Seemingly trivial things that annoy you

Tashman

pangolin said:

Similar thing in Bristol achieved by just painting some planters

that's some genius parking there too!

briantrumpet

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

I know that predictive text is often to blame, but even so...

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

A bull has an enormous scrotum to house its testicles . It's got massive testicles.

pangolin

Its certainly wound you up Brian.

pinno

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

I know that predictive text is often to blame, but even so...

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

A bull has an enormous scrotum to house its testicles . It's got massive testicles.

That's a I bit of a lengthy lecture boss.
I know exactly when and when not to add the apostrophe, it is just a force of habit innit?

Did you see what I did there?

briantrumpet

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

I know that predictive text is often to blame, but even so...

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

A bull has an enormous scrotum to house its testicles . It's got massive testicles.

That's a I bit of a lengthy lecture boss.
I know exactly when and when not to add the apostrophe, it is just a force of habit innit?

Did you see what I did there?

It was really just an excuse to write 'testicles' twice.

morstar

Bollocks

Munsford0

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

briantrumpet

Munsford0 said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

Glad to have helped. I wasn't taught grammar either, having started school (1969) shortly after the teaching of it was largely abandoned - I think we probably covered really basic elements such as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Not sure where I've picked it up, but it was probably a mixture of my stickler mum, schools generally (ongoing correction), and general interest.

There are inconsistencies... for instance, apostrophes are *sometimes* used for plurals, where it aids clarity (e.g. "there are three A's in 'aarvark"), and sometimes omitted in possessives (so "its" and "yours" are correct but the possessive "one's" does have an apostrophe). BTW, you might notice I've used quotation marks in that last sentence, where inverted commas would normally used, but, again, that's to aid clarity, otherwise it would have referred to 'one's'. Pragmatism is where it's at, not petty pedantry.

Most of the time, especially on social media, I let it pass, as I think of SM being more of an oral medium, like chatting in a pub, where you can't see people's spelling or punctuation, but if someone starts being pedantic, then they are fair game...

I could expand on why I appreciate (and why) 'correct' spelling, grammar and punctuation are helpful, and the value in knowing what the conventions are, but I'll leave that essay/lecture for another time.

pinno

briantrumpet said:

Munsford0 said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

Glad to have helped. I wasn't taught grammar either, having started school (1969) shortly after the teaching of it was largely abandoned - I think we probably covered really basic elements such as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Not sure where I've picked it up, but it was probably a mixture of my stickler mum, schools generally (ongoing correction), and general interest.

There are inconsistencies... for instance, apostrophes are *sometimes* used for plurals, where it aids clarity (e.g. "there are three A's in 'aarvark"), and sometimes omitted in possessives (so "its" and "yours" are correct but the possessive "one's" does have an apostrophe). BTW, you might notice I've used quotation marks in that last sentence, where inverted commas would normally used, but, again, that's to aid clarity, otherwise it would have referred to 'one's'. Pragmatism is where it's at, not petty pedantry.

Most of the time, especially on social media, I let it pass, as I think of SM being more of an oral medium, like chatting in a pub, where you can't see people's spelling or punctuation, but if someone starts being pedantic, then they are fair game...

I could expand on why I appreciate (and why) 'correct' spelling, grammar and punctuation are helpful, and the value in knowing what the conventions are, but I'll leave that essay/lecture for another time.

Consider revising

briantrumpet

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

Munsford0 said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

Glad to have helped. I wasn't taught grammar either, having started school (1969) shortly after the teaching of it was largely abandoned - I think we probably covered really basic elements such as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Not sure where I've picked it up, but it was probably a mixture of my stickler mum, schools generally (ongoing correction), and general interest.

There are inconsistencies... for instance, apostrophes are *sometimes* used for plurals, where it aids clarity (e.g. "there are three A's in 'aarvark"), and sometimes omitted in possessives (so "its" and "yours" are correct but the possessive "one's" does have an apostrophe). BTW, you might notice I've used quotation marks in that last sentence, where inverted commas would normally used, but, again, that's to aid clarity, otherwise it would have referred to 'one's'. Pragmatism is where it's at, not petty pedantry.

Most of the time, especially on social media, I let it pass, as I think of SM being more of an oral medium, like chatting in a pub, where you can't see people's spelling or punctuation, but if someone starts being pedantic, then they are fair game...

I could expand on why I appreciate (and why) 'correct' spelling, grammar and punctuation are helpful, and the value in knowing what the conventions are, but I'll leave that essay/lecture for another time.

Consider revising

Considered, and not revising, thanks.

Pross

I remember attending a murder trial when I was in school as part of the crime and punishment module we were doing in history. The murder was in my home town and a very rare occurence, I think it was the second or third in my lifetime at that point. I thought it was going to be quite exciting to watch as I knew some of the accused by sight and reputation. In the end the first half an hour was some argument between the legal teams about the positioning of a comma in the previous days records by the Court Reporter. Punctuation can be incredibly important in accurately recounting words into writing.

First.Aspect

Eats, shoots and leaves.

Murderer, or panda?

Munsford0

Ha! I started secondary school in 1969. Vague recollection of adjectives and nouns being discussed in year 1 but nothing thereafter, so that ties in with your statement about it being abandoned.

My Mum was a bit of a spelling and grammar pedant, but we clearly never ventured into its / it's territory.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

I remember attending a murder trial when I was in school as part of the crime and punishment module we were doing in history. The murder was in my home town and a very rare occurence, I think it was the second or third in my lifetime at that point. I thought it was going to be quite exciting to watch as I knew some of the accused by sight and reputation. In the end the first half an hour was some argument between the legal teams about the positioning of a comma in the previous days records by the Court Reporter. Punctuation can be incredibly important in accurately recounting words into writing.

It can cost millions if wrong, or can be quite subtle...

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20180723-the-commas-that-cost-companies-millions

Early climate change conventions included this line:

“The Parties have a right to, and should, promote sustainable development.”

The sentence ensures those signing the agreement have the ability to promote sustainable development – and should do so.

But in its original draft, the second comma was placed after “promote”, not before it:

“The Parties have a right to, and should promote, sustainable development.”

Some countries weren’t happy with the original wording because they didn’t necessarily want to be locked into promoting sustainable development. Moving the comma kept the naysayers happy while placating those who wanted stronger action.

pinno

briantrumpet said:

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

Munsford0 said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

Glad to have helped. I wasn't taught grammar either, having started school (1969) shortly after the teaching of it was largely abandoned - I think we probably covered really basic elements such as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Not sure where I've picked it up, but it was probably a mixture of my stickler mum, schools generally (ongoing correction), and general interest.

There are inconsistencies... for instance, apostrophes are *sometimes* used for plurals, where it aids clarity (e.g. "there are three A's in 'aarvark"), and sometimes omitted in possessives (so "its" and "yours" are correct but the possessive "one's" does have an apostrophe). BTW, you might notice I've used quotation marks in that last sentence, where inverted commas would normally used, but, again, that's to aid clarity, otherwise it would have referred to 'one's'. Pragmatism is where it's at, not petty pedantry.

Most of the time, especially on social media, I let it pass, as I think of SM being more of an oral medium, like chatting in a pub, where you can't see people's spelling or punctuation, but if someone starts being pedantic, then they are fair game...

I could expand on why I appreciate (and why) 'correct' spelling, grammar and punctuation are helpful, and the value in knowing what the conventions are, but I'll leave that essay/lecture for another time.

Consider revising

Considered, and not revising, thanks.

You did it again you stubborn old goat!

briantrumpet

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

Munsford0 said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

Glad to have helped. I wasn't taught grammar either, having started school (1969) shortly after the teaching of it was largely abandoned - I think we probably covered really basic elements such as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Not sure where I've picked it up, but it was probably a mixture of my stickler mum, schools generally (ongoing correction), and general interest.

There are inconsistencies... for instance, apostrophes are *sometimes* used for plurals, where it aids clarity (e.g. "there are three A's in 'aarvark"), and sometimes omitted in possessives (so "its" and "yours" are correct but the possessive "one's" does have an apostrophe). BTW, you might notice I've used quotation marks in that last sentence, where inverted commas would normally used, but, again, that's to aid clarity, otherwise it would have referred to 'one's'. Pragmatism is where it's at, not petty pedantry.

Most of the time, especially on social media, I let it pass, as I think of SM being more of an oral medium, like chatting in a pub, where you can't see people's spelling or punctuation, but if someone starts being pedantic, then they are fair game...

I could expand on why I appreciate (and why) 'correct' spelling, grammar and punctuation are helpful, and the value in knowing what the conventions are, but I'll leave that essay/lecture for another time.

Consider revising

Considered, and not revising, thanks.

You did it again you stubborn old goat!

Yup, correct.

I'd have put a comma in after 'again'.

pinno

briantrumpet said:

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

Munsford0 said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

Glad to have helped. I wasn't taught grammar either, having started school (1969) shortly after the teaching of it was largely abandoned - I think we probably covered really basic elements such as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Not sure where I've picked it up, but it was probably a mixture of my stickler mum, schools generally (ongoing correction), and general interest.

There are inconsistencies... for instance, apostrophes are *sometimes* used for plurals, where it aids clarity (e.g. "there are three A's in 'aarvark"), and sometimes omitted in possessives (so "its" and "yours" are correct but the possessive "one's" does have an apostrophe). BTW, you might notice I've used quotation marks in that last sentence, where inverted commas would normally used, but, again, that's to aid clarity, otherwise it would have referred to 'one's'. Pragmatism is where it's at, not petty pedantry.

Most of the time, especially on social media, I let it pass, as I think of SM being more of an oral medium, like chatting in a pub, where you can't see people's spelling or punctuation, but if someone starts being pedantic, then they are fair game...

I could expand on why I appreciate (and why) 'correct' spelling, grammar and punctuation are helpful, and the value in knowing what the conventions are, but I'll leave that essay/lecture for another time.

Consider revising

Considered, and not revising, thanks.

You did it again you stubborn old goat!

Yup, correct.

I'd have put a comma in after 'again'.

At this rate, there will be no commas and apostrophes left after you used them all up.

Stevo_666

This thread is at least covering trivial stuff.

briantrumpet

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

Munsford0 said:

briantrumpet said:

it's = contraction of "it is" or "it has"

its - possessive of "it"

The test is that if you write "it's" and it doesn't work to expand it to "it is" or "it has", then it should be "its".

I don't remember doing any formal grammar at school*, and I'd been blithely inserting apostrophes into possessive its for nearly 60 years. Why did nobody ever tell me?

I know better now, but that's only because of one of Brian's earlier lectures on this forum - and acknowledged in the 'things you've recently learned' thread.

*ironically a grammar school for the first year, before being mashed with the neighbouring secondary modern to become a comprehensive - 'twas carnage...

Glad to have helped. I wasn't taught grammar either, having started school (1969) shortly after the teaching of it was largely abandoned - I think we probably covered really basic elements such as verbs, nouns, adjectives and adverbs. Not sure where I've picked it up, but it was probably a mixture of my stickler mum, schools generally (ongoing correction), and general interest.

There are inconsistencies... for instance, apostrophes are *sometimes* used for plurals, where it aids clarity (e.g. "there are three A's in 'aarvark"), and sometimes omitted in possessives (so "its" and "yours" are correct but the possessive "one's" does have an apostrophe). BTW, you might notice I've used quotation marks in that last sentence, where inverted commas would normally used, but, again, that's to aid clarity, otherwise it would have referred to 'one's'. Pragmatism is where it's at, not petty pedantry.

Most of the time, especially on social media, I let it pass, as I think of SM being more of an oral medium, like chatting in a pub, where you can't see people's spelling or punctuation, but if someone starts being pedantic, then they are fair game...

I could expand on why I appreciate (and why) 'correct' spelling, grammar and punctuation are helpful, and the value in knowing what the conventions are, but I'll leave that essay/lecture for another time.

Consider revising

Considered, and not revising, thanks.

You did it again you stubborn old goat!

Yup, correct.

I'd have put a comma in after 'again'.

At this rate, there will be no commas and apostrophes left after you used them all up.

I'm recycling the ones that have been misused in possessive 'its' and plurals.

Munsford0

Moribund pressure-washer dismantled as far as possible*. Final death-throes clearly as a result of losing its final dribble of oil and the disintegration of some little plastic planetary gears. The reason for its progressive decline still a mystery, but I suspect the innards of what Karcher call the cylinder head which appears to be a sealed unit. Replacements online, whether Karcher originals or suspiciously cheap Chinese copies, all have completely different inlet / outlet connections to mine and I CBA ordering multiple bits and pieces in the hope of getting it to work.

Amazon spring sale here I come...

*did it at work, so not as annoying as it would have been otherwise...

briantrumpet

Munsford0 said:

Moribund pressure-washer dismantled as far as possible*. Final death-throes clearly as a result of losing its final dribble of oil and the disintegration of some little plastic planetary gears. The reason for its progressive decline still a mystery, but I suspect the innards of what Karcher call the cylinder head which appears to be a sealed unit. Replacements online, whether Karcher originals or suspiciously cheap Chinese copies, all have completely different inlet / outlet connections to mine and I CBA ordering multiple bits and pieces in the hope of getting it to work.

Amazon spring sale here I come...

*did it at work, so not as annoying as it would have been otherwise...

As annoying as it is not to be able to do a repair, there are some times when cutting your losses is the only sensible course of action.

The best pressure washer I've ever used was a hired diesel-engine driven beast, which easily would take the top layer off concrete if you held it close enough.

orraloon

Stupid thing to do of the day done. Mucky work gear into the washing machine, leave key of the rumblewagon in a pocket, doh. Did hear some odd screeching noise while washer doing its thang buy hey whatevs. Whatevs is a mangled, torn, out of shape and therefore useless key.

Just as well I do have the 2nd key, well now the only key.

Do Not Repeat This Stupidity.

drhaggis

orraloon said:

Stupid thing to do of the day done. Mucky work gear into the washing machine, leave key of the rumblewagon in a pocket, doh. Did hear some odd screeching noise while washer doing its thang buy hey whatevs. Whatevs is a mangled, torn, out of shape and therefore useless key.

Just as well I do have the 2nd key, well now the only key.

Do Not Repeat This Stupidity.

Both my HRM monitor and an old Garmin Edge 25 have survived full trips to the washing machine. It's a shame my bike doesn't quite fit...

TheBigBean

People always talks about punctuation changing meaning's; but examples only every involve: comma's.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

People always talks about punctuation changing meaning's; but examples only every involve: comma's.

Hyphens can too.

Michael Jackson liked forty-eight-year-olds.

Michael Jackson liked forty eight-year-olds.

More, stolen:

We’re back to these guys again! You might not think hyphens are such a big deal, but just wait until you’re faced with a “dog-eating cat!” Hyphens connect ideas. They’re the glue that holds descriptions together. They’re a pretty big deal!

Take, for example, our dog-eating cat. By placing that little line between the words “dog” and “eating,” you’re marking them as a single description. This means that, with the hyphen, you have a cat who eats dogs.

Without the hyphen, the words “dog” and “eating” are not connected, changing the way the phrase is read. You now have a “dog eating cat,” or a dog that’s actually eating cat as we speak (yuck, someone get that thing out of here!).

Okay, so you may not ever need to warn someone about a dog-eating cat or a dog that’s eating a cat (we hope). Hyphens show up in real-world examples, too, though.

Are you scheduled to work “twenty four-hour shifts,” or “twenty-four-hour shifts?” Are you a “small business owner,” or a “small-business owner?”

Leaving out the hyphens can lead to confusion, or at the very least, a silly image (like a short businessman who works four-hour shifts).

https://www.fluentu.com/blog/english/common-errors-in-english/

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

People always talks about punctuation changing meaning's; but examples only every involve: comma's.

Hyphens can too.

Michael Jackson liked forty-eight-year-olds.

Michael Jackson liked forty eight-year-olds.

More, stolen:

We’re back to these guys again! You might not think hyphens are such a big deal, but just wait until you’re faced with a “dog-eating cat!” Hyphens connect ideas. They’re the glue that holds descriptions together. They’re a pretty big deal!

Take, for example, our dog-eating cat. By placing that little line between the words “dog” and “eating,” you’re marking them as a single description. This means that, with the hyphen, you have a cat who eats dogs.

Without the hyphen, the words “dog” and “eating” are not connected, changing the way the phrase is read. You now have a “dog eating cat,” or a dog that’s actually eating cat as we speak (yuck, someone get that thing out of here!).

Okay, so you may not ever need to warn someone about a dog-eating cat or a dog that’s eating a cat (we hope). Hyphens show up in real-world examples, too, though.

Are you scheduled to work “twenty four-hour shifts,” or “twenty-four-hour shifts?” Are you a “small business owner,” or a “small-business owner?”

Leaving out the hyphens can lead to confusion, or at the very least, a silly image (like a short businessman who works four-hour shifts).

https://www.fluentu.com/blog/english/common-errors-in-english/

Have you ever confused “small business owner” and “small-business owner” in conversation?

My test is if the distinction is not clear when spoken, then it shouldn't matter when written down. For example, the difference between "horse's field" and "horses' field". Written down you find out whether there is only one horse, but when spoken you don't have this luxury. Therefore, it is a particularly poor way to communicate the number of horses involved. I'm not sure whether apostrophes add any value beyond being a shibboleth like less and fewer, so I'd be minded to stop using them.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

People always talks about punctuation changing meaning's; but examples only every involve: comma's.

Hyphens can too.

Michael Jackson liked forty-eight-year-olds.

Michael Jackson liked forty eight-year-olds.

More, stolen:

We’re back to these guys again! You might not think hyphens are such a big deal, but just wait until you’re faced with a “dog-eating cat!” Hyphens connect ideas. They’re the glue that holds descriptions together. They’re a pretty big deal!

Take, for example, our dog-eating cat. By placing that little line between the words “dog” and “eating,” you’re marking them as a single description. This means that, with the hyphen, you have a cat who eats dogs.

Without the hyphen, the words “dog” and “eating” are not connected, changing the way the phrase is read. You now have a “dog eating cat,” or a dog that’s actually eating cat as we speak (yuck, someone get that thing out of here!).

Okay, so you may not ever need to warn someone about a dog-eating cat or a dog that’s eating a cat (we hope). Hyphens show up in real-world examples, too, though.

Are you scheduled to work “twenty four-hour shifts,” or “twenty-four-hour shifts?” Are you a “small business owner,” or a “small-business owner?”

Leaving out the hyphens can lead to confusion, or at the very least, a silly image (like a short businessman who works four-hour shifts).

https://www.fluentu.com/blog/english/common-errors-in-english/

Have you ever confused “small business owner” and “small-business owner” in conversation?

My test is if the distinction is not clear when spoken, then it shouldn't matter when written down. For example, the difference between "horse's field" and "horses' field". Written down you find out whether there is only one horse, but when spoken you don't have this luxury. Therefore, it is a particularly poor way to communicate the number of horses involved. I'm not sure whether apostrophes add any value beyond being a shibboleth like less and fewer, so I'd be minded to stop using them.

I agree that most of the time meaning is clear, whether written or spoken, and often pedants dream up artificial examples to make a point. It's why I rarely 'correct' people on social media (other than in jest), as not only is it rather rude (and you don't know the context of their written language skills), but it's also tiresome, when 99.9% of the time you know exactly what they mean.

However, it gets more interesting when you are reading more technical/complicated text at speed, without aural (and paralinguistic) clues, and perhaps with less context: poor punctuation is more likely to cause 'hiccups' in your reading, sometimes necessitating checking that you've got the right meaning, and even then, sometimes not being totally sure, where 'correct' punctuation would aid clarity.

Anyone who's interested in punctuation, its history, and 'why', would enjoy David Crystal's 'Making A Point': he's very much a pragmatist, who explains entertainingly and extremely knowledgeably. He's a great defender of vernacular forms and 'non standard English', but equally can explain why the ability to write using shared conventions (of spelling, grammar, and punctuation) is a useful skill for many people.

pinno

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's

Pross

One where a hyphen can make a huge difference in meaning is resign and re-sign. I’ve seen written down that someone has resigned when it meant re-signed which basically gives the opposite message. In speech they would definitely be pronounced differently.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

People always talks about punctuation changing meaning's; but examples only every involve: comma's.

Hyphens can too.

Michael Jackson liked forty-eight-year-olds.

Michael Jackson liked forty eight-year-olds.

More, stolen:

We’re back to these guys again! You might not think hyphens are such a big deal, but just wait until you’re faced with a “dog-eating cat!” Hyphens connect ideas. They’re the glue that holds descriptions together. They’re a pretty big deal!

Take, for example, our dog-eating cat. By placing that little line between the words “dog” and “eating,” you’re marking them as a single description. This means that, with the hyphen, you have a cat who eats dogs.

Without the hyphen, the words “dog” and “eating” are not connected, changing the way the phrase is read. You now have a “dog eating cat,” or a dog that’s actually eating cat as we speak (yuck, someone get that thing out of here!).

Okay, so you may not ever need to warn someone about a dog-eating cat or a dog that’s eating a cat (we hope). Hyphens show up in real-world examples, too, though.

Are you scheduled to work “twenty four-hour shifts,” or “twenty-four-hour shifts?” Are you a “small business owner,” or a “small-business owner?”

Leaving out the hyphens can lead to confusion, or at the very least, a silly image (like a short businessman who works four-hour shifts).

https://www.fluentu.com/blog/english/common-errors-in-english/

Have you ever confused “small business owner” and “small-business owner” in conversation?

My test is if the distinction is not clear when spoken, then it shouldn't matter when written down. For example, the difference between "horse's field" and "horses' field". Written down you find out whether there is only one horse, but when spoken you don't have this luxury. Therefore, it is a particularly poor way to communicate the number of horses involved. I'm not sure whether apostrophes add any value beyond being a shibboleth like less and fewer, so I'd be minded to stop using them.

Why should written English be identical to spoken English? They are two different things in most languages. A lot of meaning is communicated through intonation, timing and emphasis in speech, where these tools are not really available in written language so and so have been replaced with punctuation.