Vuelta al País Vasco 2014 **Spoilers**

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  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    What is it with cycling, revisionists, and deniers? No discussion of surprising results is possible without a thoroughly selective rummage through the quotes archive.

    Feeding the media stories is playing the game of nourishing the PR machine, and reported quotes are not affadavits.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • gpreeves
    gpreeves Posts: 454
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Kennaugh has been touted as a future GC rider, I don't think that has just come from sensationalist journalists, in fact are the cycling press sensationalist anyway?

    Well who has then? If you think so can you tell me what he's done that elevates him above the many other talented young pros in the Pro Tour today?

    I've read it in plenty of places for quite a while. Try google I'm sure you'll come up with plenty of talk about him being a future GC man at grand tours. For example.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... s-eye.html

    I think that article is probably what DD means by sensationalist journalists. The Telegraph's coverage of cycling is (regrettably but understandably) very Brit-centric. I'd half-expect their Ronde report to be an article about Thomas finishing 8th and Wiggins 32nd, with two lines at the end mentioning that Canc won it.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Exactly that - think for yourself a bit - is what you re reading credible or not? Does it match with what you see other riders doing? etc etc...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    gpreeves wrote:
    I think that article is probably what DD means by sensationalist journalists. The Telegraph's coverage of cycling is (regrettably but understandably) very Brit-centric. I'd half-expect their Ronde report to be an article about Thomas finishing 8th and Wiggins 32nd, with two lines at the end mentioning that Canc won it.

    Oof.

    Which is where Kennaugh comes in. The tough young Manxman, with careful nurturing and guidance, is universally considered the most likely British rider to lead the next wave and as all mountaineers know, when you look to conquer the highest peaks it is often the second wave, not the original summit party, who make the final breakthrough.

    Then again, the Telegraph is only sound on the all-out war on fat cats, and the urgent necessity of doling-out colossal bonuses to retain top banking talent.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited April 2014
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Talking of a rider who's been up and down so far this season - Uran. Started the season well, but was well off the pace in T-A and Catalunya.

    Lefevere says Uran's ill with 'helicobacter pylori'. Now on antibiotics, sent back home to Colombia. No Ardennes for him. Dont know what this could mean for his Giro start.

    Gee that is not good. Would be a real shame to not see him in the Ardennes and Giro.
    I like Uran a lot and since reading the last piece on Cycling Inquisition on him that has gone up again.


    A great guy as well as a great rider.

    A quick google (dangerous step, I know) suggests that it can be treated by a week-long course of meds. But that's him off his training programme for a little while. It all seems to be a bit too close to the Giro for comfort.

    A LOT of stomach-related illnesses across the peloton over the last few weeks.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Bad batch of pineapple placebos.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    ddraver wrote:
    Exactly that - think for yourself a bit - is what you re reading credible or not? Does it match with what you see other riders doing? etc etc...

    Oh please, that is just one example, shall I link the one written by Fotheringham or is he credible? How about Shane Sutton?
    http://cyclist.com.au/profiles/qa-shane-sutton

    What about Dave Brailsford? http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/j ... france-sky

    I don't think you can seriously deny Kennaugh has been talked about as a future GC rider, you may think he isn't, fair enough, but if the team manager thinks he has the ability I think at 24 he should be pushed forwards a bit more. In fact that last link gives you a clue as to why he isn't - Sky are so strong in that department it suits them to use him as a super domestique and it suits BC to have him team pursuiting.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Well whatever, he's done nothing to me that suggests that he somehow "should" be racing every race in the world ever at full gas which was Ff's question which started this whole thing.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Paulie W
    Paulie W Posts: 1,492
    There's no doubt that Kennaugh whas been/is spoken about as a future grand tour contender. Whether he's deserving of this is another question.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Nice work DeVlae, knew I wasn't making it up.

    He is just another nondescript rider who will be turning him inside out for Froome on every mountain at the Tour.

    Racing now:
    Andy Schleck tried his luck in a breakaway but was caught.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Fernandez Ruben of Caja has a small lead. He won Tour de l'Avenir last year.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited April 2014
    No pro racer (corrected initial typo) at this level is 'nondescript'.

    Silly.

    Back to the race. Vichot (FDJ) is the latest to abandon.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Vichot DNF
    Contador is the Greatest
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Nice work DeVlae, knew I wasn't making it up.

    He is just another nondescript rider who will be turning him inside out for Froome on every mountain at the Tour.

    So actually you agree with me then...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    No pro racing at this level is 'nondescript'.

    Silly.

    Back to the race. Vichot (FDJ) is the latest to abandon.

    lacking distinctive or interesting features or characteristic

    So yeah, a rider can certainly fall into that category.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    ddraver wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Nice work DeVlae, knew I wasn't making it up.

    He is just another nondescript rider who will be turning him inside out for Froome on every mountain at the Tour.

    So actually you agree with me then...

    I think he is very good. Better than your average for sure. Maybe a future star? Who knows.
    The point is that he is touted as one but has done nothing much to deserve the tittle.
    Similar logic that I mentioned in my first post goes to just about every rider on that team.

    As an side, if Sky had bothered to work then maybe they could have got a win for their teammate Swift. You know Geraint would have put himself inside out to pull back Big Tone.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Vichot DNF

    Knee issues. Out to rest so as not to compromise the Ardennes.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,548
    Kennaugh is considered a future GC candidate because he came third in the Baby Giro back in 2009. Historically, that's been a pretty good indicator of future GC ability. He's yet to show whether he'll live up to this but he has at least won a stage race now, even if it was only a minor one in Italy.

    As for Sky working yesterday, who knows what decision the team made? Maybe Swift had seen the profile and thought the last climb might be too tough for him, or maybe he was saving himself for today? We don't know. Yet some continue to pour scorn on Sky based on conjecture. It's tiresome.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Well i think we broadly agree, i think it's just British Journo's getting over-excited. it's far from a cycling thing in the UK is it? (football, rugby etc). In fairness to brailsford if he gets asked if PK can win the tour it's a lot more unhelpful to say "Nah, no chance mate" than it is to spout something about numbers and maybes

    I think it's clear Sky ballsed up yesterday, I think they forgot Herr Martin was in the break
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    gpreeves wrote:
    The Telegraph's coverage of cycling is (regrettably but understandably) very Brit-centric. I'd half-expect their Ronde report to be an article about Thomas finishing 8th and Wiggins 32nd, with two lines at the end mentioning that Canc won it.

    I'm definately not in the Torygraph readership demographic, but of the UK papers it has by far the best coverage of cycling (admittedly against a very little competition).
  • Give me more
    Give me more Posts: 487
    Goodness me Andy Schleck tried to get into a break.

    Current status is just Ruben Fernandez out on his own about 7 1/2 minutes away from the peloton
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    andyp wrote:
    Kennaugh is considered a future GC candidate because he came third in the Baby Giro back in 2009. Historically, that's been a pretty good indicator of future GC ability. He's yet to show whether he'll live up to this but he has at least won a stage race now, even if it was only a minor one in Italy.

    As for Sky working yesterday, who knows what decision the team made? Maybe Swift had seen the profile and thought the last climb might be too tough for him, or maybe he was saving himself for today? We don't know. Yet some continue to pour scorn on Sky based on conjecture. It's tiresome.

    If Sky competed more or less like other teams, were in line with other team's thinking and didnt keep themselves aloof then they would get different treatment.
    Sky think they are better than any other team and Sky have more money than other team.
    Therefore they need to perform better than every other team. Theoretically they should at least try to crush the season from start to finish. If they don't then they have failed to live up to what they should.
    When you have a safe job you don't work very hard.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Give me more wrote:
    Goodness me Andy Schleck tried to get into a break.

    Current status is just Ruben Fernandez out on his own about 7 1/2 minutes away from the peloton

    Nice margin. Going to be hard to sustain it. For a winner of the Tour de l'avenir his results so far this year have not been the best. Early days though.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    I think that's you putting some stuff on Sky. I'm not sure that's entirely true (anymore)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    frenchfighter wrote:
    .....Sky think they are better than any other team and Sky have more money than other team.

    You say that and yet the figures published a couple of years back suggest it isn't true. I don't know if things have changed but there certainly were others who had more money. Do they really think they are better than any other team? They've introduced new ideas that others scorned then copied and their PR stuff can be OTT but ultimately they have a sponsor and so want to get them publicity - in the cynical, real world that is what cycling is all about rather than glorious solo breaks through the mountain.
  • Give me more
    Give me more Posts: 487
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Give me more wrote:
    Goodness me Andy Schleck tried to get into a break.

    Current status is just Ruben Fernandez out on his own about 7 1/2 minutes away from the peloton

    Nice margin. Going to be hard to sustain it. For a winner of the Tour de l'avenir his results so far this year have not been the best. Early days though.

    No way he stays out. The sprinters are salivating at actually getting a look in! A nice reminder of his existence though...
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Pross wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    .....Sky think they are better than any other team and Sky have more money than other team.

    You say that and yet the figures published a couple of years back suggest it isn't true. I don't know if things have changed but there certainly were others who had more money. Do they really think they are better than any other team? They've introduced new ideas that others scorned then copied and their PR stuff can be OTT but ultimately they have a sponsor and so want to get them publicity - in the cynical, real world that is what cycling is all about rather than glorious solo breaks through the mountain.


    How many times, Frenchie? AST and BMC are reported to have the highest budgets, with Sky are reckoned to be in 3rd place on the ProTour budget league table, having been 5th or 6th a couple of years ago (and having to increase salary budgets cos of their two Tour winners). KAT and OPQS are close behind. And Tinkov is upping the ante for Tinkoff.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Live on ES2 now, not ES.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,548
    It's ironic isn't it - on the one hand it's fair game to criticise the UK media for focusing too much on national interests, yet at the same time calling out the only UK World Tour team for not being good enough, when there are teams with equally large budgets under performing year in, year out.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Here is one place to start:
    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=46 ... #msg127432
    Worth noting that I am not sure how accurate this is. Inrng, who is more credible, has Sky 2012 at 24.5m. You can be pretty sure current figures will be higher.
    http://inrng.com/2013/10/finances-team-sky-accounts/

    The latest figure I saw for Sky was 26.5m (2013)
    BMC and state funded Katusha and Astana are somewhat close but I suspect still several million lower. Even if they have more it doesnt matter much.
    They have a tremendous amount of money compared to other teams and compared to history.
    Contador is the Greatest

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