. This is why I think his argument is BS. We have flat stages every year. We have mountains each year. TT's each year. If you want cobbles, put 'em in every year.
I enjoyed the stage a lot.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Are Saxo going up the road though? They've looked pretty weak recently (in the UK stages) or are they saving energy?0
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Something that's been touched upon was whether or not the crashes on the tarmac were or were not related to it being a cobbled stage.
I've heard a few opinions on this and I'm sure others have too. Nikki Terpstra told Eurosport that the peloton was riding atypically in the first 80km precisely because the cobbles were coming up. He said the peloton was nervous, and when the rain and wind were factored in, crashes were inevitable. He said that had it been a normal flat stage (like today perhaps) there would have been less tension, positioning would have been less important (and I'd suggest the pace would have been slower too seeing as they ease up as soon as an acceptable break gets away). So in his opinion, Froome's crash (and the others that occured on the tarmac) were directly related to it being a cobbled stage. Secondly, I heard it said that the softer tyre choice for the 14km of cobbles might have made it harder to ride the 140km of road, especially in the wet. I'm sure I heard a comment that it was easier to ride on the cobbles than the flat.0 -
mulletmaster wrote:Going to be a long couple of weeks for a relatively weak Astana squad when Saxo start throwing boys up the road every five minutes for day after day. They are lucky sky don't have a realistic GC hope as well.
Astana looked shockingly weak compared to Saxo yesterday, didn't they?
Seriously, I do wonder if people who comment on it actually watch the race sometimes.0 -
andyp wrote:mulletmaster wrote:Going to be a long couple of weeks for a relatively weak Astana squad when Saxo start throwing boys up the road every five minutes for day after day. They are lucky sky don't have a realistic GC hope as well.
Astana looked shockingly weak compared to Saxo yesterday, didn't they?
Seriously, I do wonder if people who comment on it actually watch the race sometimes.
And unless they're a GC threat (Rogers & Roche already 13m down, Majka 51m) they'd have no real need to chase random TS domestiques anyway - this is where the loss of Kreuziger is hefty. Nibali just needs to keep a firm eye on Contador and follow him where he can.0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:Part of Nibali's "luck" in avoiding fallen riders was surely due to him riding metal rims. Certainly when his own team mate went down on a corner in front of him he only just stopped in time I reckon trying to stop on wet carbon would have seen him hit the rider and go down himself.
eh? in all the photos I've seen he is using Corima Viva (carbon) tubs0 -
Also, perhaps it needs a 'Tour' way of riding cobbles as opposed to a 1 day classic. Maybe SKY should have taken it upon themselves to drill the peloton at 30mph from the off to string everyone out to keep CF protected, rather than allowing them all to hit section 1 as a bunch?0
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Nibs on the pave – wow
Sagan’s consistency so far – wow
Tour generally not being formulaic so far - wow
TMR’s sexist comments (it’s ok, it’s not swearing) – wow
Overall, this is much more interesting than prologue, flat, flat, flat, climb, TT, Flat, Flat, Climb, Climb, TT , Champs Elysee. I agree with le grand fromage that the best tour riders should be ones riding tours, not just summit finishes and TT's.0 -
One swallow doesn't make a summer. They performed well on a freak gimmick flat stage. Wait until the mountains to see how many sky blues are on the front and how many are in the autobus. I have to admit though I hadn't realised all of AC's lts were so far off the pace. They still have to contend with talansky and who knows maybe porte. Makes for interesting times.andyp wrote:mulletmaster wrote:Going to be a long couple of weeks for a relatively weak Astana squad when Saxo start throwing boys up the road every five minutes for day after day. They are lucky sky don't have a realistic GC hope as well.
Astana looked shockingly weak compared to Saxo yesterday, didn't they?
Seriously, I do wonder if people who comment on it actually watch the race sometimes.0 -
Not really been mentioned, but the shortness of yesterdays stage may also have contributed to the increased speed and the very early fight for position.
I'm looking forward to riders having to carry spare parts... Tradition....
Of course, if we want to test handling skills and allow other types of riders to shine then why not throw in a Cross TT? Over the log and up the steps you go, Alberto.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Who exactly are Saxo going to throw up the road? After Contador, their next best riders are over 13 minutes back on GC.mulletmaster wrote:Going to be a long couple of weeks for a relatively weak Astana squad when Saxo start throwing boys up the road every five minutes for day after day. They are lucky sky don't have a realistic GC hope as well.Twitter: @RichN950 -
