TDF 2013 - Stage 10 *Spoiler*

HalfWheeledToDeath

Just seen Cav's performance in front of the TV cameras and journo's. When things go wrong he is a PR nightmare.

Matt Rendell, delicately - "what about the argy bargy at the end?" (as euphemisms for taking a guy out at 40 mph that's a cracker)

Cav - "Oh there you go, trying to make out that I'm a bad sprinter" (or words to that effect).

It's a bunch sprint, he does loads of them, occasionally he'll be partly to blame for crashes (although not often) but much as I like him he does himself no favours with his petulant defensive behaviour when the s**t hits the fan.

ddraver

I put it in the wrong thread but -

Julien Prétot ‏@julienpretotRTR
Race jury says Cavendish not at fault in sprint incident #tdf

Guess that's that then, think he's a lucky boy...

esafosfina1

Alan A wrote:

esafosfina1 wrote:

And, please believe me, having sprinted against one of the 'dodgiest' riders of all time (Abdou) I know what a deliberate 'switch' is... :roll:

And that's us all trumped.

What was the scariest sprint you were involved in?

Sorry Al! Didn't mean to 'trump'...

Abdou 'turned' right in a 'Meta Volantes' sprint in Tour of Aragon back in 91 and nearly decked Kelly and I... Sean went ballistic and grab him by the scruff of the neck... that was pretty scary! But I locked bars with Cipo in a sprint (also in Spain) and to this day I have no idea how either of us stayed upright! Van Poppel won, Ludwig was second, and bllody 'super mario' got over me for third, ffs!

tailwindhome

esafosfina1 wrote:

Alan A wrote:

esafosfina1 wrote:

And, please believe me, having sprinted against one of the 'dodgiest' riders of all time (Abdou) I know what a deliberate 'switch' is... :roll:

And that's us all trumped.

What was the scariest sprint you were involved in?

Sorry Al! Didn't mean to 'trump'...

Abdou 'turned' right in a 'Meta Volantes' sprint in Tour of Aragon back in 91 and nearly decked Kelly and I... Sean went ballistic and grab him by the scruff of the neck... that was pretty scary! But I locked bars with Cipo in a sprint (also in Spain) and to this day I have no idea how either of us stayed upright! Van Poppel won, Ludwig was second, and bllody 'super mario' got over me for third, ffs!

If you were the race jury would you sanction Cav?

tailwindhome

Mark Renshaw ‏@Mark_Renshaw 20m
Lots of talk about todays stage & what happened. It sure wasn't Cav's fault. Its hard to disappear from 3rd wheel & not get in someones way.

tailwindhome

"Apparently [Mark] Cavendish bumped into Tom and he lost control of his handlebars and crashed... I cannot imagine that Cavendish did that on purpose, it just happens sometimes in a hectic final. Every sprinter wants to come to the front when he comes to the line and I hope that he's okay."
Kittel

mididoctors

the post race interview was worse than the incident

esafosfina1

TailWindHome wrote:

esafosfina1 wrote:

Alan A wrote:

esafosfina1 wrote:

And, please believe me, having sprinted against one of the 'dodgiest' riders of all time (Abdou) I know what a deliberate 'switch' is... :roll:

And that's us all trumped.

What was the scariest sprint you were involved in?

Sorry Al! Didn't mean to 'trump'...

Abdou 'turned' right in a 'Meta Volantes' sprint in Tour of Aragon back in 91 and nearly decked Kelly and I... Sean went ballistic and grab him by the scruff of the neck... that was pretty scary! But I locked bars with Cipo in a sprint (also in Spain) and to this day I have no idea how either of us stayed upright! Van Poppel won, Ludwig was second, and bllody 'super mario' got over me for third, ffs!

If you were the race jury would you sanction Cav?

Can I sit (rather uncomfortably...) on the fence? Nah, didn't think so...! I would issue a warning, and a fine. Punitive, but the more I watch the final I really don't think it's deliberate...

Something that hasn't been mentioned is this: when a rider (a lead-out man or a designated sprinter) eases up in the final, they 'relax' and the focus goes... all it takes therefore is a nudge, that if in the zone would be dealt with easily, and unfortunately, today we witnessed what can happen if not!

petemadoc

Cav, acting like a bit of a baby. I think he's pissed off with this tour, his sprint train leaves a lot to be desired and he's not getting results. Hard to tell if it was deliberate but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Strange that he didn't contest the sprint properly, he looked to be on Kittel's wheel as they came round the last bend.

Circlip

Confess I've not read every single word of above posts but I haven't seen anywhere the notion that Cav (small, squat and fast of thought) looks almost to be bracing himself for the impact.

Feel obliged to bow to the experienced views of esafosfina who seems to imply in his first post that Cav took TV out. But for arguments sake, *if* it had been Robbie M clashing against Cav (because this is the sort of thing that happens in high speed sprints, right) I kind of imagine they would have bounced against each other. And stayed upright.

TomV is slowing down as he's done his job. Cav is making his surge to hit top speed as he pulls on the bars & causes his front wheel to rock. Anyone else think that Cav sees the impact better and prepares himself for it, hence the shoulder?

Quite surprised by your comments Sturge; surely Cav knows that the clash today which hurts Argos could easily be Steegmans or whoever from OPQS bouncing off Greipel in the next few days? ie accidents happen, Pro riders don't simply take each other out.*

*Was thinking about rogue sprinters like Abdou, Brown etc on the way home. Surely the majority conduct themselves in a sensible manner for the on-going safety of all?

***
Colin, can you tell us about the time you beat Tim Cooper in a sprint?

adr82

TailWindHome wrote:

LOL.

Just watched it again on slo-mo and stick with my opinion.

Just because he was he was level with Kittel doesn't mean he wasn't beaten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFV2q4CKNi8

Regardless of the "was he beaten?" question, that video does confirm what I thought at the time - just watch the white lines on the road and you can quite easily see just how far Veelers moves towards Cav. He has to share some of the blame for what happened for moving in that direction, especially as you can also see him looking over his shoulder so he can't claim he didn't know who was behind him... he starts off about a metre to the left of the line and by the time he hits Cav he's about the same distance to the right of it! If he'd even just stayed on the white line he'd have been fine.

philwint

In the post race interview Cav came across as a complete knob.

But I've watched the slow motion footage a few times and I really don't think he was to blame.

For me the decisive observation is that at the point of collision cav was still at least 2 feet to the right of the white line on the road that they were both on when Dumoulin pulled off to the left. Yes Cav leaned into the collision, and was turning left too. But I think he was steering into where there should have been space if Dumoulin had continued off to the left, and the lean/brace was self defense.

So my reading is Dumoulin pulled off to the left, Cav accelerated and went round him to the right, then as he started to move left onto the back of the wheel in front, Dumoulin veered right. Cav should have been more alert to what he was doing, as once he had spotted the imminent hit all he could do was brace for impact, but Dumoulin should have carried on the path he had started on and not zig zagged. So both contributed to the collision, but Dumoulin rather more than Cav

TMR

Veelers was a tool, he clearly knew what he was doing and Cav spanked him. Nothing to see, move along.

skylla

philwint wrote:

In the post race interview Cav came across as a complete knob.

But I've watched the slow motion footage a few times and I really don't think he was to blame.

For me the decisive observation is that at the point of collision cav was still at least 2 feet to the right of the white line on the road that they were both on when Dumoulin pulled off to the left. Yes Cav leaned into the collision, and was turning left too. But I think he was steering into where there should have been space if Dumoulin had continued off to the left, and the lean/brace was self defense.

So my reading is Dumoulin pulled off to the left, Cav accelerated and went round him to the right, then as he started to move left onto the back of the wheel in front, Dumoulin veered right. Cav should have been more alert to what he was doing, as once he had spotted the imminent hit all he could do was brace for impact, but Dumoulin should have carried on the path he had started on and not zig zagged. So both contributed to the collision, but Dumoulin rather more than Cav

Veelers.

But yes, I concur

tailwindhome

iainf72 wrote:

I see the iainf72 rule of sprint stages is as accurate as ever

Good to see you can still prove the doubters wrong

dolan_driver

PeteMadoc wrote:

Cav, acting like a bit of a baby. I think he's pissed off with this tour, his sprint train leaves a lot to be desired and he's not getting results. Hard to tell if it was deliberate but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

I'd agree with this assessment of things today. Veelers contributed to his demise to a certain extent but Cavendish certainly helped him on his way. It wasn't a "Theo Bos-special" but it was avoidable by Cavendish if he chose to do so. It is incidents like this and his post-race interview that turn the neutral fans off the guy.

Kittel's turn of speed in the last 50 metres was incredible. A great win for him.

DD.

TMR

I think the problem is that in previous Tours, Cav has either had things completely his own way, or mostly his own way and this year his competitors are arguably very good. He's just getting frustrated.

tailwindhome

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Veelers was a tool, he clearly knew what he was doing and Cav spanked him. Nothing to see, move along.

mididoctors

esafosfina1 wrote:

Alan A wrote:

esafosfina1 wrote:

And, please believe me, having sprinted against one of the 'dodgiest' riders of all time (Abdou) I know what a deliberate 'switch' is... :roll:

And that's us all trumped.

What was the scariest sprint you were involved in?

Sorry Al! Didn't mean to 'trump'...

Abdou 'turned' right in a 'Meta Volantes' sprint in Tour of Aragon back in 91 and nearly decked Kelly and I... Sean went ballistic and grab him by the scruff of the neck... that was pretty scary! But I locked bars with Cipo in a sprint (also in Spain) and to this day I have no idea how either of us stayed upright! Van Poppel won, Ludwig was second, and bllody 'super mario' got over me for third, ffs!

I'm guessing

Colin Sturgess

ocdupalais

mididoctors wrote:

esafosfina1 wrote:

Alan A wrote:

esafosfina1 wrote:

And, please believe me, having sprinted against one of the 'dodgiest' riders of all time (Abdou) I know what a deliberate 'switch' is... :roll:

And that's us all trumped.

What was the scariest sprint you were involved in?

Sorry Al! Didn't mean to 'trump'...

Abdou 'turned' right in a 'Meta Volantes' sprint in Tour of Aragon back in 91 and nearly decked Kelly and I... Sean went ballistic and grab him by the scruff of the neck... that was pretty scary! But I locked bars with Cipo in a sprint (also in Spain) and to this day I have no idea how either of us stayed upright! Van Poppel won, Ludwig was second, and bllody 'super mario' got over me for third, ffs!

I'm guessing

Colin Sturgess

Pffft... try again.



We've had this before: it's David Duffield.

RichN95.

Cavendish has obviously had an almighty strop on the team bus and stamped his feet up and down until he's got want he wants: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/renshaw ... ep-in-2014

rick_chasey

Eddy Planckaert seems to agree with efasofina.

Cav's behaviour according to him was 'dirty'.

Says he made two errors. #1 not staying with Steegmans.

#2. He feel this was a pretty retro sprint. Like the ones he used to compete in. He thinks Veelers did the right thing - noticed Cav was on his wheel so eased up. By the time Cav went passed Kitel had already gone one the other way and Greipel was 10m up the road, so he gave Veelers a trackie knock out of frustration. Planckeart doesn't seem to think he wanted to knock him off, but he does think Cav wanted to vent some frustration at Veelers.

http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrenn ... over_spurt

peat

I don't think he meant to have him off, but certainly wanted to let him know he was there.

His subsequent behavior with the press was moronic.

Big lose for Cav.

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

Eddy Planckaert seems to agree with efasofina.

Cav's behaviour according to him was 'dirty'.

Says he made two errors. #1 not staying with Steegmans.

#2. He feel this was a pretty retro sprint. Like the ones he used to compete in. He thinks Veelers did the right thing - noticed Cav was on his wheel so eased up. By the time Cav went passed Kitel had already gone one the other way and Greipel was 10m up the road, so he gave Veelers a trackie knock out of frustration. Planckeart doesn't seem to think he wanted to knock him off, but he does think Cav wanted to vent some frustration at Veelers.

http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrenn ... over_spurt

Rich says he's talking crap.

ddraver

+1 to Eddie, but meh nothings come of it so...

goonz

adr82 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

LOL.

Just watched it again on slo-mo and stick with my opinion.

Just because he was he was level with Kittel doesn't mean he wasn't beaten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFV2q4CKNi8

Regardless of the "was he beaten?" question, that video does confirm what I thought at the time - just watch the white lines on the road and you can quite easily see just how far Veelers moves towards Cav. He has to share some of the blame for what happened for moving in that direction, especially as you can also see him looking over his shoulder so he can't claim he didn't know who was behind him... he starts off about a metre to the left of the line and by the time he hits Cav he's about the same distance to the right of it! If he'd even just stayed on the white line he'd have been fine.

Not disputing this, but if you remember immediately after this section is a left hand bend, meaning the white lines would veer left. TV was in slow down mode, had switched off after doing his bit and most likely not paying total attention to the road and so was probably drifting straight rather than following the road left. Cav obviously was veering left and in addition as some member mention was probably trying to get onto Greipel's wheel. This would mean he would need to move left but either Cav moved too early or TV was not braced for the shoulder barge and down he went.

Either way I think it was a racing incident and if it had been another sprinter they would most likely have just bounced off each other.

FJS

ddraver wrote:

+1 to Eddie, but meh nothings come of it so...

Eddie's very clear that Cav made the mistakes, but is very reluctant to add any penalties, let alone dsq. Like esasofina, really. Did you sprint against Eddie BTW?

It would be a grown up thing for Cav to go and apologise in person, especially because Veelers asks him to : http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozon ... fel_Lieven
But the, sprinters are hyperactive kids, not really expected to be gown ups

frenchfighter

Greipel posted this then deleted it:
Congrats to @marcelkittel and @1t4i [Argos-Shimano]. Hope @tom_veelers is fine after that hard crash. Unnecessary and scary shit.

Koen de Kort:
Tom’s alright. He’s got a fair bit of skin off but he’ll be ok — he’s been a lot worse, put it that way. It’s a pity — it sort of dampens the spirit a bit but we’re really happy with the victory obviously.
I came up and stopped when I saw [Veelers] on the ground and then I had a chat with him. All he was saying was “did Marcel win?! Did Marcel win?!”

I already figured he was ok. I just told him to stay down and get someone to look at him, because he wanted to get up.

I think Cavendish could have gone around. He goes for the shortest way and the road was going left and obviously Tom was going in the way. I’ve done many lead-outs in the past as the last guy and you swing off and you just hope no-one’s going to hit you. It’s kind of the other sprinters’ responsibility to take care.

Every sprinter’s got a lead-out guy and you have to take care of these guys. Tom wasn’t blocking Cav on purpose or anything – he was just trying to get out of the way. I think as a sprinter it’s your responsibility to go around. I’m sure Cav didn’t mean to knock him down but I think he could have done more to avoid hitting him.

@mattgoss1986
That was a close as u can come to going down in a sprint today! Veelers bike hit my front wheel then my leg then sent me in the air at 70kph

frenchfighter

Screenshots here: http://tourdejose.com/2013/07/09/screen ... d-veelers/

SO blatant that Cav could have avoided it. Even if he hadn`t hit Veeler`s bars he sure would have hit his front wheel. He clearly

So what if Tom went 1ft left. Cav knows he could simply keep pedalling for another 2m then swing by. If he had done that he might have even won. By knocking Veelers he lost some speed and concentration.

Its not like Cav is a first or even third year pro. He has more experience at the front end of a sprint then anyone else there.

frenchfighter

Respect to Stannard and EBH. The others pretty useless.