Richmond Park, roundabouts and that f*cking Dynamo

roger_merriman

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

Has anyone considered that if the driver hadn't been as attentive and forgiving as DDD* was there might have been a rather nastily smashed group of Dynamos all up in that cars grill? that's more the point that being delayed by a little, in a chain gang they would have very little time to react esp at 25mph plus. It's the cyclist at the front who's made the call to be a jerk

Inconsiderate cycling just causes more of an us and them attitude which we should all agree isn't the way to go

*I think I've just been sick in my mouth

Nope. Nor (unless I missed it in all the excitement) that had the roles been tweaked a bit, such that it had been one of us cycling where DDD's car was, and an Addison Lee cab had pulled across us on the roundabout, then a rant about "F*cking Addison Lee Drivers" would not have precipitated "Ah, come on, you can't say that about *all* AL drivers..."

I have to admit that I find the suggestion that LDs should have special treatment in RP without it at the same time being closed to other traffic, and the speed limit suspended, surprising. To say the least.

Same here, while it might have always have been so, why is it so? What do they give back to the parks?

Very few folks do race/TT and arguably LD chaingangs are a negitive presence to the rest of traffic be that cars or bikes.

vermin

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

I have to admit that I find the suggestion that LDs should have special treatment in RP without it at the same time being closed to other traffic, and the speed limit suspended, surprising. To say the least.

I don't recall seeing anyone suggesting that, but LD shouldn't "have special treatment in RP " and they don't. The police point their space guns right at our chain gangs whenever they are there.

greg66_tri_v2.0

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

That roundabout is only just in from the gate, so travelling anticlockwise, you don't get a huge amount of warning (travelling at 25mph) .

Is that Cancellara's corner?

Nope.



The RR re-entered at Kingston Gate heading north to Richmond Gate. The grey dotted line is the road. The right turn at Richmond Gate is Cancellara Corner. The RR exited at Roehampton Gate.

DDD entered at Roehampton Gate. You enter through an old iron gate and then 20 yards in you hit a roundabout (two exits: left and straight over). DDD was heading straight over, to Richmond Gate. The LDs were coming from Robin Hood Gate, and turning left to head to Richmond Gate (ie circulating anti-clockwise).

This be in that thar London, in case you were wondering. So the surfaces are all covered in new fangled tarmacadam (except for the cobbles), and there's no excrement in the gutters.

vermin

Clever Pun wrote:

vermin wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

Has anyone considered that if the driver hadn't been as attentive and forgiving as DDD* was there might have been a rather nastily smashed group of Dynamos all up in that cars grill? that's more the point that being delayed by a little, in a chain gang they would have very little time to react esp at 25mph plus. It's the cyclist at the front who's made the call to be a jerk

Inconsiderate cycling just causes more of an us and them attitude which we should all agree isn't the way to go

*I think I've just been sick in my mouth

I think everyone agrees with this. Some of us (I) just felt he might have handled the aftermath with a little more civility, instead of mouthing off with obscenities. Some suggested a private word with the club would have been more appropriate; others suggested he might have just given fellow cyclists some slack. No-one defended the actions of the cyclists - without seeing the incident, how could anyone defend them?

you could do with being a bit less prissy about the whole thing too

I think it's since I changed my avatar to a pussy.

okgo

Its not easy, but its certainly possible, if you actually want to that is...

pinkbikini

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

I have to admit that I find the suggestion that LDs should have special treatment in RP without it at the same time being closed to other traffic, and the speed limit suspended, surprising. To say the least.

Don't think anyone has suggested this (although I may have missed it in the previous gazillion pages!)
LD have to run reduced group sizes and stick to the rules of the road in order to run the park ride. If our groups are seen to be too big or badly behaved we can't run the ride. That's the special treatment we get from the Royal Parks. Others aren't constrained by this and can ride in groups of 20 with no repercussions.

Just in case it wasn't abundantly clear, the riders should have slowed and stopped in the original example. We keep briefing pre-ride and will continue to do so. I think the rides are far better behaved than they used to be, but there's always room for improvement.

Oh, and I've never been in a group that approaches those roundabouts at 25mph. Maybe 15mph and slowing if there's any chance of traffic. I'm rarely in one of the faster groups these days though...

roger_merriman

vermin wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

Has anyone considered that if the driver hadn't been as attentive and forgiving as DDD* was there might have been a rather nastily smashed group of Dynamos all up in that cars grill? that's more the point that being delayed by a little, in a chain gang they would have very little time to react esp at 25mph plus. It's the cyclist at the front who's made the call to be a jerk

Inconsiderate cycling just causes more of an us and them attitude which we should all agree isn't the way to go

*I think I've just been sick in my mouth

I think everyone agrees with this. Some of us (I) just felt he might have handled the aftermath with a little more civility, instead of mouthing off with obscenities. Some suggested a private word with the club would have been more appropriate; others suggested he might have just given fellow cyclists some slack. No-one defended the actions of the cyclists - without seeing the incident, how could anyone defend them?

Why should he keep it private? if the club wants less London Dynamo type threads here and else where - then they need to either move the Chaingangs to quieter times or fix the behavior of the chaingangs.

London Dynamo are not known for replying and reputation as a club goes before them if the club wanted to fix this they could, that they don't means they more than likely don't care. Thats why I CC'd the Parks when I had cause to email London Dynamo as I had no faith that with out that bit of embarrassment they would have got a response otherwise.

greg66_tri_v2.0

vermin wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

I have to admit that I find the suggestion that LDs should have special treatment in RP without it at the same time being closed to other traffic, and the speed limit suspended, surprising. To say the least.

I don't recall seeing anyone suggesting that, but LD shouldn't "have special treatment in RP " and they don't. The police point their space guns right at our chain gangs whenever they are there.

Ahem.

LD chain gangs should have right of way when they aren't entitled to it:

BigMat wrote:

You know RP is a cycling mecca on a weekend, as a cyclist I find it pretty disappointing that you were doing that at all. To then take such umbrage with what sounds like a quick group of cyclists not wanting to have to stop and give way to you at that roundabout - must have made all of 10 seconds difference to your journey, whereas they would have had to all stop (always a risky thing in a chaingang moving at pace), let you go (and however many cars might have been behind you) and lose all their momentum in the process.

LD chain gangs riding over the speed limit is ok (nowadays, ironically, it's the cars that abide by the limit in RP, and some slower cyclists):

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

LD chain gangs deserve special treatment for their educational value to those in them:

vermin wrote:

Group riding helps nodders to gain invaluable riding skills, which will benefit them and other road users. However, when starting out, it can be dangerous and/or intimidating and I would suggest that the relative safety of the park is a good place to learn those skills. Yes, it may get in the way of other cyclists, but other cyclists might recognise the greater good that is being done. Further, I know this is a hostage to fortune but, the Dynamo really are only there for a couple of hours a week, so other riders could cut them some slack and work around the 'problem'.

Rules of the road don't apply to LD chain gangs because, well, it would slow them down I suppose:

BigMat wrote:

Most cyclists on the road in Richmond Park exceed 20mph. They just do. My understanding is that Dynamo have an unwritten agreement with the Park authorities that they will turn a blind eye to the club rides exceeding 20mph as long as they generally behave themselves and act in a safe and courteous manner. On this occasion, they technically should have given way, but unless I've misunderstood it sounds like they delayed DDD by all of about 5 seconds - why he couldn't just cut them some slack is beyond me.

I appreciate that RP is a great facility, and possibly one of the few places inside the M25 that's suitable for chaingangs. But it's a shared facility. It's not a velodrome or a closed road under private hire. It's the public road, and the rules of the road apply. The rider on the front ought to have slowed the gang, but even if he didn't the other 8, 9? have eyes, and must have realised that it wasn't safe to proceed.

How is this different to a pair of SCR combatants deep in battle charging through a red light?

vermin

roger merriman wrote:

vermin wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

Has anyone considered that if the driver hadn't been as attentive and forgiving as DDD* was there might have been a rather nastily smashed group of Dynamos all up in that cars grill? that's more the point that being delayed by a little, in a chain gang they would have very little time to react esp at 25mph plus. It's the cyclist at the front who's made the call to be a jerk

Inconsiderate cycling just causes more of an us and them attitude which we should all agree isn't the way to go

*I think I've just been sick in my mouth

I think everyone agrees with this. Some of us (I) just felt he might have handled the aftermath with a little more civility, instead of mouthing off with obscenities. Some suggested a private word with the club would have been more appropriate; others suggested he might have just given fellow cyclists some slack. No-one defended the actions of the cyclists - without seeing the incident, how could anyone defend them?

Why should he keep it private? if the club wants less London Dynamo type threads here and else where - then they need to either move the Chaingangs to quieter times or fix the behavior of the chaingangs.

London Dynamo are not known for replying and reputation as a club goes before them if the club wanted to fix this they could, that they don't means they more than likely don't care. Thats why I CC'd the Parks when I had cause to email London Dynamo as I had no faith that with out that bit of embarrassment they would have got a response otherwise.

Why should he keep it private? I guess you and I just have differing values and ethics. No point arguing about it.

The Dynamo works and liaises with the police and with the royal parks. As pinkbikini said, they have to adhere to stricter rules than other cyclists and park users, and are judged to a higher standard.

bigmat

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

vermin wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

I have to admit that I find the suggestion that LDs should have special treatment in RP without it at the same time being closed to other traffic, and the speed limit suspended, surprising. To say the least.

I don't recall seeing anyone suggesting that, but LD shouldn't "have special treatment in RP " and they don't. The police point their space guns right at our chain gangs whenever they are there.

Ahem.

LD chain gangs should have right of way when they aren't entitled to it:

BigMat wrote:

You know RP is a cycling mecca on a weekend, as a cyclist I find it pretty disappointing that you were doing that at all. To then take such umbrage with what sounds like a quick group of cyclists not wanting to have to stop and give way to you at that roundabout - must have made all of 10 seconds difference to your journey, whereas they would have had to all stop (always a risky thing in a chaingang moving at pace), let you go (and however many cars might have been behind you) and lose all their momentum in the process.

LD chain gangs riding over the speed limit is ok (nowadays, ironically, it's the cars that abide by the limit in RP, and some slower cyclists):

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

LD chain gangs deserve special treatment for their educational value to those in them:

vermin wrote:

Group riding helps nodders to gain invaluable riding skills, which will benefit them and other road users. However, when starting out, it can be dangerous and/or intimidating and I would suggest that the relative safety of the park is a good place to learn those skills. Yes, it may get in the way of other cyclists, but other cyclists might recognise the greater good that is being done. Further, I know this is a hostage to fortune but, the Dynamo really are only there for a couple of hours a week, so other riders could cut them some slack and work around the 'problem'.

Rules of the road don't apply to LD chain gangs because, well, it would slow them down I suppose:

BigMat wrote:

Most cyclists on the road in Richmond Park exceed 20mph. They just do. My understanding is that Dynamo have an unwritten agreement with the Park authorities that they will turn a blind eye to the club rides exceeding 20mph as long as they generally behave themselves and act in a safe and courteous manner. On this occasion, they technically should have given way, but unless I've misunderstood it sounds like they delayed DDD by all of about 5 seconds - why he couldn't just cut them some slack is beyond me.

I appreciate that RP is a great facility, and possibly one of the few places inside the M25 that's suitable for chaingangs. But it's a shared facility. It's not a velodrome or a closed road under private hire. It's the public road, and the rules of the road apply. The rider on the front ought to have slowed the gang, but even if he didn't the other 8, 9? have eyes, and must have realised that it wasn't safe to proceed.

How is this different to a pair of SCR combatants deep in battle charging through a red light?

Re the points I have made, on the first one I'm not actually saying what you suggest I'm saying. On the second one I may well be wrong - I have no involvement with Dynamo, its just something I thought I heard once.

Only posting as I have been quoted directly - had otherwise taken the view that there isn't a lot to say on an incident I didn't witness.

DonDaddyD

Why should he keep it private? I guess you and I just have differing values and ethics.

The only reason you want me to keep it quiet is because you don't want bad things about your club said publicly.

If I encountered bad driving from a bus driver/cab driver etc and I posted that here I wouldn't expect people to say "keep it private and contact them directly". Your position on this is ridiculous. Not least of which it suggests that refuse to acknowledge that your club are solely responsibile for their public image and what people say about them.

vermin

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

vermin wrote:

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

I have to admit that I find the suggestion that LDs should have special treatment in RP without it at the same time being closed to other traffic, and the speed limit suspended, surprising. To say the least.

I don't recall seeing anyone suggesting that, but LD shouldn't "have special treatment in RP " and they don't. The police point their space guns right at our chain gangs whenever they are there.

Ahem.

LD chain gangs should have right of way when they aren't entitled to it:

BigMat wrote:

You know RP is a cycling mecca on a weekend, as a cyclist I find it pretty disappointing that you were doing that at all. To then take such umbrage with what sounds like a quick group of cyclists not wanting to have to stop and give way to you at that roundabout - must have made all of 10 seconds difference to your journey, whereas they would have had to all stop (always a risky thing in a chaingang moving at pace), let you go (and however many cars might have been behind you) and lose all their momentum in the process.

LD chain gangs riding over the speed limit is ok (nowadays, ironically, it's the cars that abide by the limit in RP, and some slower cyclists):

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

LD chain gangs deserve special treatment for their educational value to those in them:

vermin wrote:

Group riding helps nodders to gain invaluable riding skills, which will benefit them and other road users. However, when starting out, it can be dangerous and/or intimidating and I would suggest that the relative safety of the park is a good place to learn those skills. Yes, it may get in the way of other cyclists, but other cyclists might recognise the greater good that is being done. Further, I know this is a hostage to fortune but, the Dynamo really are only there for a couple of hours a week, so other riders could cut them some slack and work around the 'problem'.

Rules of the road don't apply to LD chain gangs because, well, it would slow them down I suppose:

BigMat wrote:

Most cyclists on the road in Richmond Park exceed 20mph. They just do. My understanding is that Dynamo have an unwritten agreement with the Park authorities that they will turn a blind eye to the club rides exceeding 20mph as long as they generally behave themselves and act in a safe and courteous manner. On this occasion, they technically should have given way, but unless I've misunderstood it sounds like they delayed DDD by all of about 5 seconds - why he couldn't just cut them some slack is beyond me.

I appreciate that RP is a great facility, and possibly one of the few places inside the M25 that's suitable for chaingangs. But it's a shared facility. It's not a velodrome or a closed road under private hire. It's the public road, and the rules of the road apply. The rider on the front ought to have slowed the gang, but even if he didn't the other 8, 9? have eyes, and must have realised that it wasn't safe to proceed.

How is this different to a pair of SCR combatants deep in battle charging through a red light?

Come on Mr 66,

1. BigMat went a bit further than I would, but his comment, in its proper context, was a riposte to a rather inflamatory post. Further, he continued to say " Fine, you had right of way, but as a cyclist I would have let them go every time anyway " which doesn't really support your assertion that BigMat, or anyone else had claimed that LD chain gangs should have right of way when they aren't entitled to it.

2. I made no admission in this statement, but I'm not sure it's in the bests interests of all cyclists that use the park, for reaction, commuting, or otherwise for you to pursue this.

3. My statement simply sets out my belief that close riding might help cyclists to develop their bike handling skills. It has nothing to do with LD chain gangs deserving special treatment or otherwise.

4. Big Mat is incorrect in this statement, as already clarified in this thread by two Dynamos.

It is indeed a shared facility, however, it seems there is a section of society that wishes to prevent one group from using it as such, despite the fact that such use is condoned and supported by the police and the royal parks authority.

If DDD's account is correct and on the assumption that it was safe to do so taking into account all other factors, you are correct that, the cyclists probably should have stopped.

How is this different to a pair of SCR combatants deep in battle charging through a red light? I don't know. It sounds to me like the scenario described by DDD was a mistake, an accident. When two SCR combatants run a red, they will have ignored the rather more obvious warning signals of amber and red lights. In any event, when such events are witnessed, they are usually ignored or, at worst, they elicit a cheeky wink in the SCR thread. They do not generally elicit a torrent of abuse.

vermin

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why should he keep it private? I guess you and I just have differing values and ethics.

The only reason you want me to keep it quiet is because you don't want bad things about your club said publicly.

You are so deluded.

DonDaddyD wrote:

If I encountered bad driving from a bus driver/cab driver etc and I posted that here I wouldn't expect people to say "keep it private and contact them directly". Your position on this is ridiculous. Not least of which it suggests that refuse to acknowledge that your club are solely responsibile for their public image and what people say about them.

I haven't even been asked the question. :roll:

roger_merriman

vermin wrote:

Why should he keep it private? I guess you and I just have differing values and ethics. No point arguing about it.

It is only a Club, and one with a very poor reputation*, for their behavior on the road in the park. being embarrassed on forums is probably a better response than how ever polite email back.

vermin wrote:

The Dynamo works and liaises with the police and with the royal parks. As pinkbikini said, they have to adhere to stricter rules than other cyclists and park users, and are judged to a higher standard.

What stricter rules would these be?

On the whole London Dynamo do not give the impression of one who is being judged to a higher standard, they seem to get some allowances.

* well aware in others such as womans racing they have a good reputation, but the point still stands.

rubertoe

tailwindhome

Do London Dynamo organise a Saturday morning chaingang which breaks the speed limit in the park?

tailwindhome

Greg66 Tri v2.0 wrote:

So the surfaces are all covered in new fangled tarmacadam (except for the cobbles), and there's no excrement in the gutters.

That's not the impression I got from reading the posts on this forum.....

pinkbikini

roger merriman wrote:

It is only a Club, and one with a very poor reputation*, for their behavior on the road in the park. being embarrassed on forums is probably a better response than how ever polite email back.

[/quote]

Why would it be 'better', Roger? Please think about your answer before you reply. Or, preferably, PM me. Thanks. Nick.

asprilla

pinkbikini wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

It is only a Club, and one with a very poor reputation*, for their behavior on the road in the park. being embarrassed on forums is probably a better response than how ever polite email back.

Why would it be 'better', Roger? Please think about your answer before you reply. Or, preferably, PM me. Thanks. Nick.[/quote]

Maybe because it results in a response whereas both Roger and I have sent emails to the club before and been met with silence?

I don't see how it can be worse to post here than send an email so what difference does it make to the poster?

notsoblue

Asprilla wrote:

I don't see how it can be worse to post here than send an email so what difference does it make to the poster?

I'd imagine that if you were a LD and you had to keep hearing the anti dynamo circlejerk on this forum it might wear a bit thin. Its a large club that is very visible in the area, I don't think theres anything specific about it that makes all their members deserving of blame for the behaviour of a few.

asprilla

Yes, it's worse for LD to have someone post instead of emailing them but where is the motivation to email them? Posting here is much easier than going and finding an email address that you might not get a response from. If you want someone to do things through your channels then you have to make it worth their while.

roger_merriman

notsoblue wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

I don't see how it can be worse to post here than send an email so what difference does it make to the poster?

I'd imagine that if you were a LD and you had to keep hearing the anti dynamo circlejerk on this forum it might wear a bit thin. Its a large club that is very visible in the area, I don't think theres anything specific about it that makes all their members deserving of blame for the behaviour of a few.

The specific is using Richmond Park for chain gangs on the weekend it's not difficult to see even if run with the best care in the world that it's going to rub some people up the wrong way, the park is a lot busier than it ever was, and so on.

again these are not new issues they could move to earlier times or what ever.

roger_merriman

pinkbikini wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

It is only a Club, and one with a very poor reputation*, for their behavior on the road in the park. being embarrassed on forums is probably a better response than how ever polite email back.

pinkbikini wrote:

Why would it be 'better', Roger? Please think about your answer before you reply. Or, preferably, PM me. Thanks. Nick.

Why would I want to take it to private? to be honest if the worse that happens is a bit of public griping on social media, it might be embarrassing but that is about it. For the record the only time I did email London Dynamo they did email back after a few days. But equally I mentioned it on social media, why not? would I email again? yes the reply was perfectly civil and about as much as you could expect, but equally I see no good reason to not mention it on social media.

the odd mistake happens from time to time and well the odd dumb move by a folk in club kit is in my view not something to worry about, the only time I did contact was for a traffic impact with a London Dynamo

A club that wanted to be contacted would have a contact email address on their website, not just membership. But if people want a rant because some club cut them up on a roundabout well clearly social media is a easier option, if they do email what can you say but "sorry?"

pinkbikini

And what benefit comes from mentioning it on social media Roger? Fine if you didn't get the response you requested by actually engaging in a personal dialogue, but that wasn't the case was it? What are you trying to achieve?

pinkbikini

Asprilla wrote:

Maybe because it results in a response whereas both Roger and I have sent emails to the club before and been met with silence?

Read Roger's reply - he said he did receive an email back.

TheEnglishman

12 pages...


TWELVE pages...... :roll:

Some of you really should get out a bit more!

asprilla

pinkbikini wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

Maybe because it results in a response whereas both Roger and I have sent emails to the club before and been met with silence?

Read Roger's reply - he said he did receive an email back.

I was speaking from my personal experience.

Paul E

I'm running out of popcorn, what other snack type foods can I eat?

What happened to Jaws and Kong too, did Jaws eat Kong whole?

cyclingprop

pinkbikini wrote:

And what benefit comes from mentioning it on social media Roger? Fine if you didn't get the response you requested by actually engaging in a personal dialogue, but that wasn't the case was it? What are you trying to achieve?

Roger 1 - Pinky 0

Paul E wrote:

I'm running out of popcorn, what other snack type foods can I eat?

What happened to Jaws and Kong too, did Jaws eat Kong whole?

Did you miss the frickin' laser enema?

Paul E

I did that was posted, does that mean Jaws won on points or was it won with a prolapse