Orange Hate

Matt-r8

No one did up until now. I'll not lie, one of the reasons I wanted to try the Orange is because it is made in England. Shit a statement is, I think there are probably a few that have bought Orange for the same reason. Supporting an English/British company that are doing well In such a competitive market.

Chunkers1980

Seems a bit silly to me considering most things but the frame are from elsewhere.

Angus Young

Chunkers1980 wrote:

Seems a bit silly to me considering most things but the frame are from elsewhere.

How many of us buy everything we buy for purely logical reasons?

roverpig

Indeed. Brand loyalty and national identity are as subjective as anything else. Some people get a sense of pleasure (national pride maybe) from buying something made in the UK. Others don't. Personally I like the fact that the frames are made pretty much to order here in the UK, but mainly because it means they can offer a range of colours and it's easy to get the frame refurbished (and sprayed a different colour if the mood takes you). I just don't like grey mountain bikes, but each to their own.

Matt-r8

Chunkers1980.
Maybe most things on your bike frame are (which is no bad thing) but mine is mostly Hope. Used Hope gear for years and use it on all my bikes, even on my wife's bike.

misinformer

Northwind wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

i know then there is the idea of if you don’t have anything nice to say don't say anything, but I don’t agree with that

This forum would be left with nothing but Supersonic saying "I like bikes" over and over

Or Cotic are brilliant ,my Hemlock ad nauseum which isn't actually anything different or special and broke a lot.

At least you own both so your opinion is balanced :roll:

misinformer

roverpig wrote:

Indeed. Brand loyalty and national identity are as subjective as anything else. Some people get a sense of pleasure (national pride maybe) from buying something made in the UK. Others don't. Personally I like the fact that the frames are made pretty much to order here in the UK, but mainly because it means they can offer a range of colours and it's easy to get the frame refurbished (and sprayed a different colour if the mood takes you). I just don't like grey mountain bikes, but each to their own.

This ^^^^ Impartiality

Doesn't bother me either way, it kind of grates though when every forum has the same folks waffling how ace an Orange isn't

lawman

Matt-r8 wrote:

Chunkers1980.
Maybe most things on your bike frame are (which is no bad thing) but mine is mostly Hope. Used Hope gear for years and use it on all my bikes, even on my wife's bike.

Thing is though, using everything Hope is all well and good but imo they don't make any leading products. Good yes, worth choosing over similar stuff? Potentially not. I like the hubs, but they can be a bit soft, spoke holes crack and I've seen two crack straight through the hub body. I managed to snap my pro2 axle clean in half as well. I used to swear by their brakes, but Shimano walk all over them these days. The other stuff is rather expensive for what it is, the BB's are good but not worth 3x the price of Shimano. The seatclamps also seem pretty crap, I snapped a bolt on mine just tightening it up. At the end of the day, they make half decent kit that costs a lot and looks pretty, but there is better stuff out there often for less.

Matt-r8

I've not had any problem with Hope stuff. I had XT brakes on my Downhill bike, and thought they were utter shite, yet there are so many posts on here saying otherwise. That said, I did buy them second hand, but they seemed to work fine as they should. New pads, and discs were properly cleaned, just didn't feel to have the same feel as the Hopes I replaced them with.
I personally like the way Hope stuff looks as well, which probably makes my views biased anyway, because I want to like them.

russyh

Exactly this, I love how hope stuff looks, the way it works and how serviceable it is. Also customer service is spot on. Again it's all personal preferences but a hope kitted five is pretty slick in my opinion. But I can fully understand people not liking them.

lawman

Matt-r8 wrote:

I personally like the way Hope stuff looks as well, which probably makes my views biased anyway, because I want to like them.

There's no doubt some of it looks fantastic, the Tech X2's I had looked amazing with the black/green anodising, but the m785 Xt's were so much more powerful, I downsized from a 183mm to 160mm rotor. As I said before, it's not bad kit at all, some of it can be a little ropey but I think there are better for certain things and the bling looks and made in UK value is a key part of why people but their kit.

The Northern Monkey

Problem with Hope stuff is that its form over function for me. and it costs far too much for what it is. Yes it looks alright, but if they actually made something market leading then it would be worth the price.

But...Who the FARK pays £120 for a set of pedals that weigh 400g?!

Same goes for Orange bikes.

cooldad

Matt-r8 wrote:

I've not had any problem with Hope stuff. I had XT brakes on my Downhill bike, and thought they were utter shite, yet there are so many posts on here saying otherwise. That said, I did buy them second hand, but they seemed to work fine as they should. New pads, and discs were properly cleaned, just didn't feel to have the same feel as the Hopes I replaced them with.
I personally like the way Hope stuff looks as well, which probably makes my views biased anyway, because I want to like them.

Because there is XT (old stuff that's just OK) and new stuff, that is pretty damn amazing, especially for the price.
New Deore is better than old XT, and not far short (if at all except for a bit of weight and easier adjustment) of new XT.

Dick Scruttock

New Deore is better than most if not all Hope brakes.

Northwind

misinformer wrote:

Or Cotic are brilliant ,my Hemlock ad nauseum which isn't actually anything different or special and broke a lot.

At least you own both so your opinion is balanced :roll:

Yeah, and all those reviews to make a nonsense of your tat claim were biased too.

And as far as I know I've only mentioned the Hemlock once in this thread... So now I'll do a bunch more. Some things, you can simply compare objectively. For example, design. The first version of the Hemlock's swingarm was too weak, so Cotic redesigned it and made a completely different one available to all owners, I got a replacement despite not having a warranty (which is good). Number of known v2 swingarm breakages- none.

Or, you could be Orange, and make a bike you know is a bit weak for 6 years (if my maths is right) and change absolutely nothing The headtube design error I mentioned earlier existed in the 224 and was carried over to the Evo. The falling suspension rate too. This doesn't add up to a premium product no matter how much of a fanboy you are.

My Last Herb DH's RRP was almost exactly the same as my Orange. Put the two side by side and that's hard to believe. The build quality of the Herb's better, the attention to detail's better, the paint's better (by which I mean, they didn't miss a bit like on my Orange) and the herb's a more complex design which adds cost.

Again, not subjective at all, just facts. The weirdness that you talk about "impartiality" while being a total fanboy that can't hear criticism of one brand or compliments to another without spazzing out is pretty funny though

roverpig

You can put two bikes side by side and find details that are objectively better on one of them, but whether you think either of them are worth the asking price is still subjective. That's all I was trying to say, but I fear I may have intruded on a private dispute, so I'll quietly retire.

Northwind

Nah, please don't, you nailed it pretty well. There's nothing wrong at all with that sense of nationalism, some folks just don't seem to realise it's not the be-all and end-all.

(It always begs the question for me, how much would people pay for these frames or bikes if they were made in taiwan? The Orange hardtail pricing is eye-opening, it seems like it's the brand that has the price premium rather than the actual handmade-in-england thing)

Though, I would add that any bike can be resprayed and refurbed. It's cool that Orange can do it in-house, very convenient and simple, so worth the price to some.

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

Though, I would add that any bike can be resprayed and refurbed. It's cool that Orange can do it in-house, very convenient and simple, so could be worth the price to some.

A hugely over inflated price, presumably...

Northwind

It's not horrendous- only a little more than Argos frinstance. £200 for full refurb inc return postage on a full suss frame- that includes stickers, bearings, and for some reason a new headbadge. TBH it's the low standard of the OEM paintjob that'd put me off rather than the price, but then mine is a few years old so they might have improved.

roverpig

You're right of course, any bike can be resprayed, but being able to send it back to the manufacturer and get a full refurb (stickers, bearings etc) at the same time is handy. Don't underestimate how lazy some of us are

I didn't realise there was an issue with the finish. Mine seems to be holding up OK, but maybe I'm just not riding it hard enough. Typical Five owning mincer.

There is more to the bikes than where they are made and how easy they are to paint though. But you know that.

roverpig

Northwind wrote:

(It always begs the question for me, how much would people pay for these frames or bikes if they were made in taiwan? The Orange hardtail pricing is eye-opening, it seems like it's the brand that has the price premium rather than the actual handmade-in-england thing)

It's a good question. I should start by saying that I didn't buy a full bike and didn't pay full price for a frame either. I got a new 26" frame at something like 30% off as the world has gone 650b mad. But I can fully understand why some people do buy them at full price. They are hugely fun and I don't think my enjoyment of the bike has much to do with the brand or where it is made. To be honest I don't feel any more affinity with a hairy arsed welder from Halifax than I do with his opposite number in Tiawan. The choice of colours probably influenced me more than the brand. However, much as I love my Five, I haven't ridden every bike in the world by a long shot. It stands to reason that there must be other bikes out there that I'd like just as much. So, it seems quite likely that the British tag was a factor in me trying the bike in the first place and if you don't try it you will never know if you like it.

Northwind

roverpig wrote:

I haven't ridden every bike in the world by a long shot. It stands to reason that there must be other bikes out there that I'd like just as much. So, it seems quite likely that the British tag was a factor in me trying the bike in the first place and if you don't try it you will never know if you like it.

I like you. I'm going to kidnap you and keep you in a cellar, harvest your blood, put it in a centrifuge, collect the common sense ichor that settles on the top and inject it into stupid people. I'm sure you realise it's for the best.

roverpig wrote:

I didn't realise there was an issue with the finish. Mine seems to be holding up OK, but maybe I'm just not riding it hard enough. Typical Five owning mincer.

With mine it's not so much the quality of the paint- it's holding up decently except in the bits they missed entirely and the bits they painted really thinly. Could be a friday afternoon job, seen a few that are similiar but most seem decent.

welshkev

Matt-r8 wrote:

Chunkers1980.
Maybe most things on your bike frame are (which is no bad thing) but mine is mostly Hope. Used Hope gear for years and use it on all my bikes, even on my wife's bike.

why have you put the hope stickers on there? is it so people don't realise you're riding an orange?

RevellRider

Haters are gonna hate

http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/322_frame/

misinformer

Northwind wrote:

misinformer wrote:

Or Cotic are brilliant ,my Hemlock ad nauseum which isn't actually anything different or special and broke a lot.

At least you own both so your opinion is balanced :roll:

Yeah, and all those reviews to make a nonsense of your tat claim were biased too.

And as far as I know I've only mentioned the Hemlock once in this thread... So now I'll do a bunch more. Some things, you can simply compare objectively. For example, design. The first version of the Hemlock's swingarm was too weak, so Cotic redesigned it and made a completely different one available to all owners, I got a replacement despite not having a warranty (which is good). Number of known v2 swingarm breakages- none.

Or, you could be Orange, and make a bike you know is a bit weak for 6 years (if my maths is right) and change absolutely nothing The headtube design error I mentioned earlier existed in the 224 and was carried over to the Evo. The falling suspension rate too. This doesn't add up to a premium product no matter how much of a fanboy you are.

My Last Herb DH's RRP was almost exactly the same as my Orange. Put the two side by side and that's hard to believe. The build quality of the Herb's better, the attention to detail's better, the paint's better (by which I mean, they didn't miss a bit like on my Orange) and the herb's a more complex design which adds cost.

Again, not subjective at all, just facts. The weirdness that you talk about "impartiality" while being a total fanboy that can't hear criticism of one brand or compliments to another without spazzing out is pretty funny though

Chap its not me that does forum to forum waffling poop about how great the bikes I own are ,It gets boring, im sure it's just over here there are less adults to filter your overinflated opinion out ,Christ your laughing at me ? I laughed! as fast as you could "Google" Cotic and forum there's a username "northwind" extolling his fanboy credentials, even bikes you don't own and are clueless about, Exactly how many press releases can you cut copy and paste on a brand owners behalf.

You post god know's how many links no one CBA to read due to them coming from Bikeradar and DIRT both sites well known for having a bit of a soft spot for each of the brands and having a special relationship with brand owners.

I don't think you have ever made a thing in your life so find it very very difficult to pay any credence to anything you might have read then regurgitated, is it an ego thing? where you have to be right or do you just need to be heard by people you think are worthy.

poah

RevellRider wrote:

Haters are gonna hate

http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/322_frame/

fanboys going to cum over orange bikes

roverpig

Northwind wrote:

I like you. I'm going to kidnap you and keep you in a cellar, harvest your blood, put it in a centrifuge, collect the common sense ichor that settles on the top and inject it into stupid people. I'm sure you realise it's for the best.

That's very kind, but I'm afraid that a lot of people are after my blood, so you'll need to get in line

To be fair to Orange owners, it is hard to stay rational when somebody insults your pride and joy and seems to imply that you were an idiot for buying it. It's not only Orange riders who have an irrational attachment to their bikes either. Reading forums it seems as though almost anybody with a new bike thinks it's the best thing ever and whatever type or riding you do or wherever you ride you should buy what they bought. That's great really. I'm glad they enjoy their bikes and it supports my basic thesis, which is that the Five is a great trail bike. It's not the only great trail bike. It may not even be the only great UK made trail bike (especially if the rumours about Cotic moving some production back to the UK are to be believed). But it is a great trail bike.

If we accept that there are lots of great trail bikes out there and few of us have the time or inclination to test them all, then how are you supposed to narrow down the field? Starting with things that are made (or at least designed) in your home country seems a good a way as any to me. You could equally well start with a list of bikes that come in the colour you like best, or look at what your mates are riding, or pour through spec sheets and try to find the ones that seem to offer the best value for money. But I'm not sure why the latter is considered to be the only rational approach.

PS. Isn't ichor supposed to be poisonous to mortals? Or was that part of your plan

Matt-r8

welshkev wrote:

Matt-r8 wrote:

Chunkers1980.
Maybe most things on your bike frame are (which is no bad thing) but mine is mostly Hope. Used Hope gear for years and use it on all my bikes, even on my wife's bike.

why have you put the hope stickers on there? is it so people don't realise you're riding an orange?

Rumbled.

Chunkers1980

Yeah, they do rumble along, like a sack of spanners it's said.

But seriously, you should put stickers on your rims, drive train, saddle, shock, forks, tyres ect to try and fool people they are British, this making them better in every way.

Matt-r8

Umm, guess you didn't realise this is a HOPE factory bike. It's not something I have had done myself. It's number 18 out of the batch Hope built up. Maybe that's why the welds and paint are so good. Who knows? Used by sponsored riders and I believe Hope employees. Or, did you know this and were trying to get a bite? Not sure, hard to tell on a forum. Not ridden in anger yet, so I'll not comment on the ride yet, but of it's as much fun as my old Remedy, I'll be happy.