On board bike cameras

mrushton

Genuine on the edge of your seat footage. We know they are going fast but watching that shows the reality and how when things go wrong there is no way to avoid it. Loved hearing those gears click but not for the faint hearted in that front group

mm1

underlayunderlay wrote:

As an experiment, I've just shown the Degenkolb footage to my wife, who doesn't watch much cycling but sort of stays in touch with the results. Her two comments were 'that looks bloody terrifying' and 'I never realised how noisy it would be'.

Your wife's responses are spot on. I think the idea that covereage from inside the bunch when there's "nothing" happening would be boring are very far from the truth, even just riding along would be scarily impressive.

Remember Cav's response when asked by one of the guys who he trains with on the island how long he would last in a Tour stage was that he doubted his mate would make it to the end of the neutralised zone - not because of a lack of fitness but becuase of a lack of experience / skill at riding in that large a group packed gutter to gutter. Being able to see the chaos and awesome bike handling from inside is a terrific assault on the senses.

Macaloon

Let's get cameras on Nibali and Cav to compare descending.

hammerite

Macaloon wrote:

Let's get cameras on Nibali and Cav to compare descending.

That would be very interesting. Especially given that we often hear commentators say how good sprinters are at descending as they need to in order to stay within time limits - but they never have a moto with them.

Paul 8v

That was a great video, I've not seen a piece of footage that portrays the drama in the last few hundred metres any better than that. It looks so much faster, this is the future surely?

dave milne

hammerite wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

Let's get cameras on Nibali and Cav to compare descending.

That would be very interesting. Especially given that we often hear commentators say how good sprinters are at descending as they need to in order to stay within time limits - but they never have a moto with them.

I'd love to see the TV put a 4th moto back on mountain stages just for this. I apprecitate the gruppetto won't appreciate it during a climb but maybe as a one-off to capture the descending

RichN95.

dave milne wrote:

hammerite wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

Let's get cameras on Nibali and Cav to compare descending.

That would be very interesting. Especially given that we often hear commentators say how good sprinters are at descending as they need to in order to stay within time limits - but they never have a moto with them.

I'd love to see the TV put a 4th moto back on mountain stages just for this. I apprecitate the gruppetto won't appreciate it during a climb but maybe as a one-off to capture the descending

You'd have the technical problem that the relay helicopters (which would be following the front groups) would be to far away. So you'd need an extra helicopter too.

Macaloon

Cameras everywhere. Someone should tell the broadcasters. (From Giro http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/they-came-we-saw-we-nailed-it-the-iconic-photos-of-irelands-giro-ditalia-2014/)

Ouija

I think some form of miniature camera integrated into the helmet would be better. Having them strapped to the bike doesn't give the most stable or easy to follow images as the bike gets thrown from side to side. Also give you some idea what the riders are looking at.

RichN95.

Ouija wrote:

I think some form of miniture camera integrated into the helmet would be better. Having them strapped to the bike doesn't give the most stable or easy to follow images as the bike gets thrown from side to side. Also give you some idea what the riders are looking at.

Have you seen how much some riders move their head during a sprint? Have a look at Boonen, EBH or Degenkolb himself for examples.

The_Boy

Can't say I'm getting the horn about on board cameras in the same way as many. As awesome as the Degenkolb footage is, it would add nothing to a live broadcast.

As far as sprints go, I wish they would do away with the head on camera shot. Either cut straight to the 'copter or have a side-on camera on rails like they do on Champs Elysee (though that only covers part of the straight.

ddraver

Crampeur wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7aH1bn6yUI&feature=youtu.be Degenkolb. Fantastic video.

That is AWESOME!!!

Wowsers

The shot of Tommeke giving it everything on his wheel is one of the best bits of cycling footage I ve ever seen

Macaloon

The_Boy wrote:

Can't say I'm getting the horn about on board cameras in the same way as many. As awesome as the Degenkolb footage is, it would add nothing to a live broadcast.

As far as sprints go, I wish they would do away with the head on camera shot. Either cut straight to the 'copter or have a side-on camera on rails like they do on Champs Elysee (though that only covers part of the straight.

"Things have settled down a little after that daredevil descent by Cunego, sorry Nibali. Final climb in 20km. Meantime lets take a look at Nibali's descent from the on-board camera and compare it to the Gruppetto."

(Collected by neutral service from his bar-mounted camera, and uploaded by nearest moto.

The_Boy

Macaloon wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

Can't say I'm getting the horn about on board cameras in the same way as many. As awesome as the Degenkolb footage is, it would add nothing to a live broadcast.

As far as sprints go, I wish they would do away with the head on camera shot. Either cut straight to the 'copter or have a side-on camera on rails like they do on Champs Elysee (though that only covers part of the straight.

"Things have settled down a little after that daredevil descent by Cunego, sorry Nibali. Final climb in 20km. Meantime lets take a look at Nibali's descent from the on-board camera and compare it to the Gruppetto."

(Collected by neutral service from his bar-mounted camera, and uploaded by nearest moto.

So are riders to be told to drop back to a production company moto, or will the moto be mixing it up in the group itself? And are we to be expected to sit through on board footage of descents during every single mountain stage? Cos that'll get tired pretty fucking quickly imo.

It's interesting to watch, but only because of the novelty value. And frankly, if you want to compare the descent of the leaders and the gruppetto, you'd probably be better doing it with a helicopter cam on each group and show the footage side by side in real time - that way you can compare their progress against various landmarks by the side of the road. They did this in rallying for what it's worth.

RichN95.

Macaloon wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

Can't say I'm getting the horn about on board cameras in the same way as many. As awesome as the Degenkolb footage is, it would add nothing to a live broadcast.

As far as sprints go, I wish they would do away with the head on camera shot. Either cut straight to the 'copter or have a side-on camera on rails like they do on Champs Elysee (though that only covers part of the straight.

"Things have settled down a little after that daredevil descent by Cunego, sorry Nibali. Final climb in 20km. Meantime lets take a look at Nibali's descent from the on-board camera and compare it to the Gruppetto."

(Collected by neutral service from his bar-mounted camera, and uploaded by nearest moto.

They'd be better off waiting, editing it together properly and using it in evening highlights and/or the next day's stage.

lancew

Surely the benefit would be from the rear facing cams to take a look at who's getting tired during the race etc?

That Degenkolb video was brilliant, but I think the best thing from it was:

a) Seeing him shout the order to go and seeing what he was seeing when that happened.
b) Seeing Cavendish circling the area like a shark, and reacting PERFECTLY to take the win. Watch the video at 0:50 and you can see him crank it up; brilliant.

I think that the moments before a key event and seeing what the riders are doing just before a sprint/breakaway, being absorbed into the group would be what I could like to see.

DeadCalm

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

Can't say I'm getting the horn about on board cameras in the same way as many. As awesome as the Degenkolb footage is, it would add nothing to a live broadcast.

As far as sprints go, I wish they would do away with the head on camera shot. Either cut straight to the 'copter or have a side-on camera on rails like they do on Champs Elysee (though that only covers part of the straight.

"Things have settled down a little after that daredevil descent by Cunego, sorry Nibali. Final climb in 20km. Meantime lets take a look at Nibali's descent from the on-board camera and compare it to the Gruppetto."

(Collected by neutral service from his bar-mounted camera, and uploaded by nearest moto.

They'd be better off waiting, editing it together properly and using it in evening highlights and/or the next day's stage.

Um, why? Macaloon's suggestion seems like an excellent use of such footage to me. And it's not as if the people doing this stuff aren't capable of editing on the fly.

RichN95.

DeadCalm wrote:

Um, why? Macaloon's suggestion seems like an excellent use of such footage to me. And it's not as if the people doing this stuff aren't capable of editing on the fly.

Because then they can do it properly (reviewing several sets of footage for the best) and not bother the riders - both sets of people have plenty to do already.
That Degenkolb film was only released a couple of days ago and already it's not good enough for some people.

markhewitt1978

marcusjb wrote:

It's a valid concern and I am sure the sprinters in particular will have lots to say about it. But if everyone ends up equipped with the same camera, then it should make little difference.

That's what happened in F1, there were complaints about some cars having to carry cameras and some not. So eventually they made it mandatory that all cars had to have a camera housing, even if there was no camera. I think these days all cars just have cameras as they are now so cheap.

RichN95.

marcusjb wrote:

It's a valid concern and I am sure the sprinters in particular will have lots to say about it. But if everyone ends up equipped with the same camera, then it should make little difference.

I reckon quite a few cameras will 'fall off' or plenty of riders will require a bike change

Paul 8v

It would be awesome for post race analysis. You know like other sports get, rather than cutting straight to world championship ping pong or whatever. :-)

Macaloon's idea of the camera with the gruppetto would be pretty awesome too.

DeadCalm

RichN95 wrote:

marcusjb wrote:

It's a valid concern and I am sure the sprinters in particular will have lots to say about it. But if everyone ends up equipped with the same camera, then it should make little difference.

I reckon quite a few cameras will 'fall off' or plenty of riders will require a bike change

Usually your contrariness is valid, well thought out and I can see your point. On this, you are just coming across as, well, contrary for the sake of it.

RichN95.

DeadCalm wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

marcusjb wrote:

It's a valid concern and I am sure the sprinters in particular will have lots to say about it. But if everyone ends up equipped with the same camera, then it should make little difference.

I reckon quite a few cameras will 'fall off' or plenty of riders will require a bike change

Usually your contrariness is valid, well thought out and I can see your point. On this, you are just coming across as, well, contrary for the sake of it.

No, it's because most of these ideas are pie in the sky and haven't remotely been thought through with regard to practicality or cost. Some people seem to take for granted how much work and infrastructure it takes to get the pictures we already have. Some of you are talking about shots which are going to cost six figures for maybe a minute's worth of interesting footage..

DeadCalm

RichN95 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

marcusjb wrote:

It's a valid concern and I am sure the sprinters in particular will have lots to say about it. But if everyone ends up equipped with the same camera, then it should make little difference.

I reckon quite a few cameras will 'fall off' or plenty of riders will require a bike change

Usually your contrariness is valid, well thought out and I can see your point. On this, you are just coming across as, well, contrary for the sake of it.

No, it's because most of these ideas are pie in the sky and haven't remotely been thought through with regard to practicality or cost. Some people seem to take for granted how much work and infrastructure it takes to get the pictures we already have. Some of you are talking about shots which are going to cost six figures for maybe a minute's worth of interesting footage..

I'm not saying it could happen tomorrow but to rubbish it as an idea is frankly contrary and lacking in imagination. In 1948 there were probably Luddites arguing that live tv coverage was impractical for very similar reasons.

Start small, put cameras and transmitters on a few bikes and dummies on the rest to ensure fairness. Pick up the footage as and when the 'live' bikes are near a receiver. Editors can go to town on the footage if there is anything worth showing. Refine the process. Before long Macaloon's scenario is common place.

ddraver

I don't reckon the on car footage in f1 or rallying adds anything to the commentary of the race either but i watch the lap of Monaco every year. Same with Graham Bell's view of the Downhill course.

It's not about adding stuff to the commentary of the race it's just about making it look cool to the average punter

above_the_cows

Paul 8v wrote:

It would be awesome for post race analysis. You know like other sports get, rather than cutting straight to world championship ping pong or whatever. :-)

Macaloon's idea of the camera with the gruppetto would be pretty awesome too.

I second this or is it third? Anyway I agree.

RichN95.

DeadCalm wrote:

I'm not saying it could happen tomorrow but to rubbish it as an idea is frankly contrary and lacking in imagination. In 1948 there were probably Luddites arguing that live tv coverage was impractical for very similar reasons.

Start small, put cameras and transmitters on a few bikes and dummies on the rest to ensure fairness. Pick up the footage as and when the 'live' bikes are near a receiver. Editors can go to town on the footage if there is anything worth showing. Refine the process. Before long Macaloon's scenario is common place.

First of all these cameras/transmitters. How big are they? The main ones they use in F1 are about the size of a bottle of wine ad weigh similar. They also use five or six cameras per car. The smaller ones are also too big for a bike. There are really small ones but their range is terrible. You'll be needing integrated GPS too.
Then there what you just call 'a receiver'. For the autobus that's the minimum of an extra helicopter, probably an extra plane too, and more satellite bandwidth.
And then what are you left with a comparison of descending between the leaders and the autobus about half an hour after the leaders have passed through and the leaders aren't pushing it that hard anyway which you can only show if there's a substantial lull in proceedings.
Massive outlay for something that you will be bored of in a few days. Everything is possible (drones will be the real game changers), but it costs. Are you willing to pay?

Or you could do it well on a small budget with some Go-Pros and the riders' co-operation but not have it broadcast ready for a couple of hours.

RoadPainter

Front looking cameras on a climb would be really cool - seeing the crowds part just in front of the riders on a packed mountain would probably be really good viewing.

Just capture it, work out when to broadcast it later. At the very least, use it in trailers for TV coverage of races.

Imagine what the backwards view from Swifty would've been like on Giro stage 3

Macaloon

RichN95 wrote:

No, it's because most of these ideas are pie in the sky and haven't remotely been thought through with regard to practicality or cost. Some people seem to take for granted how much work and infrastructure it takes to get the pictures we already have. Some of you are talking about shots which are going to cost six figures for maybe a minute's worth of interesting footage..

But some of the ideas, while clunky and prone to failure (in-flight collection of SSDs for subsequent upload from a moto), cost buttons. Even if this footage is only edited into the previous day highlights it will be worth it. And we won't find out what the most interesting and valuable shots are until we give it a try.

Edit - just noticed this is pretty much what you suggested.

RichN95.

Macaloon wrote:

Even if this footage is only edited into the previous day highlights it will be worth it.

That bit I agree with. Always have done. It's cheap and easy. And TV coverage does need to be more inventive.

It's the convoluted and expensive schemes that people are dreaming up because they want the footage now, not later, that I object to. It's just not practical or affordable unless you start selling the rights to the likes of Sky instead of Eurosport.

Plus if you put this stuff in highlights shows or the preamble to the next stage, you'll get people people tuning in for it.