Wattage Targets

Borderland

okgo wrote:

I can tell you right now what it will be. You don't see 93kg road racers, ever I'm usually one of the biggest in an e123 at 76-78kg.

OkGo on then... see what I did there?

JamesFree

At Hillingdon weight doesn't come into it at all really but at that weight you won't be competitive at anything other than pan flat circuits. Though if your wattbike power is correct you should have absolutely no problems with the pace and should be able to ride away from a 3/4 field in a break or even solo. I'm fairly competitive at Hillingdon on a hell of a lot less power than that.

jibberjim

okgo wrote:

I can tell you right now what it will be. You don't see 93kg road racers, ever I'm usually one of the biggest in an e123 at 76-78kg.

Except of course your club mate, who was much more successful than you at Hillingdon and weighed over 90kg... I'd back him over you at Hillingdon for sure (assuming he was vaguely fit, which he virtually never was but he was still winning Hillingdon then)

okgo

Borderland - how did you go?

Also what kit/bike were you on?

Borderland

Hi mate I punctured on Thursday and turned out my wheel buckled too so I was a bit stuffed for last weekend which is a damn shame. Struggling to find another free weekend/race nearby on the British Cycling site - surely it doesn't cover all events I thought there were weeknight races at Hillingdon also? On the watts side did a 10 minute flat out just shy of 450W and did a 14 minute ramp up to 460W, just haven't got the time over lunch to do a big session at the office. Any other sessions I can try? 20 minute test is now 401W at 93KG, any training sessions based on a % of that would be useful.

Tom Dean

It might be worth investing in a spoke key and learning how to true a wheel if something like that is putting you out of action for four days. (assuming you were able to fix the puncture :P)

imposter2.0

Tom Dean wrote:

It might be worth investing in a spoke key and learning how to true a wheel if something like that is putting you out of action for four days. (assuming you were able to fix the puncture :P)

Indeed. Or just swap wheels (everyone has spare wheels, don't they?)

okgo

Tbh at 93kg and with that power you're going to need a freindly wheel builder and you'll be buckling things left right and center

Yes, every race is on the BC site, you just have to be careful with what they're called. Hillingdon on Tuesday night is usually called BC THames West or something similar. They are entry online and kick off just after 7 I think. I can't get there in time from work usually. The other option is Crystal Palace which is entry via Rider HQ which is on Tuesdays at the same time, and is only about 8 miles from Central, so easier to get to perhaps.

bigmat

I wouldn't fancy lugging 93kg up that hill 35 times at Palace - 83 is bad enough...

okgo

True, but if you've the power to compensate, short inclines like that are not such an issue. Hog Hill would hurt for sure.

Borderland

Anyone else have issues logging in on chrome? Seems to redirect me to some new format of the site so I can't reply.

Anyway I found the Hillingdon weeknight races and actually for me to get there from Marylebone is fairly simple as I can just bomb down through notting hill and get on the uxbridge road from shepherd's bush. Might be a long warm-up but such is life I'm sure most will have done the same. Quick question. If the CAT 3/4 is starting just one minute behind the E/1/2/3 race what happens in terms of catching them. Are you morally obliged to move through? On the flipside what happens if the two packs converge with the E/1/2/3 catching the 3/4 later on?

Sorry to bombard but the less things I am thinking about during the race the more I can concentrate on riding safely. Cheers.

paul2718

You won't catch the E123. When they lap you the two races should keep separated, and it's frowned* upon to take advantage of the other race. So if you were to catch them you would need to move through, and when they come past you don't jump on their wheels.

Paul

*Possibly to the point of disqualification.

maryka

Borderland wrote:

Anyone else have issues logging in on chrome? Seems to redirect me to some new format of the site so I can't reply.

Anyway I found the Hillingdon weeknight races and actually for me to get there from Marylebone is fairly simple as I can just bomb down through notting hill and get on the uxbridge road from shepherd's bush. Might be a long warm-up but such is life I'm sure most will have done the same. Quick question. If the CAT 3/4 is starting just one minute behind the E/1/2/3 race what happens in terms of catching them. Are you morally obliged to move through? On the flipside what happens if the two packs converge with the E/1/2/3 catching the 3/4 later on?

Sorry to bombard but the less things I am thinking about during the race the more I can concentrate on riding safely. Cheers.

The 3/4 will not catch the E/1/2.

If the E/1/2 catches the 3/4, then the race being caught needs to self-neutralise (i.e., sit up enough and stay to one side to let the other race pass through). If you jump in the middle or get in the way or jump on the back you risk being disqualified not to mention showing yourself as a complete chopper who's in his first race.

Also note that there's no BC points for the 3/4 race, only money to be won. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it means the people who show up are there to train, try out new stuff, get back into racing after time out, or just give it a go -- in other words, NOT the kinds of people who will sprint desperately for a single BC point from 20th wheel. So in theory safer and more sensible and less dodgy. It should give you a good idea of how strong you are vs 3/4s, and if you do all right there, then definitely step up to races with BC points.

Edit: if you go off the front of the 3/4 and catch the E/1/2 you should probably just sit 30m off the back of them and cruise to victory. And then enter some proper races.

barry_kellett99

JamesFree wrote:

Though if your wattbike power is correct you should have absolutely no problems with the pace and should be able to ride away from a 3/4 field in a break or even solo.

If the numbers are accurate (93kg and 401w 20 min power) - would that not give him a w/kg of 4.3 for his 20 min power and closer to 4.1 for his probably FTP?
I'm no regular road racer, just do the occasional open race over here on lumpy terrain, but is that enough to really get away in these races on closed circuits? Are they really THAT flat? Is that sort of W/Kg figure enough to power off??

Not picking holes, just generally curious!

jibberjim

barry_kellett99 wrote:

but is that enough to really get away in these races on closed circuits? Are they really THAT flat? Is that sort of W/Kg figure enough to power off??

Remember speed is not about w/kg but w/CdA, and big people scale differently. Assuming he's pretty aerodynamic and can get a gap to start with, it's possible that a bunch could let him go. There will certainly enough strength in the bunch to pull such a rider back, but a 4th cat race would probably never be organised etc. There are plenty of cases here riders win solo.

There are also plenty of people at Hillingdon with nearer 3 w/kg FTP's who can generally not get dropped...

JamesFree

Outright power is more important at Hillingdon (as its pan flat) and generally for most SE racing than w/kg, w/kg only comes in to play when there are some hills/climbs involved.

With regards to catching the E123 race I personally have never seen it,I think the last 2 Tuesdays I have done at Hillingdon we have past the 3/4 race 3 times each race.

weadmire

JamesFree,
I've seen 3/4s catch E1/2's. My old club Southborough put on races at Brands Hatch. Fabulous surface. One windy and rainy evening a 4 up breakaway from the 3/4's were catching the E1/2's at a faster rate than said E1/2's were catching the 3/4's.

One of the breakaways was a tester called Tadros riding on a day licence so classed as a 4th. He wanted a sharpener a week or so ahead of the National 25. I think his PB was a long 50. Two of the others were also quite distinguished. After the race I heard one of them being referred to as a bandit, he was apparently returning to racing after a layoff. Then there was my son, naturally I'd say it was a matter of the right DNA.

The breakaway caught the back of the E1/2's as they caught the back of the 3/4's. The fact the E1/2's were effectively a lap behind caused the toys to fly out of the pram. Certainly there was a fair bit of moody. The four paused briefly as things disintegrated round them and then continued. They divided the spoils among themselves. My son might have gone from a 4th cat borderline 3rd cat straight through to a 2nd without without actually troubling the 3rd cat scorers. There were plenty of points involved, the race was quite long, there was a big field.

Borderland,
With regard to wheels look no further than Harry Rowland. I have never put one of his out of shape without hitting or being hit. I ride 36 rear 32 front but I have several pairs one of which is 32/32 and the same applies. I am sitting at about 97kg presently but 18 months ago I was 112kg and riding over the sh*te roads of London every day. I've got a spoke key, somewhere. By the standards of factory wheels Harry R isn't even expensive.

Tom Dean

Crap by your standards maybe. You only won by 2 minutes?! No way was your FTP under 300W.

maryka

madasahattersley wrote:

barry_kellett99 wrote:

JamesFree wrote:

Though if your wattbike power is correct you should have absolutely no problems with the pace and should be able to ride away from a 3/4 field in a break or even solo.

If the numbers are accurate (93kg and 401w 20 min power) - would that not give him a w/kg of 4.3 for his 20 min power and closer to 4.1 for his probably FTP?
I'm no regular road racer, just do the occasional open race over here on lumpy terrain, but is that enough to really get away in these races on closed circuits? Are they really THAT flat? Is that sort of W/Kg figure enough to power off??

Not picking holes, just generally curious!

Yes it is. In my first senior 3/4 race @ Hog Hill as a junior I won on my own by 2 minutes and I was cr@p. Probably under 300w at 79kg back then.

And conversely, I have 4.5w/kg on flat ground and there's no way I could solo off the front of a women's bunch, let alone a men's race of any category. Hillingdon is all about absolute watts unless you either can't hold a wheel or deal with the surges, in which case high watts still might see you dropped.

Tom Dean

madasahattersley wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

Crap by your standards maybe. You only won by 2 minutes?! No way was your FTP under 300W.

Pretty sure it was! Did an FTP test at the end of that year when I got my power meter and it was something like 310, and that race was in March.

You got extremely lucky in that case. That is not a normal result off those figures.
edit: (I wish...)

DavidJB

Tom Dean wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

Crap by your standards maybe. You only won by 2 minutes?! No way was your FTP under 300W.

Pretty sure it was! Did an FTP test at the end of that year when I got my power meter and it was something like 310, and that race was in March.

You got extremely lucky in that case. That is not a normal result off those figures.
edit: (I wish...)

Yeah did the bunch stop for a cake?

JamesFree

I have done 2/3's and 3/4's there that haven't needed much more than 200watts avg to be near the front. In the 3/4 there is generally just 1 big effort for the hill and then a cruise around for the rest of the lap so can easily see why people get away with a constant steady effort there.

JamesFree

I have done 2/3's and 3/4's there that haven't needed much more than 200watts avg to be near the front. In the 3/4 there is generally just 1 big effort for the hill and then a cruise around for the rest of the lap so can easily see why people get away with a constant steady effort there.

Tom Dean

As a regular at HH, I have never seen anyone get that much time over the 3rd cat bunch, let alone from a break already up the road. You can put it down to luck, tactics, or your having more power than you are guessing you had. I think a combination of all three is most likely.

If it's not about power why is it obviously a different ball game at 2nd cat?

To be fair I think the standard at HH has gone up in the last couple of years, and my positioning is never the best, but the gulf between what I am doing at basically the same FTP and weight, and finishing solo by two minutes just doesn't add up.

I'll stick my neck out and say that to get round the 2/3 races on 200W you will need to weigh less than 79kg!

Tom Dean

I certainly wasn't suggesting that winning races with these kind of numbers was impossible - I wouldn't be racing if I believed that!