Wattage Targets

sloppyschleckonds

Borderland wrote:

I've got Oprah on my side.

You don't need anymore weight.

ju5t1n

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Well, you need to put the time and the races...

You have to start as a cat. 4 and need to get 10 points to get to cat 3... that's easy...

It's 12 now

thomasmorris

Look at the Coggan power charts for rough targets. As said before you'll roughly want about 5 W/kg.

However, even with that, you might not make it to 1st cat, or you could make it a lot further, all depending on your power curve and racing skill.

At all levels you'll need a decent threshold to stay with the bunch through the race. From 4th to 3rd most pick up those points in sprints at crits, and therefore, assuming you make it to the end of the race (decent ftp), pure 10 sec and 1 minute power is what will see you collect points (not so much W/kg). So there is a possibility, even with a very ood ftp, if you can't lay down a sprint you may never make it beyond 4th cat.

Going to 2nd and especially 1st cat, as well as a stepping up your ftp to keep with the bunch, you'll often find the finish is on a short hill, or has hills in the course, so 5 minute w/kg will become more important.

For crits it's really you all out power which counts, for road racing with hills power to weight becomes more important.

The mix of using different energy systems and honing your race strategy to suit your strengths is what makes road racing interesting. The better your race skill, the lower number you can get away with. So boiling it down to a pure number kind of misses the point.

However, if you just want a number to aim for, just to give you a feel of what standard you're roughly at, then the Coggan table is a close as anyone can give.

ugo.santalucia

Thanks for correcting my numbers... but yes, the point is that climbing categories gets exponentially more difficult.

Borderland

OK cheers chaps, I get the picture, gives me a target of 5w/kg to kick things off and then I will get racing. Did another 20 min this AM all out and hit 384 average, so I am 10 kilos and 66 watts off 5w/kg. In other words a long way to go to even consider being competitive.

imposter2.0

I'm still not sure you're getting it, tbh. Racing is very much a 'real world' activity - not a virtual one. You could hit 5w/kg virtually and then still get dropped in your first race.

As others (including myself) have already said - the best way to get good at racing, is by racing. In your situation, I would switch off the power meter and just pin a number on. Race because you want to race - not because you want some arbitrary '1st cat' bragging rights. If you've got the aptitude, you'll get there anyway - and power numbers, in themselves, are no guarantee of that.

Borderland

Yeah I appreciate that Imposter. I'm not racing yet because I have a lot on my plate, so I figure I can at least get my numbers in line now and start racing in the summer. I've tried to iterate this several times - I'm looking for a number because I don't have the time at the moment to be out on the road.

ugo.santalucia

Borderland wrote:

Yeah I appreciate that Imposter. I'm not racing yet because I have a lot on my plate, so I figure I can at least get my numbers in line now and start racing in the summer. I've tried to iterate this several times - I'm looking for a number because I don't have the time at the moment to be out on the road.

Consider time trials... numbers do matter there and at your size you are more likely to be successful there. If you can lap RIchmond Park in 15-16 minutes, you are likely to do well in a 10 miles TT. There is even a TT in Richmond Park in summer, the course is published and you can test yourself and see how you fare against the fast guys... 24 minutes is good going for that

Borderland

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Borderland wrote:

Yeah I appreciate that Imposter. I'm not racing yet because I have a lot on my plate, so I figure I can at least get my numbers in line now and start racing in the summer. I've tried to iterate this several times - I'm looking for a number because I don't have the time at the moment to be out on the road.

Consider time trials... numbers do matter there and at your size you are more likely to be successful there. If you can lap RIchmond Park in 15-16 minutes, you are likely to do well in a 10 miles TT. There is even a TT in Richmond Park in summer, the course is published and you can test yourself and see how you fare against the fast guys... 24 minutes is good going for that

Thanks this sounds like a good way to go, Richmond Park is convenient for me and although 15-16 minutes I definitely couldn't do off the bat it is a great target for the summer. Much appreciated.

TakeTurns

I'm a 3rdcat, on my way to 2nd going into my second year cycling. Being tall and powerful does play a huge advantage on the field if you use it right. At your weight you also need to choose your course wisely. I'd recommend you train your anaerobic capacity up towards your V02max. Your FTP is already good enough to be able to 'hang in there'. If you have a good punch, and play your cards right you could win races.

Since you asked for numbers and we're relatively the same build, here's mine

I'm 6ft 7, 92kg.
My 20min is 430.
5min is 475
1min 708
30sec 1005
10sec 1315
max 1554

lc1981

Borderland wrote:

OK cheers chaps, I get the picture, gives me a target of 5w/kg to kick things off and then I will get racing. Did another 20 min this AM all out and hit 384 average, so I am 10 kilos and 66 watts off 5w/kg. In other words a long way to go to even consider being competitive.

Sorry I if I've misunderstood, but you don't need an FTP of 5w/kg before you start racing at 4th cat! The Coggan chart suggests that puts you at Cat II in the American system with that kind of FTP.

Just give it a go. If you get dropped, so be it. You can then use the power data to try to work out why, and what you need to work on to get better,

TheHound

This forum is full of dicks sometimes.

All the guy is asking for is info on what sort of wattage cat1 riders push out on average and climbs and sprints and stuff.

He's not saying he's going to enter a race next week. Just what sort of gap in performance there is between himself and cat1 racers.

Personally I have no experience with any of this but thought I should weigh in on OP's behalf.

bigmat

He was asking about 1st cat though. In any event its all very rough. I suggested 4w/kg but even then, that's a lot of power if you're on a flattish course. Too many variables to be honest.

Re Richmond Park, if you can do a 15 minute lap / 24 minutes for the time trial on a road bike then you probably would have the legs to race at 1st cat! I'd say 19 minutes would be a reasonable target for starters.

philbar72

The numbers aren’t everything: you definitely don’t need those numbers to be successful at lower cat level. It is far more about racecraft.

An average cat 4 race around somewhere like Hillingdon goes like this.

1 start lap, usually starts briskly, but not too hard. A few fatties fall off the back, blowing up as the pace gets too hard for them.
2 laps 2-4 still moderately brisk, few more off the back.
3 middle section of the race. A break or 2 goes off the front, usually get reeled in. some (if there are 4 +) make it stick if they get 20 seconds on the group. Pace on these laps feels pretty easy to most relatively fit people. Its as if the race actually slows up (and it often does).
4 last 5 laps , ramp up in speed and jostling for position. Occasional off road incident/ crash. Peloton splits with all the people that cannot ramp up the pace falling off the back.
5 last lap. Mad panic, top 10 places in the peloton become like gold dust, sprint, crashes.

A common thing as well is the shoddiness of bike handling. There are some real “choppers” or bad bike handlers out there. That’s not just 4’s but can be 3’s as well. I’ve seen crashes at Hillingdon and Preston park and longcross that could easily be avoided.

Hope that hasn’t put you off. in reality if you have your wits about you and have a kick, or a sprint you’ll be ok round the crit circuits. I can’t see you doing anything on a place like hog hill, you’d get destroyed on the climb by smaller lighter people despite your power numbers.

I think if possible a look at your diet and losing weight may be a good thing to try for. Get a BC license and try for some crits on a flat circuit (Preston park would be a good bet to start off with). Let us know how you get on.

For info my most successful (sic) cat 4 race was one where I put out less than one of my least successful. 285 watts for an hour average with a peak of 1360, against 315 watts, peak 1285.

The first race I broke off the front 5 times trying to get others to work with me, and led 5 laps of the race solo (except the all important last lap!). the second was just a faster race, and I came nowhere. I’m about 5 feet 9 and 74kg just to put things into perspective.


any how good luck and let us know how you get on.

philbar72

TheHound wrote:

This forum is full of dicks sometimes.

All the guy is asking for is info on what sort of wattage cat1 riders push out on average and climbs and sprints and stuff.

He's not saying he's going to enter a race next week. Just what sort of gap in performance there is between himself and cat1 racers.

Personally I have no experience with any of this but thought I should weigh in on OP's behalf.

if you've got no experience why call people names?, that doesn't add up. I get what you are saying, but people are advising based on their experiences.

ugo.santalucia

BigMat wrote:

I'd say 19 minutes would be a reasonable target for starters.

C'mon even a fart like me can do 19 minutes... I don't think my threshold power exceeds 280 W

bigmat

And I'm sure you'd be fine racing! OK, maybe 18 minutes. Then again, I'm talking about pace (usually over 3 laps) rather than what I could achieve for a single flying lap. Never tried that - I reckon 16 minutes would be about my limit though.

There's some useful information here:

http://www.slidingseat.net/cycling/cycling.html

to bring things kind of back on topic.

ugo.santalucia

BigMat wrote:

And I'm sure you'd be fine racing! OK, maybe 18 minutes. Then again, I'm talking about pace (usually over 3 laps) rather than what I could achieve for a single flying lap. Never tried that - I reckon 16 minutes would be about my limit though.

There's some useful information here:

http://www.slidingseat.net/cycling/cycling.html

to bring things kind of back on topic.

Sure, as a cat. 4, I'd be bang on in the middle of the bunch...

16 minutes, yes, if the OP wants to be competitive in TTs, that's a decent lap... if you can do it...

kamil1891

I also think, that in our beautiful world, the amount of people that can reach 5w/kg (with training) is pretty limited. Even more unlikely is doing it within a few months time frame. If you are really aiming for it then be prepared that this could be your very long term goal or even something out of your reach. Some people just reach a barrier and that's it!

However, you may find yourself very talented and being awesome endurance athlete. I think putting out 5w/kg at FTP even on a wattbike is enough to call anyone elite, or at least extraordinary athlete. This obviously doesn't translate into BC categories! Racing is a different world.

Maybe do a vo2max test? If your result is above 60+ then start even bothering? ;-)

DiscoBoy

This might be interesting for you OP (start at the beginning, obviously).

http://firstseasonracing.com

okgo

DiscoBoy wrote:

This might be interesting for you OP (start at the beginning, obviously).

http://firstseasonracing.com

Thanks.

I reference numbers in there a fair bit. I made 1st cat in my 2nd season and was vaguely competive towards the end of the season in a couple of races with decent e1 riders.

Numbers are good, and sure you need then, but to win those races you need to be in the right moves and the right places at the right time. If you skim read most of the national b races I did you'll notice I didn't manage this very well. I doubt there is many people I race against who have the same peak sprint as I have managed but it matters not when they're 4 mins up the road

Generally though to stay in touch at your weight will be a massive struggle. I cannot rember seeing anyone that size in any of my races and at 77-79kg I'm usually one of the larger blokes riding. You need to drop 10kg I would have thought. I know it's easy to use the broad shoulder, rugby build etc but 6,3 isn't especially tall and 95kg is a lot (I should know, I was 95kg!), the lads in the races you'll be wanting to win are your height and 70-72kg and probably are not a million miles away from putting out the same numbers.

End of last year I was roughly

370 FTP
470 5 min
750 1 min
1000w 30s
1550-1600 peak

And I don't expect it will be easy getting results this year (outside of time trials).

DiscoBoy

okgo wrote:

DiscoBoy wrote:

This might be interesting for you OP (start at the beginning, obviously).

http://firstseasonracing.com

Thanks.

Do you have some sort of radar for when I recommend your blog? Because you seem to notice every time I do, irrespective of which forum it's on!

okgo

It shows up on the traffic source list on wordpress

Good luck OP, let us know how you get on!

Pross

TheHound wrote:

This forum is full of dicks sometimes.

All the guy is asking for is info on what sort of wattage cat1 riders push out on average and climbs and sprints and stuff.

He's not saying he's going to enter a race next week. Just what sort of gap in performance there is between himself and cat1 racers.

Personally I have no experience with any of this but thought I should weigh in on OP's behalf.

No, what he asked was how much power he would need to win a 1st cat race. It just can't be answered. Look at people like Dan Martin who missed out on a BC place due to their 'numbers' being low and yet goes on to win top flight pro races. A race brain can overcome a lack of power, likewise someone with loads of power can struggle to keep in touch due to poor positioning and when it comes to actually winning these things make an even bigger difference. I doubt a rider like Gerrans is particularly powerful and yet he wins more than his fair share of races whilst Tony Martin has huge power but rarely wins road races.

Borderland

Gents thanks for the replies, didn't want to quote everything but anyway yes TheHound is right I was looking for numbers first before I start racing etc. But in the meantime some interesting stuff for me to look at on the Watt Bike and around Richmond Park etc, so I will start there and build. At the moment I've dropped about a stone since Christmas and am training for an Ironman to get my Dad some extra MdS sponsorship, hopefully that will get me below 95kg and my watts around 400W for FTP. Last Richmond Park I did en route to Box Hill in November was just north of 18 minutes so will do a flat out session once I claim my poor bike back from Sigma sports and see where I stand. Really appreciate everyone's feedback so thank you.

okgo

What meter are you using on your bike on the road?

More wattbikes than not that I've heard about have been VERY wrong...

Borderland

I'm inclined to believe in the Watt bike figures, a few of the guys at work have their own and their numbers are consistent across both bikes. You could be right but I have a background in rowing so I have strong legs albeit a heavy build. As for the road bike meter I don't have one just time with a watch. Will use strava next time too.

okgo

ah ok, as long as it tallys up with a few other peoples own powermeters it should be alright. Some of them have been very poor though considering the cost.

doesn't matter how strong your legs are, but I'm sure you know that

Borderland

Yeah don't worry I'm under no illusions thanks to DiscoBoy for the blog I'm having a little read over lunch. If anyone is interested I'm going to pick up cycling on Strava again which I neglected for some time being on the Boris Bike and all. The SuperSix is getting a spa treatment after several commuter crashes (a nod to my bike handling) but come the 20th I should be out and about once more! http://www.strava.com/athletes/2385940

okgo

Borderland wrote:

Yeah don't worry I'm under no illusions thanks to DiscoBoy for the blog I'm having a little read over lunch. If anyone is interested I'm going to pick up cycling on Strava again which I neglected for some time being on the Boris Bike and all. The SuperSix is getting a spa treatment after several commuter crashes (a nod to my bike handling) but come the 20th I should be out and about once more! http://www.strava.com/athletes/2385940

OH, you just followed me on Strava, I wondered who that might be

Good luck!