Wiggins crook?

Macaloon

I'm having a hard time coming up with a top 3 'Tall Poppies' : defined as people who were truly exceptional unjustifiably 'brought down a peg or two' by a jealous majority.

Can anybody help out?

btw This definition specifically disqualifies the likes of John Terry where the initial fame is obviously hype.

RichN95.

ddraver wrote:

I'm struggling to think what else the Telegraph should have it's pages with today, Lions v Barbarians can only fill so much copy...

The Derby, Cricket, England football in Brazil, French Open tennis. I found out today that speedway is remarkably popular.

RichN95.

Macaloon wrote:

I'm having a hard time coming up with a top 3 'Tall Poppies' : defined as people who were truly exceptional unjustifiably 'brought down a peg or two' by a jealous majority.

Can anybody help out?

btw This definition specifically disqualifies the likes of John Terry where the initial fame is obviously hype.

Gascoigne, Flintoff, Dallaglio, Beckham & Hatton are five that immediately popped into my mind (mostly their own doing)

smithy21

Wayne Rooney,Lewis Hamilton

ddraver

Just about every England footballer ever. Andy Murray. Cav.

I ve said many times that the cyclists we truly deserve as a nation are the Schlecks. Loads of potential but never deliver! They are Britain's perfect sports stars!

iainf72

So basically no examples at all?

Richmond Racer

Mo Farah over the London Marathon business. The glow of those 2 gold medals sure lasted a long time...

Macaloon

I mean everybody likes a feeding frenzy and the schadenfreude fair flows when the mighty fall, but I'm not sure, with possible exception of Lewis Hamilton, that anyone else mentioned has been unjustifiably chopped down to size. They stopped performing and disintegrated.

RichN95.

Richmond Racer wrote:

Mo Farah over the London Marathon business. The glow of those 2 gold medals sure lasted a long time...

Hoy and his tax too.

RichN95.

Macaloon wrote:

I mean everybody likes a feeding frenzy and the schadenfreude fair flows when the mighty fall, but I'm not sure, with possible exception of Lewis Hamilton, that anyone else mentioned has been unjustifiably chopped down to size. They stopped performing and disintegrated.

Fernando Torres, Alistair Cook, almost anyone who has ever played rugby for Wales.

Macaloon

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

I mean everybody likes a feeding frenzy and the schadenfreude fair flows when the mighty fall, but I'm not sure, with possible exception of Lewis Hamilton, that anyone else mentioned has been unjustifiably chopped down to size. They stopped performing and disintegrated.

Fernando Torres

How so? Hasn't Fernando auto-chopped through injury and carelessly mislaying his dealer, Alonso?

RichN95.

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

I mean everybody likes a feeding frenzy and the schadenfreude fair flows when the mighty fall, but I'm not sure, with possible exception of Lewis Hamilton, that anyone else mentioned has been unjustifiably chopped down to size. They stopped performing and disintegrated.

Fernando Torres

How so? Hasn't Fernando auto-chopped through injury and carelessly mislaying his dealer, Alonso?

You'll have to say that in plain English I'm afraid

Macaloon

Drivel

Macaloon

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

I mean everybody likes a feeding frenzy and the schadenfreude fair flows when the mighty fall, but I'm not sure, with possible exception of Lewis Hamilton, that anyone else mentioned has been unjustifiably chopped down to size. They stopped performing and disintegrated.

Fernando Torres

How so? Hasn't Fernando auto-chopped through injury and carelessly mislaying his dealer, Alonso?

You'll have to say that in plain English I'm afraid

Can't get my head around those nested quotes. What I meant was:

Hasn't Fernando just suffered a decline in performance as a result of injuries and the departure of his chief supplier of accurate passes, Alonso? I don't see where he is being unjustifiably pilloried merely because he had the audacity to look world class for a short period.

mroli

Fernando Torres was for a short time last year the current (as part of his team):
World Champion
European Champion
European Cup Winner
Europa League Winner
(Poss even FA Cup as well, but not sure if the timings work).

People who say he is shot are way off the mark (not a Spain or a Chelsea fan btw).

gattocattivo

mroli wrote:

Fernando Torres was for a short time last year the current (as part of his team):
World Champion
European Champion
European Cup Winner
Europa League Winner
(Poss even FA Cup as well, but not sure if the timings work).

People who say he is shot are way off the mark (not a Spain or a Chelsea fan btw).

That proves absolutely nothing other than that Chelsea are a good cup team and Spain have a very strong national side. Torres went from being great to being absoutely shocking and has now improved to being slightly worse than alright but nowhere near as bad as he was (and nowhere near as good as he was before that).

Walter White

mroli wrote:

Fernando Torres was for a short time last year the current (as part of his team):
World Champion
European Champion
European Cup Winner
Europa League Winner
(Poss even FA Cup as well, but not sure if the timings work).

People who say he is shot are way off the mark (not a Spain or a Chelsea fan btw).

No, they really are not, hes nowhere near the player he was at Liverpool, not even half the player he was, anyone should be able to see that.

Just because hes been in squads that have had success doesn't mean hes a great player or played any major part in the success, only the Europa league in that list did he have a proper part to play.

Walter White

GingerMagician wrote:

Walter White wrote:

I can see something like 1 more year on the road in 2014 with Sky seeing out his contact and then bailing out back to the track with the goal of going out with a bang in Rio, it would certainly be a fitting way to end a great career if he could grab another gold medal or 2.

Not a chance IMO, given no individual pursuit in the programme. Wont be happy with just the Team Pursuit and can't see him doing the Omnium.

Sure i read somewhere that the individual pursuit will be back for Rio, even if not theres the time trial and team pursuit, 2 definate possibilities unless they clash.

jerry3571

I think he's heading off to to Andy Schrek world. Once you lost you Mojo; it's a tough one to get back.

Also let's not forget that we're not talking about Eddy Merckx here. He won a Tour but he's more like a Sastre, Evans, Riis, Pantani; if the stars align then fantastic but otherwise a reason will come up to foil his chances. I could lump Froomey in with this lot too.
I never thought I would ever see a GB winner of the Tour so I'm happy for him and for Uk Cycling. Still big numbers at our Club Runs so it's all good.

It makes Armstrong's achievements looks all the more impressive. He didn't get sick, get injured, fall off, get delayed by crashes, only in 2005 he was slightly under prepared but otherwise he was always on great form for 7 years. He had a leg up from Hein and Fat Pat but otherwise was an amazing talent. (I can hear the rumble of apoplectic stamping of computer keys; Hee Hee!)

Tom Butcher

Only in the UK would we suggest the current Tour champion is finished on the road and go and ride the track ! OK I know no other Tour winner has Wiggo's pedigree on the track but the best endurance riders prove it on the road in the big races, that is where reputations and money are made.

Wiggins may not get another contract like his Sky contract but surely he is still worth a good contract as a team leader - if we assume Sky see their future GC riders as Froome, Porte and others. Was he lying about his power numbers pre Giro? I just think he was under raced and his head was in the wrong place but physically you don't lose it that quickly.

Richmond Racer

People close to him think the next 2 months are critical in terms of him continuing his career. There seems to be a real concern that he could jack it in. He's finding it hellishly difficult picking himself up post -Giro, added to the physical stuff like the knee, and then being told by Brailsford that he's not even no 2 but no 3 in pecking order..

This is why Shane Sutton's trying to galvanise him via the media. Sutton's not given to casual public utterances, yet he's given several interviews in the last few days.

Taking Sean Yates and Shane Sutton away from him this year has also hit him hard IMO. As has everything going wrong that could go wrong. Wiggins is an athlete who functions best in order and with everything going to plan. His confidence is predicated on successful momentum - and there's been bugger all of that this year. It all hinges on whether he has the appetite to bounce back, to train like a monk for more months, it's all predicated on that.

I've been a big fan dating back to Athens and I don't like seeing what's happening. But without being inside Wiggins head, I'd say it's 50/50 whether he'll pack it in. One things for sure. He's not going to spend next year doing an Andy Schleck.

Squirrelpie

I think Wiggins was upset by all the finger pointing from the twaliban and Kimmage after winning the tour.
He must have suffered from mixed emotions after it ended. He did say he enjoyed the Olympic win more than the tour which seems very odd considering the tour was a much bigger achievement.
His motivation to defend the tour must have been dented and I think that was a major factor in his decision to target the Giro as it doesn't generate the same sensationalism. Later realized he really wanted to defend the yellow jersey by which time it was two late to change plan as it was already organized by team sky. I think Brad just talked himself up hoping the giro would boost his condition, and all would some how fall back into place.

Jez mon

I'm not sure I can see him riding anywhere else but Sky to be honest...

And at the same time, Sky only have one GT winner amongst their riders, and whilst they have a number of other guys who have the required cycling talent, so far, they haven't actually proven their ability...Furthermore, cycling is about shifting a product, and even if Froome is to win in July, I predict Wiggo will still be the bigger superstar...

mike6

As Eddy Merckx said, when you are a champion you have a duty to ride, as the public want to see you. I doubt motivation has anything to do with Brads problems. He was ill, now he is injured. Also he is on a huge salary, Sky would not pay there most marketable asset to sit at home doing nothing if he was fit and well.

dennisn

mike6 wrote:

As Eddy Merckx said, when you are a champion you have a duty to ride, as the public want to see you. I doubt motivation has anything to do with Brads problems. He was ill, now he is injured. Also he is on a huge salary, Sky would not pay there most marketable asset to sit at home doing nothing if he was fit and well.

I would think that his contract would be like many sports contracts and include "performance incentive money". He would make a hell of a lot more money IF he was playing in the game and even more IF he was playing well and most likely a bit more yet IF he could come up with a win.

iainf72

Here's my take

Wiggins is at that age where he's not going to get any better, only start to decline. Froome and Porte are both younger. Wiggins can be "difficult" and probably requires more managing than either Froome or Porte (despite people thinking MC is a gobby cow, I doubt that has any impact on the Sky management, and I gather they didn't dislike her on the team)

So for the team, it makes sense to back those guys and retain their services.

ocdupalais

iainf72 wrote:

Froome and Porte...
for the team, it makes sense to back those guys and retain their services.

Also, the level they're at now - if you were Sky management would you want them riding against you on another team?

Richmond Racer

OCDuPalais wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Froome and Porte...
for the team, it makes sense to back those guys and retain their services.

Also, the level they're at now - if you were Sky management would you want them riding against you on another team?

All true and fair points

mike6

Very true and very fair points, but Wiggins is the hot property this year because of what he did last year. I still dont believe his injury is political, it would make no sense for either him or Sky not to make the most of his marketability this year. I can't see him losing that much natural ability since last July. Age will catch up, but not that quickly.

Wiggo Warrior

Squirrelpie wrote:

He must have suffered from mixed emotions after it ended. He did say he enjoyed the Olympic win more than the tour which seems very odd considering the tour was a much bigger achievement.

I don't think it was a bigger achievement for him, as when he was interviewed after the Giro Time Trial it was the Olympic's Time Trial he referenced that he would have been inconsolable if the puncture had happened to him then, not the Tour. If he had had the equivalent puncture in the first time trial at the the tour the whole complexion of the race would probably have changed since Froome would have been much closer to the lead, as would Cadel and Nibali. Geraint Thomas has also been quoted as saying that if he could only be either a successful road cyclist or have the Olympics he would choose the latter. I don't know whether it is just very efficient brainwashing but in the BC circle at least the priority is set...