The Hour *** spoilers ***

DeVlaeminck

Sadly it wont be at Derby unless that track is very fast - he'd be mad to do it at a track which wasn't the fastest he could find - be nice to be proven wrong on that though.

I'd be quite interested in the physics of why track speed isn't as fast as a flat road speed too.

Daz555

There could be a dozen reasons why many long TTs on the road are faster than the hour when it comes to average speed. Obvious ones like Millar's 54.4km/h at the 2003 TdF are simply because it was blowing hard from behind all day long.

A road TT could easily also be downhill when you add up all the ups and downs.

The banked corners are also very draining on the rider - over 50km/h around those corners for a solid hour - the stress on the body is immense even reducing efficiency due to reduced blood circulation.

dsoutar

Pross wrote:

Can someone explain to me the physics that mean the average speed for an hour on the track is lower than it is for a 50 mile TT on the road?

What records are you looking at ?

Boardman's hour record is 56km and at that speed you'd be 3 minutes inside Hutchinson's British 25 mile record (a much shorter distance) and faster again than Hutchinson's 50 mile TT pace

I think the fastest TdF TT pace (excluding prologues) was Lemond's which was around 54kmh and a much shorter distance than the hour

TheBigBean

I think if you are looking at comparable road perforances you need to look at the TTs which are circular. This usually means the worlds and the olympic ones. Tony Martin in Copenhagen and Wiggins in London were extremely fast, but still slower than Boardman.

Pross

dsoutar wrote:

Pross wrote:

Can someone explain to me the physics that mean the average speed for an hour on the track is lower than it is for a 50 mile TT on the road?

What records are you looking at ?

Boardman's hour record is 56km and at that speed you'd be 3 minutes inside Hutchinson's British 25 mile record (a much shorter distance) and faster again than Hutchinson's 50 mile TT pace

I think the fastest TdF TT pace (excluding prologues) was Lemond's which was around 54kmh and a much shorter distance than the hour

Was that record in an accepted position? I think I'm getting my 'sportsman' distance muddled with the full on record.

poppit

Pokerface wrote:

poppit wrote:

Derby will be relatively fast, as most new tracks are, and we can crank the heat up if required. There's probably tracks with a better geometry as being fast wasn't the number 1 priority at design stage, being easy to ride was. Would be nice to have Wiggins attempting the record plus a para attempt at a launch event though.

If you get Wiggins to attempt it there I will too!

You're on.

I'm not sure what makes a good venue though, Boardeaux and Manchester feature quite a bit in hour records so perhaps altitude isn't so important, breathing the thin air at altitude can't be easy when at 100%.

ddraver

These new laws (which I ve only just read about :oops: ) Have got to have massively handed the advantage to Sir Wiggo now no?

hammerite

Pross wrote:

Can someone explain to me the physics that mean the average speed for an hour on the track is lower than it is for a 50 mile TT on the road? I know that the drag from traffic on the road helps a fair bit but I would have thought the affects of even gentle gradients and wind would offset that whereas on the track it's flat, no wind and no junctions to negotiate. For some reason for the best cyclists of their day to be averaging just over 30mph always seems slower than I would expect given the amount of decent amateur cyclists that can do similar on a 25.

These are by no means an answer to your question, but some ideas as to the possible differences in ave speed - marginal gains and all that... Could also be complete bunkum.

*A 50 miler takes approx 95 mins as opposed to 60 mins for the hour (no sh** Sherlock :oops: ), so you have a little bit longer to offset the first 30-60 seconds while getting up to speed. Not a huge difference but still possible.

*You can ride a road TT on a geared bike with a free wheel. Might help the legs one way or another.

*Track riding is flat, where as there might be some undulations on the road. The very slight changes in gradient even on a flat course may give the legs some kind of rest for the odd tenth of a second.

Yellow Peril

ddraver wrote:

These new laws (which I ve only just read about :oops: ) Have got to have massively handed the advantage to Sir Wiggo now no?

Keep up mate!

Yes I believe so. He has so much more track experience and is familiar with that type of machine. If I was Sir Dave I'd be looking to park Wiggo after the TdF and to go for this. Sky would love it queue montage of Obree and Boardman in the documentary and in depth interviews with the Cannibal as to what it takes etc.

hammerite

Yellow Peril wrote:

ddraver wrote:

These new laws (which I ve only just read about :oops: ) Have got to have massively handed the advantage to Sir Wiggo now no?

Keep up mate!

Yes I believe so. He has so much more track experience and is familiar with that type of machine. If I was Sir Dave I'd be looking to park Wiggo after the TdF and to go for this. Sky would love it queue montage of Obree and Boardman in the documentary and in depth interviews with the Cannibal as to what it takes etc.

World TT first then Hour record?

kamil1891

Track riding is not flat. Correct me if I've spent hundreds of hours riding rounds and being so wrong.

hammerite

kamil1891 wrote:

Track riding is not flat. Correct me if I've spent hundreds of hours riding rounds and being so wrong.

They tend not to ride up the banking in hour attempts though.

kamil1891

hammerite wrote:

kamil1891 wrote:

Track riding is not flat. Correct me if I've spent hundreds of hours riding rounds and being so wrong.

They tend not to ride up the banking in hour attempts though.

I know, but even the black is not 100% flat or is it?

jscl

kamil1891 wrote:

hammerite wrote:

kamil1891 wrote:

Track riding is not flat. Correct me if I've spent hundreds of hours riding rounds and being so wrong.

They tend not to ride up the banking in hour attempts though.

I know, but even the black is not 100% flat or is it?

It isn't, nor is the Côte d'Azur. But if you can sit comfortably around the black or in the small gap between the black and Côte for an hour, there's benefits to be had.

RoadPainter

Surely Wiggins would do it in Manchester or London to maximise publicity & therefore money? I know it's not just about that for him, but it will be for people who are running it. Expect the return of mass Wiggo-mania if he went for this

Paul 8v

In all seriousness, I would bloomin' love to see Pokerface do this!

Pokerface

The thing that makes track riding so difficult, particularly over the hour, is the one gear you have to work with. On the road you can change gears and to some extent give your legs a break (even if just for a few seconds). You can change cadence, use the road (downhill) or winds to get a break.

On the track there is no respite. You can't sit up and take a drink. You have to maintain the same cadence for virtually the entire time. If you let it slip, it requires a big effort to get it back.

On top of all this, you have to try and follow the black line (which is a balancing act in itself) the entire time. And going around in a circle (even for 4-5 mins) can get quite dizzying. To do it for an hour must be excruciating.

It's when it takes so much out of you but a good TT rider can do a 25 or 50 mile TT every week.

Pokerface

kamil1891 wrote:

hammerite wrote:

kamil1891 wrote:

Track riding is not flat. Correct me if I've spent hundreds of hours riding rounds and being so wrong.

They tend not to ride up the banking in hour attempts though.

I know, but even the black is not 100% flat or is it?

If you stay on the black (or blue or any line), then it IS flat. It drop off to the side of you, but in front of your wheel it is always flat.

But even the best rider never precisely follows the black line so in a sense you are constantly riding up and down the track in micro amounts.

As for altitude - it makes a HUGE difference. If you acclimatise properly, you can deal with breathing in the thin air. Altitude and heat will make for the fastest tracks in the world. More so than heat alone can do.

Pross

Pokerface wrote:

If you stay on the black (or blue or any line), then it IS flat. It drop off to the side of you, but in front of your wheel it is always flat.

Thanks for that, I thought I was going mad for a minute. The line is a consistent level above the flat ground so therefore it's flat.

DeVlaeminck

Not a track rider but am I right in thinking the black line is still banked to some extent ? In which case wont there be a centripetal force (a push force from the track) which maybe causes an increase in the drag compared to a flat road where presumably drag is just down to gravity ? This probably gives away the fact I took Biology and Chemistry at O level but not Physics !

Pokerface

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Not a track rider but am I right in thinking the black line is still banked to some extent ? In which case wont there be a centripetal force (a push force from the track) which maybe causes an increase in the drag compared to a flat road where presumably drag is just down to gravity ? This probably gives away the fact I took Biology and Chemistry at O level but not Physics !

The part of the track where the black line sits is banked. The line itself is not.

As you go round the corner, there are forces at work usually pushing you up the track (if going fast enough), otherwise dragging you down!

One way to look at it is - if you follow the black line perfectly, there is no elevation change whatsoever. Obviously there are other forces at work pushing/pulling at various points on the track.

I actually find riding through the corners easier than on the straights. There is a slingshot effect in the corners that seems to give you a bit of a break.

DeVlaeminck

Pokerface wrote:

The part of the track where the black line sits is banked. The line itself is not.

So if it's banked the question is how do those forces - centripetal, centrofugal or whatever they are - affect the cyclist - do they require some energy input to overcome ?

Pross

The banking is there to assist the centripetal forces allowing you to turn a corner at a higher speed. Without them you wouldn't generate enough force to make the turn and would go straight so they should be helpful forces. You barely need to steer on a track as a result.

Daz555

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

The part of the track where the black line sits is banked. The line itself is not.

So if it's banked the question is how do those forces - centripetal, centrofugal or whatever they are - affect the cyclist - do they require some energy input to overcome ?

They put strain on the body (resisting the pull on your head and upper body) and also the forces involved impact your circulatory system - forcing blood into your lower extremities.

Pokerface

Daz555 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

The part of the track where the black line sits is banked. The line itself is not.

So if it's banked the question is how do those forces - centripetal, centrofugal or whatever they are - affect the cyclist - do they require some energy input to overcome ?

They put strain on the body (resisting the pull on your head and upper body) and also the forces involved impact your circulatory system - forcing blood into your lower extremities.

I think that's called 'gravity'.

graeme_s-2

Pokerface wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

The part of the track where the black line sits is banked. The line itself is not.

So if it's banked the question is how do those forces - centripetal, centrofugal or whatever they are - affect the cyclist - do they require some energy input to overcome ?

They put strain on the body (resisting the pull on your head and upper body) and also the forces involved impact your circulatory system - forcing blood into your lower extremities.

I think that's called 'gravity'.

Right, but a cyclist riding through the curve on a banked track will have a force greater than just gravity acting upon them and their heart will have to overcome this too.

DeVlaeminck

Pross wrote:

The banking is there to assist the centripetal forces allowing you to turn a corner at a higher speed. Without them you wouldn't generate enough force to make the turn and would go straight so they should be helpful forces. You barely need to steer on a track as a result.

Yes I realise the track is banked to allow people to get round the corners at speed. I was posing a question whether the forces involved slow the bike/impose a cost in terms of power to maintain speed and explain why track records are slower than we might expect.

knedlicky

Cancellara said in an interview with a Swiss newspaper on Saturday 31 May, that (like Wiggins has similarly said), his interest in The Hour went down with news of the proposed UCI changes, because if he attempted it, Cancellara wanted to be compared to Merckx in 1972.
He also said, contrary to some media reports, The Hour wasn’t something he was contemplating for this coming August, because if that were the case, he’d have to have started track training by now, more or less following on from the Classics, which he hasn’t.

He also said that in the Classics this year, he really feared being dropped, as the grandad (his term) amongst contenders, and that he would definitely retire at the end of the 2016 season.

rick_chasey

Definitely wasn't as strong as he has been in previous years. Used his nous - which is not something you can always say about Cancellara.

cp_rider

I agree with cancellara that the real interest in the hour, and for him the reason to do it, was that it would test him against some of the greats of the past... Rather than saying, I'm 10km/h quicker than Merckx... On an aero specific bike made with modern technologies.

However I don't understand how trek have been 'developing' a bike like Merckx's which sounds like it's taken a lot of time... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing incredibly technical would have had to go into that build, no?

Anyway, I which they'd kept the hour record, Merckx's record as the one to beat and you have to ride a bike like Merckx's, but that's just me.