Wattage Targets

okgo

That's the spirit!

If only there were more like that, there would be so many less crashes

LegendLust

Borderland wrote:

Have read a load of threads etc about racing and Hillingdon specifically. If the race is one hour presumably there is no set number of laps? Just wondering how people time their moves etc. ie you can't really wait until penultimate lap as you don't know when it is....

I've read a book about brain surgery, so I'm going to rock up at my local hospital and have a go. I've got a nice scalpel, and I can sew up an inch long gash in some cotton in under 10 secs, so I think I should be pretty good.

Borderland

Wow. Some of you really are arseholes.

napoleond

Fair point well made!

imposter2.0

FFS give the guy a break, people! None of us were born into racing.

Pross

JoeyHalloran wrote:

okgo wrote:

I did 1000w for 30 secs and came 2nd.
I've also done 700 for 30 secs and won.

There you go, what does that tell you? Nothing.

It tells me half of what I wanted to know, what's your weight?

Power to weight isn't important in a flat sprint. If it was climbers would be winning bunch sprints at pro level.

Pross

Imposter wrote:

FFS give the guy a break, people! None of us were born into racing.

But most would at least get some experience rather than rocking up at a race with the intention of 'practising my bunch sprint'. It's my primary reason for not racing much anymore. I used to see crashes in maybe every third or fourth race but now a race without a crash seems rare - could just be my perception of risk as I get old though.

Borderland

Sorry where exactly do you want me to practice a race bunch sprint except for a race?

Pross

I'd suggest getting experience of riding in a fast group then racing in a fast group without taking part in the sprint before getting in amongst 30 or 40 people throwing their bikes around at 30mph but then again everything seems to be about the watts and who cares about learning skill and technique hey?

imposter2.0

Pross wrote:

Imposter wrote:

FFS give the guy a break, people! None of us were born into racing.

But most would at least get some experience rather than rocking up at a race with the intention of 'practising my bunch sprint'. It's my primary reason for not racing much anymore. I used to see crashes in maybe every third or fourth race but now a race without a crash seems rare - could just be my perception of risk as I get old though.

I know, but there's always been crashes at all levels of racing - there still are and there probably always will be. I rode my first road race on the Hayes bypass, back in the early 90s - before that I was MTBing and I'd never even ridden in a road group before. And I stayed upright - so anything's possible...

Borderland

Pross wrote:

I'd suggest getting experience of riding in a fast group then racing in a fast group without taking part in the sprint before getting in amongst 30 or 40 people throwing their bikes around at 30mph but then again everything seems to be about the watts and who cares about learning skill and technique hey?

I'm going to spend an hour riding in the group and then not sprint? And then what next time do the same. At some point I'm going to have to practice a sprint and my experience of sprinting will be zero be it my first race or third. I've come on here and been encouraged to race as watts are irrelevant if you can't produce on the road and that's exactly what I've signed up to do.

Borderland

If it makes you feel reassured I won't be competing in the sprint unless it is dry.

imposter2.0

Borderland wrote:

If it makes you feel reassured I won't be competing in the sprint unless it is dry.

Personally, I would say if you are in with a chance, then go for it. The issue is that most riders (new or experienced) leave their brains in the car before the race. But if you've got room, if the way is clear and if you can avoid cutting across anyone else's line, then sprint. If you've got no chance of a top 10 finish, then just sit up, make way for others and don't get involved.

maryka

Borderland wrote:

I've come on here and been encouraged to race as watts are irrelevant if you can't produce on the road and that's exactly what I've signed up to do.

In fairness to the other posters, that's not exactly true, you were encouraged to race but racing isn't entirely about the sprint in the final 15 seconds.

From earlier in the thread:

Borderland wrote:

93kg today and this week's 20min was 385watt, 515cal, 100rpm, 47.0kmh, 15.61km, 4.14watt/kg - baby steps!

Milese wrote:

With 385 watts in a flat 4th cat race you should be able to solo off the front fairly easily so long as you can get the gap. I doubt many 4th's have FTP's over over 300?

So basically you were encouraged to race BECAUSE you have the power to NOT have to sprint from the bunch, if you see what I mean. So showing up at Hillingdon, rolling around for an hour at 60% or less effort (which is what it will be if you really have an FTP north of 350w) then sprinting from the bunch at the end is actually quite pointless and proves nothing. Showing up and riding off the front, getting a break going and holding it (solo or with a few others) or having a proper go with 2 laps to go before all the frantics ramp up the pace to get near the front would be impressive. Rolling around then sprinting and losing or sprinting and crashing or not sprinting at all because it's wet is all quite lame.

Tom Dean

Borderland wrote:

Wow. Some of you really are arseholes.

Ok you have had a couple of sarcastic comments. If you have actually read some of the threads about Hillingdon you will know you fit the profile of the kind of riders that cause a lot if crashes there. This may be totally unfair but try to understand where people are coming from.

The key to safe riding is not so much about bike handling as decision making, and the key to that, in the absence if experience, is attitude.

I wouldn't worry about the wet, it doesn't make much difference. If anything it makes life easier as people are a bit more cautious.

weadmire

Border‎land,

I am enjoying the thread, it's a good topic and I think you are doing well. Well both in terms of describing your training and progress and in dealing with the r soles who seem to be unsettled by the prospect of reading about what 80 odd kg and 400 watts at 130bpm can do in the races they probably dream of winning.

There is a resonance in this thread I am sure you are familiar with from your rowing days, it might be referred to as the ergos don't float syndrome. In this thread it's seems to be expressed as power doesn't win races. I can say oh yes it does. Bike handling skills in most of the races 4's, 3's, 2's are involved in are nothing to write home about, certainly they are not analogous to surgery of any kind. I would say they are easily managed by ‎anyone used to commuting in London. There's no big deal to riding in a bunch. You are likely to encounter quite a bit of vocal, most of it is a matter of whom ever is doing the shouting suffering from ADS, attention deficiency syndrome, as in they feel they are not getting enough attention. Another thing that will amuse you is the range of excuses for failure.

Generally cycling races I have taken part in bring to mind Hemingway's original intended opening for the short story Fifty Grand. By way of motivation the main protagonist, a boxer in training, is asked how he beat an earlier opponent, a "clever boxer". "Yeah he was a clever boxer, a thinking boxer. And all the time he was thinking I was hitting him...." You will find most of the people you will be racing, like a good number of the contributors to this topic, will be thinkers...

Some pages ago you mentioned the work you did on the ergo as a university rower. I do not have a watt bike but I still have an ergo. It will help me to live vicariously through your exploits to know the times and distances you did: 2000m, 5000m, distance in 30mins and time for 15km.

Thanks.

Tom Dean

weadmire wrote:

You are likely to encounter quite a bit of vocal, most of it is a matter of whom ever is doing the shouting suffering from ADS, attention deficiency syndrome, as in they feel they are not getting enough attention.

So if someone shouts, assume it is they who have the problem?

Like I said, attitude.

weadmire

Tom,

"They have the problem"? Certainly most of the time. I doubt I ever saw a shouter ever do anything with regard to influencing a result. Indeed I'd say there was an inverse square proportion thing going on: their real influence on a race was proportional to the inverse square of their inclination to offer... let's call it advice to others. Yeah and let's call that "attitude".

imposter2.0

weadmire wrote:

Border‎land,

I am enjoying the thread, it's a good topic and I think you are doing well. Well both in terms of describing your training and progress and in dealing with the r soles who seem to be unsettled by the prospect of reading about what 80 odd kg and 400 watts at 130bpm can do in the races they probably dream of winning.

There is a resonance in this thread I am sure you are familiar with from your rowing days, it might be referred to as the ergos don't float syndrome. In this thread it's seems to be expressed as power doesn't win races. I can say oh yes it does. Bike handling skills in most of the races 4's, 3's, 2's are involved in are nothing to write home about, certainly they are not analogous to surgery of any kind. I would say they are easily managed by ‎anyone used to commuting in London. There's no big deal to riding in a bunch. You are likely to encounter quite a bit of vocal, most of it is a matter of whom ever is doing the shouting suffering from ADS, attention deficiency syndrome, as in they feel they are not getting enough attention. Another thing that will amuse you is the range of excuses for failure.

Generally cycling races I have taken part in bring to mind Hemingway's original intended opening for the short story Fifty Grand. By way of motivation the main protagonist, a boxer in training, is asked how he beat an earlier opponent, a "clever boxer". "Yeah he was a clever boxer, a thinking boxer. And all the time he was thinking I was hitting him...." You will find most of the people you will be racing, like a good number of the contributors to this topic, will be thinkers...

Some pages ago you mentioned the work you did on the ergo as a university rower. I do not have a watt bike but I still have an ergo. It will help me to live vicariously through your exploits to know the times and distances you did: 2000m, 5000m, distance in 30mins and time for 15km.

Thanks.

jesus - what a load of pretentious drivel..

wallace_and_gromit

Tom Dean wrote:

So if someone shouts, assume it is they who have the problem?

More often than not this would be right - by quite some way. The shouters might be "right", but no-one ever achieves anything of value by shouting in a race, and as Einstein says, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. If you're insane, then I say you have a problem! (A friendly chat afterwards might be a lot more effective, or may get your lights punched out...)

Unless the shouter provides a race number / bike description, the "offender" often won't know who is being shouted at. Assuming there is an offender, that is. Who's to know whether the shouter is right or simply sounding off?

I'd also say that most genuine offenders don't need shouting at. They either did it deliberately, because they're anti-social, with little regard for others' safety, knowing that shouters can be ignored and disqualifications are rare, or it was a misjudgement / loss of balance, in which case they make a mental note to try and not do it again, in which case shouters are just scaring nearby wildlife.

wallace_and_gromit

weadmire wrote:

Some pages ago you mentioned the work you did on the ergo as a university rower. I do not have a watt bike but I still have an ergo. It will help me to live vicariously through your exploits to know the times and distances you did: 2000m, 5000m, distance in 30mins and time for 15km.

I dabbled in the dark arts of the Concept 2 ergometer did the following (6' 1''; 76/77 kg)

2000m - 6:37
5000m - 17:29
30 minutes - 8310
15k - Never did one, but PB for the hour was 16,004m. (The last 5 metres of this was very important indeed!)

A long time and a lot of back trouble ago, sadly.

Tom Dean

Most of it tends to be along the lines of 'hold your fucking line' which is never bad advice to follow.

Why you would want to encourage a first-timer who has never even ridden in a group to ignore it, or what anyone's ability to affect the race or result has to do with anything, I have no idea. Tell

weadmire wrote:

There's no big deal to riding in a bunch.

to those who get ambulanced away from Hillingdon when the same kind of mistakes get made again and again.

I meant what I said about attitude as friendly advice to Borderland, not a criticism.

wallace_and_gromit

Tom Dean wrote:

Most of it tends to be along the lines of 'hold your ******* line' which is never bad advice to follow.

Indeed, but unless you are unaware you've not kept your line and some rider identification is provided along with the colourful language, the shouting is of no practical use to anyone, other than maybe making the shouter feel good about themselves.

okgo

I disagree to an extent, I think a bit of gentle encouragement often helps.

I remember getting in a 2 up break with a rider who was intent on sitting on because he had two up the road, I explained to him that he either helped and he got himself a result, or he didn't and we got brought back. In the end he did help and we got over to the group of 4 with his 2 team mates, before I beat them all in a sprint, I imagine he wasn't a popular boy

Borderland

Look I'm not an idiot and I appreciate some of the more measured points. I will not be cycling like a plank and I'm well aware my physical attributes are tailored to a break so yes that is plan A. I do appreciate the majority of advice.

Weadmire my peak performances would have been:

2km - 6.08
5km - 16.16
30mins - 8550m
15km - no idea, only did 16km as a steady pace rather than racing so rate 20 for 16km somewhere shy of and hour.

Tom Dean

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

Most of it tends to be along the lines of 'hold your ******* line' which is never bad advice to follow.

Indeed, but unless you are unaware you've not kept your line and some rider identification is provided along with the colourful language, the shouting is of no practical use to anyone, other than maybe making the shouter feel good about themselves.

OK, I think that is something for new riders to find out for themselves, rather than go into races with the idea that the other riders are to be ignored. Whatever, if someone shouts you should be open to the possibility that you fucked up and reflect on what you did. Attitude. I'm not saying every shout is justified or useful.

I only chipped in when reference was made to Borderland's lack of experience and he responded with some more power figures. He should be aware of some of the issues to consider now! I think I will leave it there. I don't see any point debating the specifics here. - my answer to the specifics is to race at a more challenging circuit where none of these problems seem to arise

LegendLust

Borderland wrote:

Look I'm not an idiot and I appreciate some of the more measured points. I will not be cycling like a plank and I'm well aware my physical attributes are tailored to a break so yes that is plan A. I do appreciate the majority of advice.

Weadmire my peak performances would have been:

2km - 6.08
5km - 16.16
30mins - 8550m
15km - no idea, only did 16km as a steady pace rather than racing so rate 20 for 16km somewhere shy of and hour.

OK apologies for my previous 'Brain Surgery' post. It's great that you want to race, and OK, racing a 4th Cat crit isn't a World Tour event, however my 'Surgery' post was a sarcastic way of addressing some problems with just reading and theorising about racing.

So here are some serious pointers to think about before your race:

1. Have you ridden in a group of cyclists at speed?

2. Have you ridden close to another rider at speed (so that your elbows are nearly touching)?

3. Can you ride a few inches from the back wheel of a rider? And know where to position yourself if they stop suddenly, or 'lag' back when they get out of the saddle?

4. Can you do the above when cornering at high speed?

5. Do you know a good technique to break away from the pack?

6. Do you know how to ride in crosswinds and where to position yourself?

All the above (apart from point 5) can be learned at a local chaingang. Find out where there is one near you and join in. They'll be great experience, and if they're like the ones round here, will end with a sprint anyway. A CG is the best way to gain race experience without actually racing.

However with your wattage and power, I'd suggest you ride some time trials as well.

wallace_and_gromit

Borderland wrote:

2km - 6.08
5km - 16.16
30mins - 8550m

Holy sh*t. That's good. Well rowed!

Borderland

Those were my peaks not what I am doing now, I actually have no clue whatsoever where I am presently. As for the checklist I'm missing 2 and 5 but the rest I have under my belt. And if you count cars as people then 2 is covered too! Cycling in the wet in London rush hour surely can't be less dangerous?

okgo

The lack of personal space you will have in a race round a tight crit circuit really does have to be seen (or ridden) to be believed its nothing like London rush hour, which is a doddle, even idiots with headphones in and no care in the world manage it on a daily basis.

I crashed on my 4th of 5th race at Hillingdon and snapped my frame. It wasn't my fault, but I'm sure it was someone who probably had not made much effort to learn about group riding as he switched his line so dramatically. It often goes without issue in races but for the sake of my own safety and interest I was glad to have done a few chaingangs and a racing skills day (which my club hosted) before I raced. Lets not forget, people have died as a result of crashing on crit circuits, we're not just talking about skinned knee's here.

I know many people who race are all for changing the system from a points based upgrade from 4th>3rd cat to an experience based upgrade, I think this would be a useful system. My best advice would be to try and win by breaking away if you can, I wasn't fit enough when I started racing, so waited for sprints, but you likely could do it right from the start, its a safe way to win