Tour de France Stage 5 Ypres-Arenberg *Spoiler*
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I'm actually quite conflicted about the cobbles in a GT.
I love the cobbles. In P-R.
I don't buy the line "if they don't fancy them they should pick another race" - I think that's probably an example of the macho willy waving ATC was talking about. It's the Tour, ffs, you don't pick it, it picks you (or your team/sponsors do...).
I don't like to see riders suffering through injury, but at the same time suffering is at the heart of cycling. The ability to win is the ability to suffer. And without suffering there's no space for heroism, and no space for romance.
I don't like to see riders suffer from pure bad luck either, but there's always luck involved - good and bad. The pothole you didn't see but missed...
I also thought today's stage offered some superb racing. It offered courageous riders the chance to benefit from their courage. It provided an early shake up in the GC, a chance to take some time that wasn't reliant on a mountain or a TT. Usually it takes the vagaries of the weather forcing an echelon to do that.
But cobbles riding isn't just dangerous, it's a specialist niche. And even the specialists can take a fall on them. I don't accept that the argument that the only withdrawal today came before the cobbles validates the idea that the cobbles are as safe as anything else, I think we just got lucky.
Lastly, as has been pointed out by others, if you crash in P-R and know you cant make up the time, you can just climb off. If you crash on the cobbles in the Tour you've still got 2 weeks of cycling ahead of you, you have to ride on. I think in the end that's where the difference lies for me. I'd love to have cobbles in the tour, but I just don't think they fit.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Coriander wrote:Hello,
I largely agree with you on the cobbles but I fully agree with you on the mood on here today. But unfortunately I think we're looking at a difference between men and women. I enjoy male company but every so often I am left thinking, 'oh, but...' Aside from today's obvious pr**k, obviously.
Cori
Charmed, I'm sure.
Why did you delete your post? You realised calling me a pr**k was a bad thing to do?0 -
TMR wrote:Coriander wrote:Hello,
I largely agree with you on the cobbles but I fully agree with you on the mood on here today. But unfortunately I think we're looking at a difference between men and women. I enjoy male company but every so often I am left thinking, 'oh, but...' Aside from today's obvious pr**k, obviously.
Cori
Charmed, I'm sure.
Just like the rest of us.0 -
Macaloon wrote:Mooro wrote:This reminds me of the scene from Team America, there are three types of people in this world... Can't remember which comes out on top but as we are all faceless on forums gender/race/girth etc doesn't matter... Unless your a d1ck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32iCWzpDpKs
If you're offended by the language, (edited!).
[spotswood] Yes Gary,.. Yes.... 0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:I'm actually quite conflicted about the cobbles in a GT.
I love the cobbles. In P-R.
I don't buy the line "if they don't fancy them they should pick another race" - I think that's probably an example of the macho willy waving ATC was talking about. It's the Tour, ffs, you don't pick it, it picks you (or your team/sponsors do...).
I don't like to see riders suffering through injury, but at the same time suffering is at the heart of cycling. The ability to win is the ability to suffer. And without suffering there's no space for heroism, and no space for romance.
I don't like to see riders suffer from pure bad luck either, but there's always luck involved - good and bad. The pothole you didn't see but missed...
I also thought today's stage offered some superb racing. It offered courageous riders the chance to benefit from their courage. It provided an early shake up in the GC, a chance to take some time that wasn't reliant on a mountain or a TT. Usually it takes the vagaries of the weather forcing an echelon to do that.
But cobbles riding isn't just dangerous, it's a specialist niche. And even the specialists can take a fall on them. I don't accept that the argument that the only withdrawal today came before the cobbles validates the idea that the cobbles are as safe as anything else, I think we just got lucky.
Lastly, as has been pointed out by others, if you crash in P-R and know you cant make up the time, you can just climb off. If you crash on the cobbles in the Tour you've still got 2 weeks of cycling ahead of you, you have to ride on. I think in the end that's where the difference lies for me. I'd love to have cobbles in the tour, but I just don't think they fit.
Fair comment. A great stage today, but can see what you mean. It affects the main GC boys the most as they have everything to lose.0 -
Good post NTD
Folks check out the comments from Cancellara, King of Cobbles, on cnews. He echos most of what I said earlier.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Pross wrote:Above The Cows wrote:Pross wrote:I took issue with Rich's post comparing it with Wimbledon and indirectly to Iain's in the post you quoted above. You and DD were more vocal in your opinion that the cobbles shouldn't be included though.
And I suppose I'm asking that people just respect other people's opinions rather than mock them, try and say they are saying something else or suggest in hindsight that just because today saw no major issues that those opinions are automatically invalid. I haven't changed my opinion because today saw no major disaster. I still think today's stage was designed more to engender some sort of 'soap opera' than anything else and I don't like that risk taking with people's bodies.
It all just struck me that some people were happy that the stage was becoming like a cage fight rather than a cycle race.
I still disagree on the soap opera point (other than the whole race is and always will be one and was created for that purpose). Cobbles aren't new to the race, that's why I find it hard to understand the argument that they shouldn't be included.
This is how I see it, the cobbles aren't new, they're included every now and then, and they give an extra dimension to a flat stage. They amplify a lot of the skills that GT riders (generally) have to be good at anyway, i.e. positioning in the peleton (always important) bike handling (downhil) outright power (TTs). They also give riders a chance to shine in a race in which they otherwise play a domestique role.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Personally I have mixed feelings about them. On one hand they undoubtedly create memorable stages without fail. And the way things panned out today sets the rest of the Tour up quite nicely.Pross wrote:I took issue with Rich's post comparing it with Wimbledon and indirectly to Iain's in the post you quoted above. You and DD were more vocal in your opinion that the cobbles shouldn't be included though.
However, I believe the organisers were very lucky. They lost Froome, largely because of yesterday, but on another day they could have lost more. I think Froome's DNF made all the GC guys more cautious (except the cycling version of Gonzo from the Muppets).
The thing is that first week of Tours have always been a bit frantic and there's always collateral damage, but I don't see why it is sensible to deliberately make it worse. Sport as entertainment is about the top competitors facing each other. The calendar means the top names in cycling rarely race each other on top form, this is the one time they always do. So why play dice with their participation? That's kind of where the Wimbledon analogy came from - unnecessarily jeopardising the progress of the big names.
Financially the Tour is 80% of the sport, and it is sponsor funded. If a sponsor is paying $10m a year they're not going to be impressed this sort of lottery in the year's main event. The two big clashes of the Tour never even started - and that can't be good for TV ratings either.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Jesus, I missed the thread from about page 18 to page 70 as I was at work and didn't want to spoil the result, what the heck happened on here? Aside form a few doping trolls who thankfully disappeared earlier in the year this forum is normally quite a nice place to "hang out" this is just nasty today.
It was an emotional stage which was always going to divide opinions but that's no reason to rip in to each other on here...0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:I'm actually quite conflicted about the cobbles in a GT.
I love the cobbles. In P-R.
I don't buy the line "if they don't fancy them they should pick another race" - I think that's probably an example of the macho willy waving ATC was talking about. It's the Tour, ffs, you don't pick it, it picks you (or your team/sponsors do...).
I don't like to see riders suffering through injury, but at the same time suffering is at the heart of cycling. The ability to win is the ability to suffer. And without suffering there's no space for heroism, and no space for romance.
I don't like to see riders suffer from pure bad luck either, but there's always luck involved - good and bad. The pothole you didn't see but missed...
I also thought today's stage offered some superb racing. It offered courageous riders the chance to benefit from their courage. It provided an early shake up in the GC, a chance to take some time that wasn't reliant on a mountain or a TT. Usually it takes the vagaries of the weather forcing an echelon to do that.
But cobbles riding isn't just dangerous, it's a specialist niche. And even the specialists can take a fall on them. I don't accept that the argument that the only withdrawal today came before the cobbles validates the idea that the cobbles are as safe as anything else, I think we just got lucky.
Lastly, as has been pointed out by others, if you crash in P-R and know you cant make up the time, you can just climb off. If you crash on the cobbles in the Tour you've still got 2 weeks of cycling ahead of you, you have to ride on. I think in the end that's where the difference lies for me. I'd love to have cobbles in the tour, but I just don't think they fit.
I THANK you. This. And then this.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Is it that hard to post a link for people?frenchfighter wrote:Good post NTD
Folks check out the comments from Cancellara, King of Cobbles, on cnews. He echos most of what I said earlier.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cancell ... -de-france0 -
RichN95 wrote:(except the cycling version of Gonzo from the Muppets).
OK who is Gonzo?
Oh and + to the rest of what you said.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Paul 8v wrote:Jesus, I missed the thread from about page 18 to page 70 as I was at work and didn't want to spoil the result, what the heck happened on here? Aside form a few doping trolls who thankfully disappeared earlier in the year this forum is normally quite a nice place to "hang out" this is just nasty today.
It was an emotional stage which was always going to divide opinions but that's no reason to rip in to each other on here...
Is it that bad?0 -
Free copies of the Daily Mail for all I reckon.0
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No, it isn't. Maybe by normal BR standards it was a bit more heated than usual, but it was and is extremely restrained by internet standards.Joelsim wrote:Paul 8v wrote:Jesus, I missed the thread from about page 18 to page 70 as I was at work and didn't want to spoil the result, what the heck happened on here? Aside form a few doping trolls who thankfully disappeared earlier in the year this forum is normally quite a nice place to "hang out" this is just nasty today.
It was an emotional stage which was always going to divide opinions but that's no reason to rip in to each other on here...
Is it that bad?0 -
Another reason Contador couldn't keep up in the end was because his small sprockets were blocked with mud so he was spinning out. He also said there was a break at the point he and Nibali separated.
Once a gap opens on wet cobbles coming round the side generally isnt easy at all.
Boom said he was crying and had goosebumps before the end. He is also going on like he has won PR. Someone needs to let him know its the Tour and he still only has one top ten placing in a classic.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Above The Cows wrote:Joelsim wrote:Mooro wrote:Above The Cows wrote:silly little boys waving their willies around like they're back in the playground
I went to school in the grim north, but even up there that would have been frowned at!
I think the discussion was fine today other than people being pleased about froomes departure which was a bit 'meh'
I'd happily wave my willy around if it was big enough.
Joel you're winning post of the thread and are a contender for post of the Tour with your 'Ytting' post, you can use that if you want a willy to wave around.
I've not had any nominations yet, but I'm hung like Delgado.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Nibali. The fearless daredevil.Above The Cows wrote:RichN95 wrote:(except the cycling version of Gonzo from the Muppets).
OK who is Gonzo?Twitter: @RichN950 -
No tA Doctor wrote:I'm actually quite conflicted about the cobbles in a GT.
I love the cobbles. In P-R.
I don't buy the line "if they don't fancy them they should pick another race" - I think that's probably an example of the macho willy waving ATC was talking about. It's the Tour, ffs, you don't pick it, it picks you (or your team/sponsors do...).
I don't like to see riders suffering through injury, but at the same time suffering is at the heart of cycling. The ability to win is the ability to suffer. And without suffering there's no space for heroism, and no space for romance.
I don't like to see riders suffer from pure bad luck either, but there's always luck involved - good and bad. The pothole you didn't see but missed...
I also thought today's stage offered some superb racing. It offered courageous riders the chance to benefit from their courage. It provided an early shake up in the GC, a chance to take some time that wasn't reliant on a mountain or a TT. Usually it takes the vagaries of the weather forcing an echelon to do that.
But cobbles riding isn't just dangerous, it's a specialist niche. And even the specialists can take a fall on them. I don't accept that the argument that the only withdrawal today came before the cobbles validates the idea that the cobbles are as safe as anything else, I think we just got lucky.
Lastly, as has been pointed out by others, if you crash in P-R and know you cant make up the time, you can just climb off. If you crash on the cobbles in the Tour you've still got 2 weeks of cycling ahead of you, you have to ride on. I think in the end that's where the difference lies for me. I'd love to have cobbles in the tour, but I just don't think they fit.
Tbf, only one dnf today. There were only two the last time the tour raced the cobbles. Not the greatest attritional taste given both were in the early part of the race when things are at their most nervous.
I understand where people at coming from viz. GC candidates having their race ended, but unless they're actually forced to climb of like Froome today, that still have a race to ride. It's part and parcel of a GT that you can lose the race on any day.
But their is more to a GT than the GC. Lose a packet on the cobbles like Franck Schleck? Fine. Now show me what your made of. Go out there and chase a stage - there still plenty of opportunity to make your mark on the race, and everyone loves seeing an athlete overcome their disappointment like that - especially in a sport like cycling where the the audience still tends to applaud riders whether or not they're "their man".Team My Man 2018: David gaudu, Pierre Latour, Romain Bardet, Thibaut pinot, Alexandre Geniez, Florian Senechal, Warren Barguil, Benoit Cosnefroy0 -
Any more Spring Classics masquerading as grand tour stages this year?
We've had a LBL type stage, and a PR stage, what's next?0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Another reason Contador couldn't keep up in the end was because his small sprockets were blocked with mud so he was spinning out. He also said there was a break at the point he and Nibali separated.
Once a gap opens on wet cobbles coming round the side generally isnt easy at all.
Boom said he was crying and had goosebumps before the end. He is also going on like he has won PR. Someone needs to let him know its the Tour and he still only has one top ten placing in a classic.
Sagan did it well a few times, but he's got A-Level bike handling, Contador only got a basic GCSE pass.0 -
Sounds like I picked a good day to miss the race thread.
My opinion of today is that I loved watching people that are comfortable on cobbles, but I didn't enjoy watching those who aren't. I can't say I derived much pleasure from seeing Bert struggle, but I did love seeing little Richie Porte giving it some welly while caked in mud.
Reading through rider's post-stage reactions on twitter they almost without exception include the phrase "but crashed at a bad time". I don't know that that's a good thing.0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:Above The Cows wrote:Joelsim wrote:Mooro wrote:Above The Cows wrote:silly little boys waving their willies around like they're back in the playground
I went to school in the grim north, but even up there that would have been frowned at!
I think the discussion was fine today other than people being pleased about froomes departure which was a bit 'meh'
I'd happily wave my willy around if it was big enough.
Joel you're winning post of the thread and are a contender for post of the Tour with your 'Ytting' post, you can use that if you want a willy to wave around.
I've not had any nominations yet, but I'm hung like Delgado.
That's because you're a horse.
TBH I much preferred my post on FroomeCat! The Schlecks in paricular.0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:I'm actually quite conflicted about the cobbles in a GT.
I love the cobbles. In P-R.
I don't buy the line "if they don't fancy them they should pick another race" - I think that's probably an example of the macho willy waving ATC was talking about. It's the Tour, ffs, you don't pick it, it picks you (or your team/sponsors do...).
I don't like to see riders suffering through injury, but at the same time suffering is at the heart of cycling. The ability to win is the ability to suffer. And without suffering there's no space for heroism, and no space for romance.
I don't like to see riders suffer from pure bad luck either, but there's always luck involved - good and bad. The pothole you didn't see but missed...
I also thought today's stage offered some superb racing. It offered courageous riders the chance to benefit from their courage. It provided an early shake up in the GC, a chance to take some time that wasn't reliant on a mountain or a TT. Usually it takes the vagaries of the weather forcing an echelon to do that.
But cobbles riding isn't just dangerous, it's a specialist niche. And even the specialists can take a fall on them. I don't accept that the argument that the only withdrawal today came before the cobbles validates the idea that the cobbles are as safe as anything else, I think we just got lucky.
Lastly, as has been pointed out by others, if you crash in P-R and know you cant make up the time, you can just climb off. If you crash on the cobbles in the Tour you've still got 2 weeks of cycling ahead of you, you have to ride on. I think in the end that's where the difference lies for me. I'd love to have cobbles in the tour, but I just don't think they fit.
I appreciate there are a few more crashes coming upto a cobbled section with riders jostling for position, but I wonder if on cobbles there is more of a risk of injury. I don't have the most encyclopaedic race knowledge but other than frank schleck I don't think I can remember that many where there have been big rider damage.
Whilst people will quote anecdote, i wonder if anybody has done any analysis on where race impacting injuries occur as opposed to just road rash crashes.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Nibali. The fearless daredevil.Above The Cows wrote:RichN95 wrote:(except the cycling version of Gonzo from the Muppets).
OK who is Gonzo?
He's almost got the nose for it.Correlation is not causation.0 -
It's an interesting debate, sport often relies on the element of competitors being pushed to the limit for it's appeal to spectators. It has to retain that factor where it's fans think 'wow, I could never do that!' in order for it to fascinate and compel. If it's reduced to the mundane then it's popularity would fade. I watched all of the action this afternoon and whilst I enjoyed it at the time I still can't decide whether it's appropriate to the TdF.
I also think the organisers feel they have to manufacture a bit of drama due to the seriousness of sport these days, the margins are so small that without the odd hand grenade thrown in via the route you'd end up with 3 weeks of GT contenders following each other waiting for ITT's and the last 2k of a couple of mountain top finishes before any action.0 -
Sagan handles his bike better than half the peloton and has ridden cobbles and classics tens of times. Comparing him to Contador in this regard is pointless.Contador is the Greatest0
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frenchfighter wrote:Boom said he was crying and had goosebumps before the end. He is also going on like he has won PR. Someone needs to let him know its the Tour and he still only has one top ten placing in a classic.
He did well today though, you can't deny that. It was a tough stage.
I'd be interested to know why they had such problems with grip, particularly at roundabouts? Are tubulars not as good in the wet as clinchers? I've never ridden tubs so have no idea. I've never slipped in the wet and I ride aggressively.0 -
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=
- The stage was slightly as expected. There was rain, crashes, and some of the favorites lost time. As expected - no more, no less, says Brian Holm, who points out that there are many other equally dangerous situations in cycling as the ones the Tour field was through Wednesday in Northern France.
- It is also dangerous to drive down a mountain at 110 km / h in the rain. Trust me. If we start the discussion, it can be a very long discussion. Mass Sprint are also dangerous, we know that. It is technically a dangerous sport riding a bike. And the most dangerous are the riders who are not so good, says Brian Holm.
The Danish sports director is annoyed that Chris Froome now out of the Tour de France, but he recalls that it was not the cobblestones that cost Froome Tour-life.
- It was a pity. That's not what you would have hoped for. But now, he didn't crash on the cobblestones. One can blame them for much, but he crashed the second time before we hit the cobbles, says Holm.
The stage was won by Lars Boom, but in the GC the big winner was the leading Vicenzo Nibali who crossed the finish line together with Danish Jakob Fuglsang 17 seconds behind the winner.0
