Richmond Park, roundabouts and that f*cking Dynamo

bigmat

I'm with Vermin. Firstly, DDD why were you using the Park as a cut through? Definitely a case of being part of the problem not the solution. You know RP is a cycling mecca on a weekend, as a cyclist I find it pretty disappointing that you were doing that at all. To then take such umbrage with what sounds like a quick group of cyclists not wanting to have to stop and give way to you at that roundabout - must have made all of 10 seconds difference to your journey, whereas they would have had to all stop (always a risky thing in a chaingang moving at pace), let you go (and however many cars might have been behind you) and lose all their momentum in the process. Fine, you had right of way, but as a cyclist I would have let them go every time anyway - show a bit of manners and understanding for people who are just trying to get in some decent training in this busy city. Honestly, I find this thread really disappointing.

vermin

DonDaddyD wrote:

vermin wrote:

@DDD

Grow up.

So you are advocating cyclists ignore the rules of the road?

That's ridiculous, even by your standards :roll:

keyser__soze

Why the need to swear in the title of the thread? Sure, the riding probably left something to be desired, but are you still so angry about it this long after the event or was it just a 'look at me' post title? Shall we all start reporting every incident of bad behaviour by identifiable sub-groups - "Brick lane, pedestrian crossings and that f*cking hipster" or "New Kings Road and that c*nt taxi pulling out into traffic" - as new threads?

alan_sherman

I'm surprised how many people think it is OK to ride out infront of a car (or another bike) that has right of way on a roundabout. Happens all the time in the park, and it isn't only the Dynamos. These people risk the rest of us who are responsible having cycling access to the park restricted.

Thanks.

asprilla

alan sherman wrote:

I'm surprised how many people think it is OK to ride out infront of a car (or another bike) that has right of way on a roundabout. Happens all the time in the park, and it isn't only the Dynamos. These people risk the rest of us who are responsible having cycling access to the park restricted.

Thanks.

Me too. Like it or not its a road that's open to motorised traffic and the rules are the same as everywhere else.

Paulie W

BigMat wrote:

I'm with Vermin. Firstly, DDD why were you using the Park as a cut through? Definitely a case of being part of the problem not the solution. You know RP is a cycling mecca on a weekend, as a cyclist I find it pretty disappointing that you were doing that at all. To then take such umbrage with what sounds like a quick group of cyclists not wanting to have to stop and give way to you at that roundabout - must have made all of 10 seconds difference to your journey, whereas they would have had to all stop (always a risky thing in a chaingang moving at pace), let you go (and however many cars might have been behind you) and lose all their momentum in the process. Fine, you had right of way, but as a cyclist I would have let them go every time anyway - show a bit of manners and understanding for people who are just trying to get in some decent training in this busy city. Honestly, I find this thread really disappointing.

Regardless of whether DDD as a cyclist was out of order for using RP as a cut through, this doesn't really stand up to scrutiny does it?!

vermin

Asprilla wrote:

alan sherman wrote:

I'm surprised how many people think it is OK to ride out infront of a car (or another bike) that has right of way on a roundabout. Happens all the time in the park, and it isn't only the Dynamos. These people risk the rest of us who are responsible having cycling access to the park restricted.

Thanks.

Me too. Like it or not its a road that's open to motorised traffic and the rules are the same as everywhere else.

But don't you see the irony of what you (ok, it's mostly DDD, but you are joining in) are doing here? One or two people make mistakes or cycle poorly and you brand the whole club with the same iron. Doesn't that sound a little similar to the attitude of certain drivers towards the entire cycling community as a result of seeing the odd London cyclist RLJs? Of course not all Dynamos are perfect all the time.

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

vermin wrote:

@DDD

Grow up.

So you are advocating cyclists ignore the rules of the road?

vermin wrote:

Then report the incident to the club committee. Why set out to publicly destroy the name and funding of the club?

Who is setting out to 'publicly destroy the name and funding of a club?' Talk about sensationalising one post, which in a week will probably drop off the page.

Why should I consider the damage my post might cause to the reputation of their club? Why should I be responsible for this?

Surely they should be responsible for their actions that directly correlate to upholding said reputation. Perhaps they shouldn't ride in such an agressive and dangerous way?

The Stone wrote:

I hate the Dynamos, but I also hate people who use the park as a cut through to avoid the traffic.

Whether you disagree or agree with vehicular access to the park is not the issue here. The fact is that the park is accessible by motorised vehicles and all road users should adhere to the rules of the roads.

Not giving way at a roundabout really gets my back up, so on that basic point, I'm with DDD. RP is not exclusively, or even primarily for cyclists as was pointed out on another thread. If riders - Dynamo or otherwise - don't want to be 'held up' by other road users, then either get up earlier, or go to a proper circuit.

That said, DDD, of course you are responsible for slating the club online - you can't just shift the responsibility because they - or more accurately a small number of their members - caused you some inconvenience.

tailwindhome

Seems to me as an outsider that this Richmond park isn't a suitable place for a chaingang training at speed.


Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

vermin

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

vermin

Unintentional post

alan_sherman

Tailwind - You are right. The park when busy is of little use for training. It has a 20 mph speed limit that applies to bicycles, and gets busy with cars.

Saturday morning is now ridiculously busy, especially if the sun comes out after a wet spell. Not suitable for a chain gang in my opinion, but it is a free country and as long as the group follows the rules of the road best of luck to them.

tailwindhome

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

eh?

Why would I do that?

rubertoe

Glad i dont live near RP - sounds like an awful place what with roundabouts, deer, cars and cyclists. (oh and DDD it would appear).

I'll stick to the quiet lanes of Herts thanks.

(oh and surely this just inflames the "war" - lets get along people.)

vermin

TailWindHome wrote:

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

eh?

Why would I do that?

Same reason as you posed the question, presumably.

vermin

rubertoe wrote:

Glad i dont live near RP - sounds like an awful place what with roundabouts, deer, cars and cyclists. (oh and DDD it would appear).

I'll stick to the quiet lanes of Herts thanks.

(oh and surely this just inflames the "war" - lets get along people.)

Well said. It seems it's not enough for some people to try to create rifts between cyclists and motorists; they have to try to spoil a nice ride for other cyclists too.

tailwindhome

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

eh?

Why would I do that?

Same reason as you posed the question, presumably.

You're not making sense here.

vermin

TailWindHome wrote:

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

eh?

Why would I do that?

Same reason as you posed the question, presumably.

You're not making sense here.

Oh, sorry.

SteppenHerring

People, people we must stop fighting amongst ourselves. We should be united against the common enemy - Norwood Paragon.

tailwindhome

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

vermin wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Is there not a speed limit in the park? Or is that disregarded too?

Check Strava for evidence of compliance with speed limits by Dynamo members and other cyclists. Let me know if Dynamo are in any way extraordinary.

eh?

Why would I do that?

Same reason as you posed the question, presumably.

You're not making sense here.

Oh, sorry.

Let's start again.

I'm suggesting that a public park on a Saturday morning isn't a suitable place for chain-gang style riding. Now my understanding is that the whole point of chain-gang riding is that it's done at race pace 25-35mph.

I'm asking if there is a speed limit in the park? And do the club organise a ride knowing this speed limit and disregarding it anyway.

An analysis of Strava data is of no real relevance.



Unless it's a really slow chain gang

il_principe

IMHO - both in the wrong. I have to say though that I'm not a fan of the Dynamo and their behaviour in the park. I've had several run-ins with their chaingangs in the past, doing things like attempting a pass on a hill (Sawyers is a classic for this), failing and then swallowing me up, often swerving back in, forcing me to drop the pace, failing to shout warnings, passing too close etc. A friend of mine (who is one of these iromnen lunatics has had a few shouting matches with them when he's been cut up). It's pretty annoying when you're out training and they mess with your plans due to a lack of consideration (and IME with some of them, poor riding skills). I don't really think RP is the place to be doing chain gangs, certainly not as late in the day as theirs seem to have become recently. I've never had any issues with say the Wheelers - who IFAIK do their chaingangs outside of the park. Like it or not Vermin, but the Dynamo do have a bit of a reputation for poor behaviour and a lack of etiquette. I'm not tarring them all with the same brush, and am well aware that they have many excellent riders, but when you are in the kit and you do something stupid, people notice. I get the impression that they attract quite a lot of newbie riders, which is great, but some of these people need to practice group riding somewhere a little less congested than a busy London Park.

asprilla

vermin wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

alan sherman wrote:

I'm surprised how many people think it is OK to ride out infront of a car (or another bike) that has right of way on a roundabout. Happens all the time in the park, and it isn't only the Dynamos. These people risk the rest of us who are responsible having cycling access to the park restricted.

Thanks.

Me too. Like it or not its a road that's open to motorised traffic and the rules are the same as everywhere else.

But don't you see the irony of what you (ok, it's mostly DDD, but you are joining in) are doing here? One or two people make mistakes or cycle poorly and you brand the whole club with the same iron. Doesn't that sound a little similar to the attitude of certain drivers towards the entire cycling community as a result of seeing the odd London cyclist RLJs? Of course not all Dynamos are perfect all the time.

My main issue is not with the poor riding.

On previous occasions when Dynamo incidents have been brought up on this board Dynamo members and ride leaders have gone to great lengths to point out that they are a responsible club and that any issues are dealt with if you contact the directly.

However, if you contact them directly nothing, as far as I'm aware, happens. No response, no explanation.

In that scenario how can other park users be expected to believe what they say?

okgo

Can't agree enough with the above. (il p)

I've met some Dynamo which are great guys and gals, and they do excellent stuff like the Time Trials, but as with any club that size (ours is probably very similar now) and using the Park as the main training hub, there will be issues. Personally I don't think DDD has done much wrong here, no worse than some of the stuff I see posted around Twitter and Strava regarding LD. Yes he cut through the park in his car, its totally legal to do so, if someone doesn't give way to the right when there is not a reasonable gap (i.e. causing the driver to brake heavily etc) they're an idiot regardless of who they ride for.

vermin

@Tailwindhome

You are trying to get me, as a member of Dynamo, to say that what the Dynamo do is wrong. I don't know your motivation, but I'm not going to do that. The Dynamo attracts a lot of attention because of the size of the club, its visibility and the fact that it trains on the same small confined loop every week. It is very easy to bash "the Dynamo", because of the unfortunate mistakes of individuals.

@ IlP

Every group I have ever ridden in with the Dynamo has always been careful to shout warnings to cyclists ahead, although sometimes that upsets the cyclists themselves, who think that we are shouting at them to get out of the way! The groups always try to give plenty of space to overtaken riders and try not to get in the way of those who can keep up. Mistakes are made, of course, but there is no intention to upset anyone. The club is very much aware of the poor press it receives and does not relish it. The fact that the Dynamo does its chain gang work in the park means that you are far more likely to encounter them when training and therefore the risk of a poor experience with them is much greater than with clubs who spread their rides out more. I agree with you that the rides would be better completed earlier than they are, but I disagree that the park is an inappropriate place for newbie riders to practice group riding. Group riding helps nodders to gain invaluable riding skills, which will benefit them and other road users. However, when starting out, it can be dangerous and/or intimidating and I would suggest that the relative safety of the park is a good place to learn those skills. Yes, it may get in the way of other cyclists, but other cyclists might recognise the greater good that is being done. Further, I know this is a hostage to fortune but, the Dynamo really are only there for a couple of hours a week, so other riders could cut them some slack and work around the 'problem'.

@ Asprilla

I agree, it is not good form to ignore complaints. If they are made in an appropriate way, they should be given the recognition they deserve. As I said above, I hear of those complaints during the pre-ride briefings, so they are not ignored, but I too would expect a response if I were you.

@ okgo

I agree with you, but see my first post. Like someone else said, we only have one side of the story here, but mistakes are always going to be made by cyclists of all levels; at least within the confines of the park the traffic speeds and volumes are lower and there are no HGVs. I'm surprised that fellow cyclists fail to show understanding of this.

mroli

Funny that Vermin, because when I have talked to various members of the Dynamos about the public perception of them (this was a couple of years ago), their opinion was that the majority of the bad press was around the actions of a few "better" riders (ie cat 2 and above riders) who were the ones who rode irresponsibly and would NOT be told! Has this been sorted out now?

I think that what this thread illustrates quite magnificently is that "even" other cyclists have problems with chain gangs, so I don't know why we are so amazed that motorists have a problem with them. I was out at RP at the weekend and stopped behind 2 cyclists having a row with a motorist because he'd pulled out on them (and one of them had called him the c word), which looked as though it was going to blow up. Said motorist then accelerated past me, only to brake heavily and drive at just under 20mph to make some sort of point - I just chilled behind him and enjoyed the draft.

There were 2 cyclists coming up Sawyers taking up the entire road with a car patiently waiting as they literally wobbled their way up. There were numerous cyclists (and cars) not indicating at r'bouts. There was a range rover being driven like a cock overtaking cars and cyclists doing about 40mph. Oh, and some dear.

RP is a lovely place. It is used by loads of people and it would benefit massively from people just chilling out, accepting it is busy and that they are not going to be able to go as fast as they want and that they should just appreciate the scenery.

gabriel959

okgo wrote:

Can't agree enough with the above. (il p)

I've met some Dynamo which are great guys and gals, and they do excellent stuff like the Time Trials, but as with any club that size (ours is probably very similar now) and using the Park as the main training hub, there will be issues. Personally I don't think DDD has done much wrong here, no worse than some of the stuff I see posted around Twitter and Strava regarding LD. Yes he cut through the park in his car, its totally legal to do so, if someone doesn't give way to the right when there is not a reasonable gap (i.e. causing the driver to brake heavily etc) they're an idiot regardless of who they ride for.

+1

RP sounds like it would be a fantastic place to ride your bike if it wasn't in London.

DonDaddyD

vermin wrote:

@Tailwindhome

You are trying to get me, as a member of Dynamo, to say that what the Dynamo do is wrong.

Now I understand your irrational bias.

1. A group of cyclists, 'Dynamos', don't give way to the right.

2. They pull out on a car halfway around a roundabout that is to their right.

3. Driver (me) complains about this on one website where he has been a member since 2006-07.

4. Somehow, under your logic, the driver is out of order for complaining about their actions and needs to "grow up"

You need to wind your neck in mate, humble and show some humility. The dignified thing would be to simply say that you'd have a word with your club mates because London Dynamo do have a policy of observing the rules of the road and do not advocate dangerous cycling (which it was) or actions that would put themselves or others in danger. However, each member is only human and do from time to time get excited. You're a cycling 'D', you should know what's that like judging from your SCR posts.

Had you said something like the above as oppose to telling me to "grow up" and accusing me of trying to damage the reputation of your club [you go ahead mate, if they ride like that then they'll do it all by themselves] I'd actually have some respect for what your saying.

That's the trouble, people are so unwilling to see the other side of the argument. I was, I understood what the Dynamo's were doing and this is why I was prepared to stop and didn't overtake them until I was out of the park as oppose of exerting my right of way and forcing them to stop.

Paulie W

vermin wrote:

Group riding helps nodders to gain invaluable riding skills, which will benefit them and other road users. However, when starting out, it can be dangerous and/or intimidating and I would suggest that the relative safety of the park is a good place to learn those skills. Yes, it may get in the way of other cyclists, but other cyclists might recognise the greater good that is being done. Further, I know this is a hostage to fortune but, the Dynamo really are only there for a couple of hours a week, so other riders could cut them some slack and work around the 'problem'.

This is remarkable! The idea that somehow these chaingangs are for the benefit of all cyclists and indeed all road users beggars belief; and even more so the idea that we could all b*gger off for a few hours and leave them to this valuable education work.

vermin

mroli wrote:

Funny that Vermin, because when I have talked to various members of the Dynamos about the public perception of them (this was a couple of years ago), their opinion was that the majority of the bad press was around the actions of a few "better" riders (ie cat 2 and above riders) who were the ones who rode irresponsibly and would NOT be told! Has this been sorted out now?

I'm probably not fast enough to ride with them, so I don't know! :P

asprilla

Paulie W wrote:

vermin wrote:

Group riding helps nodders to gain invaluable riding skills, which will benefit them and other road users. However, when starting out, it can be dangerous and/or intimidating and I would suggest that the relative safety of the park is a good place to learn those skills. Yes, it may get in the way of other cyclists, but other cyclists might recognise the greater good that is being done. Further, I know this is a hostage to fortune but, the Dynamo really are only there for a couple of hours a week, so other riders could cut them some slack and work around the 'problem'.

This is remarkable! The idea that somehow these chaingangs are for the benefit of all cyclists and indeed all road users beggars belief; and even more so the idea that we could all b*gger off for a few hours and leave them to this valuable education work.

Indeed. I think I just trod on my own jaw.