Froome on Wiggins and more

adr82

iainf72 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

I honestly thought that Wiggins did ride for Froome at Oman. I have a vague memory of him pulling on the front and many remarking at it.

I'm wondering when the relationship went to pieces. Was it rubbish at the Dolphin in 2012?

Wasn't there a bit of bad feeling between them even back at the Vuelta in 2011? I thought I read somewhere they were roommates initially but that didn't last.

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

I honestly thought that Wiggins did ride for Froome at Oman. I have a vague memory of him pulling on the front and many remarking at it.

I'm wondering when the relationship went to pieces. Was it rubbish at the Dolphin in 2012?

I don't see much evidence that there was a relationship at any time beyond two people who worked together.

philwint

adr82 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

I honestly thought that Wiggins did ride for Froome at Oman. I have a vague memory of him pulling on the front and many remarking at it.

I'm wondering when the relationship went to pieces. Was it rubbish at the Dolphin in 2012?

Wasn't there a bit of bad feeling between them even back at the Vuelta in 2011? I thought I read somewhere they were roommates initially but that didn't last.

Wasn't the start something like: Froome worked really hard for Wiggins in the 2011 Vuelta, (in his eyes) losing a lot of time in the process. Wiggins came in second (just) and Froome felt DB should have given him the lead when it was clear he was going better than Wiggins.

Can't remember the exact detail, but i think that was the gist.

TMR

philwint wrote:

adr82 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

I honestly thought that Wiggins did ride for Froome at Oman. I have a vague memory of him pulling on the front and many remarking at it.

I'm wondering when the relationship went to pieces. Was it rubbish at the Dolphin in 2012?

Wasn't there a bit of bad feeling between them even back at the Vuelta in 2011? I thought I read somewhere they were roommates initially but that didn't last.

Wasn't the start something like: Froome worked really hard for Wiggins in the 2011 Vuelta, (in his eyes) losing a lot of time in the process. Wiggins came in second (just) and Froome felt DB should have given him the lead when it was clear he was going better than Wiggins.

Can't remember the exact detail, but i think that was the gist.

No, I think you're right. I remember one MTF where Froome went off to have a 1v1 with someone.

tuneskyline

TMR wrote:

philwint wrote:

adr82 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

I honestly thought that Wiggins did ride for Froome at Oman. I have a vague memory of him pulling on the front and many remarking at it.

I'm wondering when the relationship went to pieces. Was it rubbish at the Dolphin in 2012?

Wasn't there a bit of bad feeling between them even back at the Vuelta in 2011? I thought I read somewhere they were roommates initially but that didn't last.

Wasn't the start something like: Froome worked really hard for Wiggins in the 2011 Vuelta, (in his eyes) losing a lot of time in the process. Wiggins came in second (just) and Froome felt DB should have given him the lead when it was clear he was going better than Wiggins.

Can't remember the exact detail, but i think that was the gist.

No, I think you're right. I remember one MTF where Froome went off to have a 1v1 with someone.

I think your talking about stage 17 Vuelta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDhLx2Ue_xI

adr82

tuneskyline wrote:

TMR wrote:

philwint wrote:

adr82 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

I honestly thought that Wiggins did ride for Froome at Oman. I have a vague memory of him pulling on the front and many remarking at it.

I'm wondering when the relationship went to pieces. Was it rubbish at the Dolphin in 2012?

Wasn't there a bit of bad feeling between them even back at the Vuelta in 2011? I thought I read somewhere they were roommates initially but that didn't last.

Wasn't the start something like: Froome worked really hard for Wiggins in the 2011 Vuelta, (in his eyes) losing a lot of time in the process. Wiggins came in second (just) and Froome felt DB should have given him the lead when it was clear he was going better than Wiggins.

Can't remember the exact detail, but i think that was the gist.

No, I think you're right. I remember one MTF where Froome went off to have a 1v1 with someone.

I think your talking about stage 17 Vuelta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDhLx2Ue_xI

I think by then even Wiggins had admitted Froome should ride for himself, it was the Angliru stage where Froome waited for him and lost time to Cobo IIRC

FJS

tuneskyline wrote:

TMR wrote:

philwint wrote:

adr82 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

PuttyKnees wrote:

I honestly thought that Wiggins did ride for Froome at Oman. I have a vague memory of him pulling on the front and many remarking at it.

I'm wondering when the relationship went to pieces. Was it rubbish at the Dolphin in 2012?

Wasn't there a bit of bad feeling between them even back at the Vuelta in 2011? I thought I read somewhere they were roommates initially but that didn't last.

Wasn't the start something like: Froome worked really hard for Wiggins in the 2011 Vuelta, (in his eyes) losing a lot of time in the process. Wiggins came in second (just) and Froome felt DB should have given him the lead when it was clear he was going better than Wiggins.

Can't remember the exact detail, but i think that was the gist.

No, I think you're right. I remember one MTF where Froome went off to have a 1v1 with someone.

I think your talking about stage 17 Vuelta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDhLx2Ue_xI

Nah, by that stage Froome was already clearly Sky team leader for GC fighting it out with Cobo. That switch happened earlier, on the Angliru.

cal_stewart

Sky could of handled that Vuelta better, it was plain to see that froome was stronger and they kept wiggo tl to long .

It says more that CF is scared of BW planning payback to me, you've got to have done something wrong to get paid back

edhornby

even during the early stages of the vuelta it was a tough one to call, they didn't really know whether brad had regained his form and Froome was still a somewhat unknown quantity - they all lost a chunk of time on the prologue TTT, then during the first climbing stage they got froome to set tempo then drop off as per the plan and brad boomed the climb so it looked like it was the right plan, it was only during the individual TT when froome was quicker than brad and they realised that it was time to make the switch but by then the 1m20ish lost from the team role was already a done deal...

I still don't think that anyone made a genuinely malicious or sneaky decision then in terms of team orders, but I seem to be the only one that thinks this - hindsight's great innit

argyllflyer

Haven't read it but the podcast guys (Moore etc) were discussing this last week and apparently there's a bit in the book where Froome says Wiggins completely blanked him while being roommates at the 2011 Vuelta. In Froome's version, BW wouldn't answer anything he said to him, with the level of conversation ending up consisting of CF saying 'well goodnight then', and a room change was eventually arranged.

In terms of CF having to have done something in order for revenge to be served, it's pretty clear that BW thought Froome made him look stupid during his Tour win and says so in his own book. He was all set to quit the Tour because of his antipathy towards CF. On any occasion Wiggo has had to work for Froome since, it has not gone to plan (Oman, in Froome's words as there was only limited highlights, though this contradicts journalist opinion at the time that says BW did tireless work at the start of stages - but was that his role? and then Florence).

iainf72

Cal_Stewart wrote:

It says more that CF is scared of BW planning payback to me, you've got to have done something wrong to get paid back

I don't think he's scared of him at all.

In the cycling podcast, they said the Sky press conf's at the 2012 Tour were really fraught affairs with everyone a bit off with the others etc. But those were before Froome "did something wrong" so the whole thing had been festering for sometime

No_Ta_Doctor

With hindsight it's easy to say that Sky should have switched earlier at the vuelta! but as pointed out by others! Froome really wasn't a known quantity at that point. His reputation was as a strong but somewhat flakey rider. Wiggins was plan A, and needed testing in a GT. Let's not forget he did actually finish third, so it's not like he was a total disaster. And at that point it wasn't even clear Froome was going to be a Sky rider for the next season.

I can believe Wiggins was an arsehole and a right pain to be with. He's not a relaxed rider as a GT leader, he's intense, focused and pretty stressed. I can't imagine it would have been easy for him to flick the switch mentally to being 2nd to Froome, or what that might have meant for the Tour the next year.

But who knows what Froome was saying behind the scenes about leadership and his role? It's not hard to imagine that the young pretender tried to plant a few seeds of doubt.

putneypeddler

edhornby wrote:

even during the early stages of the vuelta it was a tough one to call, they didn't really know whether brad had regained his form and Froome was still a somewhat unknown quantity - they all lost a chunk of time on the prologue TTT, then during the first climbing stage they got froome to set tempo then drop off as per the plan and brad boomed the climb so it looked like it was the right plan, it was only during the individual TT when froome was quicker than brad and they realised that it was time to make the switch but by then the 1m20ish lost from the team role was already a done deal...

I still don't think that anyone made a genuinely malicious or sneaky decision then in terms of team orders, but I seem to be the only one that thinks this - hindsight's great innit

Wouldn't it be fair to say that simply Wiggins' was struggling to maintain the form he would have had for the TdF?

Surely the evidence is there when Froome was beating Wiggin's in the ITT?

Paulie W

putneypeddler wrote:

edhornby wrote:

even during the early stages of the vuelta it was a tough one to call, they didn't really know whether brad had regained his form and Froome was still a somewhat unknown quantity - they all lost a chunk of time on the prologue TTT, then during the first climbing stage they got froome to set tempo then drop off as per the plan and brad boomed the climb so it looked like it was the right plan, it was only during the individual TT when froome was quicker than brad and they realised that it was time to make the switch but by then the 1m20ish lost from the team role was already a done deal...

I still don't think that anyone made a genuinely malicious or sneaky decision then in terms of team orders, but I seem to be the only one that thinks this - hindsight's great innit

Wouldn't it be fair to say that simply Wiggins' was struggling to maintain the form he would have had for the TdF?

Surely the evidence is there when Froome was beating Wiggin's in the ITT?

Froome led after the TT and if they'd switched leadership then it's a very strong possibility that Froome would have won but the next day he rode for Wiggins and lost time (not much but more than he eventually lost the race by). As others said earlier it was on Angliru that Wiggins told Froome to go but only at the point that Cobo was well down the road.

r0bh

iainf72 wrote:

Cal_Stewart wrote:

It says more that CF is scared of BW planning payback to me, you've got to have done something wrong to get paid back

I don't think he's scared of him at all.

In the cycling podcast, they said the Sky press conf's at the 2012 Tour were really fraught affairs with everyone a bit off with the others etc. But those were before Froome "did something wrong" so the whole thing had been festering for sometime

No, they were talking about a press conference towards the end of the 2012 Tour, after stage 11.

iainf72

r0bh wrote:

No, they were talking about a press conference towards the end of the 2012 Tour, after stage 11.

Yup, and the "catch up you ginger sideburned plonker" happened on stage 17.

Re : The Vuelta in 2011. I'm not a Sky fan or Wiggins fan but I thought riding for Wiggins was the right call

Paulie W

I agree it was the right call as Wiggins was the known quantity, and Froome's future was unclear so better to support Wiggins from a 'political' perspective, but it remains true if the decision had been taken to back Froome after the TT, Froome would likely have won.

I seem to recall - and no doubt someone has mentioned it somewhere in the 47 pages - Froome talking about how much he learnt from Wiggins in that Vuelta about managing your effort.

Macaloon

Sir Bradley Wiggins will be named in England team for the Commonwealth Games, which overlap with the Tour de France, while Chris Froome defends inhaler use

Mainstream koolaid.

r0bh

iainf72 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

No, they were talking about a press conference towards the end of the 2012 Tour, after stage 11.

Yup, and the "catch up you ginger sideburned plonker" happened on stage 17.

But it was after Stage 11 when Wiggins threw his toys out, threatened to go home etc

iainf72 wrote:

Re : The Vuelta in 2011. I'm not a Sky fan or Wiggins fan but I thought riding for Wiggins was the right call

I agree, easy to look back now and say Froome should have been the protected rider but before the Vuelta he hadn't really done anything to suggest he could be a Grand Tour winner.

adr82

r0bh wrote:

But it was after Stage 11 when Wiggins threw his toys out, threatened to go home etc

That was such a ridiculous reaction. I'm not sure if he was actually serious or simply looking for attention but either way it doesn't reflect well on him. You don't want someone on your team who's prone to going off like that.

Pross

iainf72 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

No, they were talking about a press conference towards the end of the 2012 Tour, after stage 11.

Yup, and the "catch up you ginger sideburned plonker" happened on stage 17.

Re : The Vuelta in 2011. I'm not a Sky fan or Wiggins fan but I thought riding for Wiggins was the right call

It was definitely the right call but I think they probably made an error on the Angliru. Froome couldn't really do anything that would have assisted Wiggins on those gradients so there should have been a call made for Froome to go on with Cobo and just follow him i.e. not actively try to take time out of Wiggins but ensure that one or other of them held the race lead at the end. That said Froome said in post race interviews that neither he or Wiggins could go with Cobo so maybe it wasn't an option.

Richmond Racer

adr82 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

But it was after Stage 11 when Wiggins threw his toys out, threatened to go home etc

That was such a ridiculous reaction. I'm not sure if he was actually serious or simply looking for attention but either way it doesn't reflect well on him. You don't want someone on your team who's prone to going off like that.

He was never going to leave. More a stamping of the feet and a demand to Brailsford to sort things out (which Brailsford was avoiding). Even Yates who was the first one to tell that story, said that.

Make of it what you will, I guess.

Richmond Racer

Pross wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

No, they were talking about a press conference towards the end of the 2012 Tour, after stage 11.

Yup, and the "catch up you ginger sideburned plonker" happened on stage 17.

Re : The Vuelta in 2011. I'm not a Sky fan or Wiggins fan but I thought riding for Wiggins was the right call

It was definitely the right call but I think they probably made an error on the Angliru. Froome couldn't really do anything that would have assisted Wiggins on those gradients so there should have been a call made for Froome to go on with Cobo and just follow him i.e. not actively try to take time out of Wiggins but ensure that one or other of them held the race lead at the end. That said Froome said in post race interviews that neither he or Wiggins could go with Cobo so maybe it wasn't an option.

Wiggins gearing was also wrong IIRC, which didnt help things - cant remember whether it was him or the mechanic who made the wrong choice. Froome still the superior climber, of course.

iainf72

Today in cycling podcast the boys reckon it's not a situation that can be managed and one of the people needs to be removed.

And then they had a football analogy.

And a fantastically funny / tragic admission from Friebe about how he stores numbers in his phone

Richmond Racer

iainf72 wrote:

Today in cycling podcast the boys reckon it's not a situation that can be managed and one of the people needs to be removed.

And then they had a football analogy.

And a fantastically funny / tragic admission from Friebe about how he stores numbers in his phone

Didnt Moore and co say that in the previous podcast? or are they just repeating it for extra effect?

adr82

Richmond Racer wrote:

adr82 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

But it was after Stage 11 when Wiggins threw his toys out, threatened to go home etc

That was such a ridiculous reaction. I'm not sure if he was actually serious or simply looking for attention but either way it doesn't reflect well on him. You don't want someone on your team who's prone to going off like that.

He was never going to leave. More a stamping of the feet and a demand to Brailsford to sort things out (which Brailsford was avoiding). Even Yates who was the first one to tell that story, said that.

Make of it what you will, I guess.

What I make of it is that this is part of the price you tend to pay for having someone with a more "interesting" personality on your team. I'd be very surprised if "boring" Froome ever pulled something like that. If I was managing them I'd be much happier relying on Froome than Wiggins.

salsiccia1

Richmond Racer wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Today in cycling podcast the boys reckon it's not a situation that can be managed and one of the people needs to be removed.

And then they had a football analogy.

And a fantastically funny / tragic admission from Friebe about how he stores numbers in his phone

Didnt Moore and co say that in the previous podcast? or are they just repeating it for extra effect?

I thought that analogy was already discussed, dissected and dismissed as bullshit in some of the more delicate ruminations on this thread.

tailwindhome

Take That were never the same after Robbie left.

TheBigBean

Pross wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

No, they were talking about a press conference towards the end of the 2012 Tour, after stage 11.

Yup, and the "catch up you ginger sideburned plonker" happened on stage 17.

Re : The Vuelta in 2011. I'm not a Sky fan or Wiggins fan but I thought riding for Wiggins was the right call

It was definitely the right call but I think they probably made an error on the Angliru. Froome couldn't really do anything that would have assisted Wiggins on those gradients so there should have been a call made for Froome to go on with Cobo and just follow him i.e. not actively try to take time out of Wiggins but ensure that one or other of them held the race lead at the end. That said Froome said in post race interviews that neither he or Wiggins could go with Cobo so maybe it wasn't an option.

I've never really been able to see the point of well positioned domestiques waiting for nominated leaders who have been found wanting in the mountains - especially if there limited time trails to come. The team leader should be the strongest rider not the one with the largest ego / palmares. There are many examples of this in the past e.g. TVG waiting for Evans, Kloden waiting for Ulrich etc.

Sky couldn't have known that Froome would be the strongest, but they could have reacted quicker or put a plan in place in case he was.

PuttyKnees

I'm still holding to the view that this is all a glorious man management failure.