Froome on Wiggins and more

Richmond Racer

Pross wrote:

cougie wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Key to all this is whether Wiggins would have been a good domestique, so how many times has Wiggins worked for someone else? Copenhagen, Champs-Élysées (at a push), any others?

Well he wasnt always a star rider - who was he with before - Cofidis and others ? I cant remember the details now - but he must have done his turn then.

2009 he ended up 4th (3rd?) due to the support he was initially giving at Garmin for Vandevelde. In 2012 didn't he also help bring Cav back for that stage win where they closed LLS out in the final metres?

Oh yeah - Lulu and Roche etc

No_Ta_Doctor

FJS wrote:

putneypeddler wrote:

Ultimately from the outside it looks as though Wiggins felt betrayed in 2012 - and going by the whole DB mantra of 1 GC rider surely this means that there was never any question as to who was leading that team in 2012. Froome attacked his leader in yellow, everyone saw that. He may be p*ssed he never got his chance for GC, but that surely should be directed at Sky, not Wiggins?

He didn't attack the yellow jersey though. That seems conceived wisdom in some circles now, but it was more securing a 2nd spot in GC and stage victory.

I don't think we're talking about the stage win. At least I'm not. The stage win was planned and ridden according to plan. I'm talking about when he dropped Wiggins on stage 11 and had to be called back. That was seriously off script, unapproved and left Wiggins isolated on the climb. It was truly shitty.

slowbike

Macaloon wrote:

MrT wrote:

I think the Wiggo's out of the lamp.....was what was said this am probably mischief making in a humble type of way...very likely....press will be all over this until the tour starts when they'll be all over it even more. It will run and run in numerous ways and the problem now is whatever anyone connected with Sky says or BC or any other time for that matter..it will be seized upon and wrung and spun.

A competent executive would have had a communications strategy in place to respond to this inevitable spike in negative publicity, bordering on incredulity, directed at his organisation. There are many exceptionally intelligent people working in media outfits. Not many of the in Sky Corporation, apparently.

A competent executive - especially one that is sponsored by a comms company - would have control over what their employees said in public. Which leads me to believe that whilst a lot may be true, it's not necessarily the whole truth, but a Sky version of the truth.

A lot of ppl like Wiggo because they can identify with him more. We know where he's come from. It's a little more difficult to identify with a Kenyan born Brit brought up in South Africa.

What I'd love to see is Wiggo on the Champs-Élysées leading out Cav* for the win - again ... that was a fabulous bit of viewing watching the Yellow Jersey lay it down** for a team mate to take the win.

*even if they're not on the same team
**yes I know that he wouldn't have lost the yellow jersey anyway.

The bit I think is wrong with cycling is the All for One but not One for All set up. The team sacrifice themselves for their chosen rider yet don't seem to pick up the glory in the same way that the winner does.

TheBigBean

Richmond Racer wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Yes, I'm aware, and I remember what Millar had to say about his time at Garmin. At Confidis he rode the TTs.

so the rest of the time he was in the team car?

Come on Bean, you know better than this

I think I just have a different opinion.

I'm really quite sure that Cav wouldn't have said Wiggins worked for him in the 2008 Olympics.

The reality is that to be a top level individual sportsman you need to be selfish and obsessive, and that these qualities don't usually make for a good domestqiue. Wiggins is far from unique in this regard, you only need to look as far as.... Froome.

Le Commentateur

"A competent executive" – cycling is indeed the new golf.

salsiccia1

adr82 wrote:

I think what Froome did in 2012 gets blown out of proportion. It's not like he rode off into the distance instead of coming back when he was told to, and he didn't cause Wiggins to lose any time either. What Wiggins did last year with all his talk of doing the Giro+Tour was worse IMO. I don't know if Froome has the final say on his team or not, I don't know (like most of you) what's going on within Sky in any detail, but if I was him I'd want people with me I didn't have any doubts about. If you're a GT contender in the TdF (and defending champion too) I think you want to minimise the potential sources of conflict and stress in your own team because you have more than enough to worry about already! If that means leaving Wiggins out, that's how it has to be. There was a bit in the recent Cycling Podcast where they were talking about how it's a British thing to always try to include "star players" in a team (particularly in football) without really thinking through how much sense it makes, while other countries have no issues leaving out a superstar who won't fit into their team. This is a good example of applying that rule.

Richmond Racer

TheBigBean wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Yes, I'm aware, and I remember what Millar had to say about his time at Garmin. At Confidis he rode the TTs.

so the rest of the time he was in the team car?

Come on Bean, you know better than this

I think I just have a different opinion.

I'm really quite sure that Cav wouldn't have said Wiggins worked for him in the 2008 Olympics.

The reality is that to be a top level individual sportsman you need to be selfish and obsessive, and that these qualities don't usually make for a good domestqiue. Wiggins is far from unique in this regard, you only need to look as far as.... Froome.

Whereas at the Worlds a few months previously, Wiggins was stronger than Cav (a rare admission from Cav in his first book), and basically carried them to the title

Swings and roundabouts

But we have different opinions, as you say

FJS

Richmond Racer wrote:

FJS wrote:

putneypeddler wrote:

Ultimately from the outside it looks as though Wiggins felt betrayed in 2012 - and going by the whole DB mantra of 1 GC rider surely this means that there was never any question as to who was leading that team in 2012. Froome attacked his leader in yellow, everyone saw that. He may be p*ssed he never got his chance for GC, but that surely should be directed at Sky, not Wiggins?

He didn't attack the yellow jersey though. That seems conceived wisdom in some circles now, but it was more securing a 2nd spot in GC and stage victory.

What he did do, FJS - and this is unarguable, even he has admitted it - was to disobey team orders. He was told he could push on to try for the win if Wiggins was safe, with either 1 or 2km to go (cant remember which). And all that morning in the team bus he kept on pushing to be allowed to attack further out - 5km, 4km - and was told no every time.

Sure, just pointing out that he diidn't actually attack the yellow jersey as such, more tried to pursue his own goals and make a point. Which is exactly why I'm no fan of Sky's rigid policy of dropping everything for the single GC leader. I'd much rather see them giving Wiggins a place on the TdF roster this year with some free maverick role, Froome given more freedom in the 2012 TdF, earlier switching to dual leaders in the 2011 Vuelta and 2013 Giro, etc, etc. But that doesn't seem Sky's way of doing things.

mroli

Le Commentateur wrote:

"A competent executive" – cycling is indeed the new golf.

Indeed - isn't one of the fantastic things about cycling that individuals go "off message" every now and then and air dirty linen in public. The (cycling) world would be an incredibly boring place with teams being full of EBH's saying everything was "nice and good"....

bompington

mroli wrote:

isn't one of the fantastic things about cycling that individuals go "off message" every now and then and air dirty linen in public. The (cycling) world would be an incredibly boring place with teams being full of EBH's saying everything was "nice and good"....

Maybe you just need to stay in and watch Eastenders instead.

Richmond Racer

FJS wrote:

Sure, just pointing out that he diidn't actually attack the yellow jersey as such, more tried to pursue his own goals and make a point. Which is exactly why I'm no fan of Sky's rigid policy of dropping everything for the single GC leader. I'd much rather see them giving Wiggins a place on the TdF roster this year with some free maverick role, Froome given more freedom in the 2012 TdF, earlier switching to dual leaders in the 2011 Vuelta and 2013 Giro, etc, etc. But that doesn't seem Sky's way of doing things.

Ah, gotcha.

DeVlaeminck

adr82 wrote:

There was a bit in the recent Cycling Podcast where they were talking about how it's a British thing to always try to include "star players" in a team (particularly in football) without really thinking through how much sense it makes, while other countries have no issues leaving out a superstar who won't fit into their team. This is a good example of applying that rule.

Yes I heard that too, it was bullshit. They used a football analogy. If anything the England team has been more willing to leave star names out of the team- Gazza being the most notable example but also Beckham in 2010 and in his day Hoddle - than other major European teams. That podcast is just their opinion but it gets quoted on here like it's gospel.

sy1975

I am certainly no expert - But I do believe that DB is a fantastic DS and knows exactly what he is doing - It actually seems quite simple.

Wiggins is not as strong as he was - california was a decent win (although I would have rather of seen wiggins go to the giro and win that) - I am sure internal stats would prove that Frome is closer to the TDF winning profile than Wiggins is. Hence why they are backing Frome as their leader. Internal politics may also play a part but I believe DB has made the right decision for the team.

My personal view of Wiggins win was that he was gifted his TDF win (as much as that is possible in the hardest sport in the world). If he had true class he would have built on that performance. Not a popular view it would seem

I also think that the BBC interview is Wiggins way of positioning himself as "on the market" he will be at katusha by the end of the year

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

adr82 wrote:

There was a bit in the recent Cycling Podcast where they were talking about how it's a British thing to always try to include "star players" in a team (particularly in football) without really thinking through how much sense it makes, while other countries have no issues leaving out a superstar who won't fit into their team. This is a good example of applying that rule.

Yes I heard that too, it was bullshit. They used a football analogy. If anything the England team has been more willing to leave star names out of the team- Gazza being the most notable example but also Beckham in 2010 and in his day Hoddle - than other major European teams. That podcast is just their opinion but it gets quoted on here like it's gospel.

They were probably thinking of a decade's worth of attempts at getting Gerrard and Lampard to play effectively together with little success.

Richmond Racer

sy1975 wrote:

I am certainly no expert - But I do believe that DB is a fantastic DS and knows exactly what he is doing - It actually seems quite simple.

Wiggins is not as strong as he was - california was a decent win (although I would have rather of seen wiggins go to the giro and win that) - I am sure internal stats would prove that Frome is closer to the TDF winning profile than Wiggins is. Hence why they are backing Frome as their leader. Internal politics may also play a part but I believe DB has made the right decision for the team.

My personal view of Wiggins win was that he was gifted his TDF win (as much as that is possible in the hardest sport in the world). If he had true class he would have built on that performance. Not a popular view it would seem

I also think that the BBC interview is Wiggins way of positioning himself as "on the market" he will be at katusha by the end of the year

You do know that Brailsford isnt actually a DS? Either a fantastic one, or otherwise?

sy1975

Richmond Racer wrote:

sy1975 wrote:

I am certainly no expert - But I do believe that DB is a fantastic DS and knows exactly what he is doing - It actually seems quite simple.

Wiggins is not as strong as he was - california was a decent win (although I would have rather of seen wiggins go to the giro and win that) - I am sure internal stats would prove that Frome is closer to the TDF winning profile than Wiggins is. Hence why they are backing Frome as their leader. Internal politics may also play a part but I believe DB has made the right decision for the team.

My personal view of Wiggins win was that he was gifted his TDF win (as much as that is possible in the hardest sport in the world). If he had true class he would have built on that performance. Not a popular view it would seem

I also think that the BBC interview is Wiggins way of positioning himself as "on the market" he will be at katusha by the end of the year

You do realise that Brailsford isnt actually a DS?

apologies - however he would have a decent say in team strategy - would you agree?

Coach H

Double Post

DeVlaeminck

RichN95 wrote:

They were probably thinking of a decade's worth of attempts at getting Gerrard and Lampard to play effectively together with little success.

Possibly that, though it's a bit much to call it a British trait when it was mostly a foreign manager picking them.

Going further back Jimmy Greaves didn't get back into the team in 66 either so maybe it's a Swedish/Italian thing.

Coach H

Salsiccia1 wrote:

adr82 wrote:

I think what Froome did in 2012 gets blown out of proportion. It's not like he rode off into the distance instead of coming back when he was told to, and he didn't cause Wiggins to lose any time either. What Wiggins did last year with all his talk of doing the Giro+Tour was worse IMO. I don't know if Froome has the final say on his team or not, I don't know (like most of you) what's going on within Sky in any detail, but if I was him I'd want people with me I didn't have any doubts about. If you're a GT contender in the TdF (and defending champion too) I think you want to minimise the potential sources of conflict and stress in your own team because you have more than enough to worry about already! If that means leaving Wiggins out, that's how it has to be. There was a bit in the recent Cycling Podcast where they were talking about how it's a British thing to always try to include "star players" in a team (particularly in football) without really thinking through how much sense it makes, while other countries have no issues leaving out a superstar who won't fit into their team. This is a good example of applying that rule.

FJS wrote:

curium wrote:

FleshTuxedo wrote:

Tour will be less entertaining without Wiggins. It's a shame. My ambivalence to Froome has taken a small step in the negative direction. I think Sky will have a weaker team without him and that might prove a mistake. Then again, Froome might monster it anyway.

Tour will be less entertaining without the potential for needle between these two and the journos trying to stir it daily.

Which is an extremely good reason for Brailsford to decide to not have Wiggins on the Tour squad.

But as I speculated a number of pages ago now before the announcement, as far as PR and the journo's go I think leaving Wiggo out will be far more destructive, lead to constant distraction and give the journo's more scope to stir it daily

Wiggo in and playing the domestique;
Juurno: So Chris how is the atmosphere in the team and your relationship with Sir Brad affecting the race so far?
CF: As you have seen for yourself Brad is doing all that is being asked of him as a team mate and we are getting on fine
Result - No real story, no follow-up questions likely to add value to a storyline, end of discussion.

Wiggo in and playing up
Journo: So Chris how is the atmosphere in the team and your relationship with Sir Brad affecting the race so far?
CF: As you have seen for yourself Brad is riding his own race but as a team the rest of us are working together and its not affecting the overall plan
Result - Bit of a story here but nothing that was not written about ad infenitum in the run up to the Tour, a few follow up questions but easy to answer and move on

Wiggo out
Journo (x every English speaking one, and some of the foreign ones too just for giggles, in every presser from today to the end of the tour to every member of the SKY team): Should Sir Brad be in the team? How does this affect the teams chances? Are you worried about how the British public will see this? etc, etc, etc
@franmillar: Chris (or insert other) will only be answering 2 Sir Bradley questions today
Result - Constant stress and speculation in the team unless SKY PR can control a Simon Fuller influenced British Press pack (and that's just not going to happen)

No wonder David Miller is winding his little sister up!

culverwood

Coach H - spot on.

Turfle

In any of those versions is Sir Brad giving sneaky interviews to the BBC that undermine the team, like the one he gave today?

putneypeddler

undermine the team? What was said that did that?

Pross

Turfle wrote:

In any of those versions is Sir Brad giving sneaky interviews to the BBC that undermine the team, like the one he gave today?

Do you really think Wiggins interview this morning wasn't given with the full knowledge of the team?

Le Commentateur

Exactly, you're all playing the ball for Wiggins (or his PR managers).

Frankly he isn't strong enough in the mountains to win this tour, and he now has (after last year's Giro) a reputation for being unreliable if conditions aren't under his control. Add to that the crack-like hit of fame following summer 2012 and the unnerving effect it can have: people continually just wanting to see him/interview him/award him because of what he'd already done, rather than take an interest in future ambitions, mean he's locked in a perpetual 2012, reliving that past glory.

DeVlaeminck

putneypeddler wrote:

undermine the team? What was said that did that?

Yes he had ample opportunity to undermine the team if he wanted to. Wouldn't surprise me if a few people try to undermine Wiggins now though, especially if things go badly for Froome or his popularity nosedives.

milton50

No tA Doctor wrote:

On a purely emotional level, I've never ever warmed to Froome at all. Wiggins can be an utter knobend, but I can't help liking him most of the time.

If we're having the personality discussion then I pretty much agree with the above.

Wiggins can be a diva and a d*ck but most of the time he does come across as a decent bloke.

To me Froome appears an awkward person with quite a serpficial personality. He has the ego and prima donna tendency to match Wiggins but without the redeeming sense of humour.

FJS

Le Commentateur wrote:

Exactly, you're all playing the ball for Wiggins (or his PR managers).

Interesting paragraph by Will Fotheringham on Simon Fuller's possible role there: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2 ... sh-cycling

mroli

bompington wrote:

Maybe you just need to stay in and watch Eastenders instead.

Yeah - fair enough. I look forward to a sport where no-one states their opinion or has a view, where they all kowtow to their corporate sponsors and do as they're told.

No need for forums like this then!

argyllflyer

It's been said that Wiggo's absence will lessen the effect of Tour de Yorkshire, but I disagree. It will be massive box office anyway, Cav will compete for Stage 1 and 3 honours and Sky will be pack fodder on all three stages. Wiggo's presence would be an almost irrelevant sideshow to the action on the road. Sky won't come to the fore until they cross the channel.

Le Commentateur

OnYourRight wrote:

I find it very hard to believe that Wiggins won’t be starting this Tour, whether with Sky or someone else. The publicity value of Wiggins in Yorkshire is off the charts, and I’m sure he’s personally desperate to ride it.

Well, he's apparently still on the final 13 rider long-list.