Drugs in other sports and the media.
Comments
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R5 interviewed a current female British athlete this morning and she said the testers are not required to stick to the one hour window - they can rock up anytime, anywhere, it's just that if they rock up within the window any you're not available that is a missed test.
If Tangled Metal thinks athletics is a leading light in the anti-doping war, he's on a different planet to us! Fastest man in the world this year is a serial doper FFS!
Aparently there were 9 missed tests by British athletes in 2013, and just 1 in 2014 so they said on R5 (I think).0 -
R5 interviewed a current female British athlete this morning and she said the testers are not required to stick to the one hour window - they can rock up anytime, anywhere, it's just that if they rock up within the window any you're not available that is a missed test.
If Tangled Metal thinks athletics is a leading light in the anti-doping war, he's on a different planet to us! Fastest man in the world this year is a serial doper FFS!
Aparently there were 9 missed tests by British athletes in 2013, and just 1 in 2014 so they said on R5 (I think).
Thanks for clarifying the situation on missed tests.
Has IAAF joined the passport programme yet ? Didn't they only introduce the whereabouts system the other year as well ?
You only need to go back to the Russian allegations from last year to see it's just as bad as it always is.
To be fair to Tangled we always look at our favourite sports with rose tinted glasses0 -
R5 interviewed a current female British athlete this morning and she said the testers are not required to stick to the one hour window - they can rock up anytime, anywhere, it's just that if they rock up within the window any you're not available that is a missed test.
If Tangled Metal thinks athletics is a leading light in the anti-doping war, he's on a different planet to us! Fastest man in the world this year is a serial doper FFS!
Aparently there were 9 missed tests by British athletes in 2013, and just 1 in 2014 so they said on R5 (I think).
Quite agree. Tangled Metal should read up on doping. Perhaps start with East Germany, then move on to see how many of Ben Johnson's Seoul lot have been implicated, then look at Jamaica, then read a little about Gay and Gatlin, then look at Kenya etc etc etc. Maybe also do some reading on Salazar, it's all out there on the internet.
Then watch the Panorama.
Then look at the fact that micro-dosing EPO has pretty much a 0% chance of being caught by either testing at 6am the morning after it's been injected, and it won't show up on the bio passport blah blah blah.
There are also other things in the pipeline and due to come out. Watch this space.0 -
R5 interviewed a current female British athlete this morning and she said the testers are not required to stick to the one hour window - they can rock up anytime, anywhere, it's just that if they rock up within the window any you're not available that is a missed test.
If Tangled Metal thinks athletics is a leading light in the anti-doping war, he's on a different planet to us! Fastest man in the world this year is a serial doper FFS!
Aparently there were 9 missed tests by British athletes in 2013, and just 1 in 2014 so they said on R5 (I think).
Thanks for clarifying the situation on missed tests.
Has IAAF joined the passport programme yet ? Didn't they only introduce the whereabouts system the other year as well ?
You only need to go back to the Russian allegations from last year to see it's just as bad as it always is.
To be fair to Tangled we always look at our favourite sports with rose tinted glasses
The whereabouts is WADA, not just cycling, so every olympic sport is involved with that (though I suspect three are sports that are more targeted than others)
Farrah's missed tests are fairly irrelevant though, the heat is coming from far more unfortunate (though not for Joel) sourcesWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
R5 interviewed a current female British athlete this morning and she said the testers are not required to stick to the one hour window - they can rock up anytime, anywhere, it's just that if they rock up within the window any you're not available that is a missed test.
If Tangled Metal thinks athletics is a leading light in the anti-doping war, he's on a different planet to us! Fastest man in the world this year is a serial doper FFS!
Aparently there were 9 missed tests by British athletes in 2013, and just 1 in 2014 so they said on R5 (I think).
Thanks for clarifying the situation on missed tests.
Has IAAF joined the passport programme yet ? Didn't they only introduce the whereabouts system the other year as well ?
You only need to go back to the Russian allegations from last year to see it's just as bad as it always is.
To be fair to Tangled we always look at our favourite sports with rose tinted glasses
The whereabouts is WADA, not just cycling, so every olympic sport is involved with that (though I suspect three are sports that are more targeted than others)
Farrah's missed tests are fairly irrelevant though, the heat is coming from far more unfortunate (though not for Joel) sources
lol.0 -
I was meaning in the development of anti doping in sport. However looking at it again it seems I as totally wrong. I was talking out of ,my @r$e. Sorry. :oops:
Athletics governing body was the first to introduce a ban in doping in 1928, although you are right that after that it seems to be the IOC making the most new advances since that date. Also they didn't have testing back then so you are right.
If you want to check it out (superficially but enough to show I was wrong) look at this link for example.
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/who-we-are/a-brief-history-of-anti-doping
Anti doping measures do not stop athletes at all levels doing it but the measure is whether the governing bodies actually look and do something about it. That goes back to '66 with FIFA and UCI introducing testing. BTW since the UCI was an early adopter of testing then why did it fall behind in anti-doping. What happened since the early days of dope testing in the late '60s at UCI that led to the much hyped difficulties more recently?
I think I will leave this discussion for the grown ups. But with permission I will drop in to read from time to time as I seem to need educating on this. :oops:0 -
One thing I do remember about athletics, There was something about Linford Christie missing tests and indeed going off radar. just after his retiring from athletics there was something going around about him and doping. I recall one athletics programme bringing it up and the former greats who were being the pundits, one of them questioned whether he was fit to coach with these rumours. Anyone know what happened about those rumours?0
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I was meaning in the development of anti doping in sport. However looking at it again it seems I as totally wrong. I was talking out of ,my @r$e. Sorry. :oops:
Athletics governing body was the first to introduce a ban in doping in 1928, although you are right that after that it seems to be the IOC making the most new advances since that date. Also they didn't have testing back then so you are right.
If you want to check it out (superficially but enough to show I was wrong) look at this link for example.
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/who-we-are/a-brief-history-of-anti-doping
Anti doping measures do not stop athletes at all levels doing it but the measure is whether the governing bodies actually look and do something about it. That goes back to '66 with FIFA and UCI introducing testing. BTW since the UCI was an early adopter of testing then why did it fall behind in anti-doping. What happened since the early days of dope testing in the late '60s at UCI that led to the much hyped difficulties more recently?
I think I will leave this discussion for the grown ups. But with permission I will drop in to read from time to time as I seem to need educating on this. :oops:
There is a lot more testing in cycling than any other sport. Athletics is just as dirty and always has been.0 -
One thing I do remember about athletics, There was something about Linford Christie missing tests and indeed going off radar. just after his retiring from athletics there was something going around about him and doping. I recall one athletics programme bringing it up and the former greats who were being the pundits, one of them questioned whether he was fit to coach with these rumours. Anyone know what happened about those rumours?
Yes, he served a ban. Got caught twice.
Have a quick look at this.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/10325587/1988-Olympic-100m-final-what-happened-next-to-athletes.html
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/18/athletics.comment0 -
The one hour system just dictates that the athlete must be at the stated place for that hour. It doesn't mean that that is the only time they can test you. They can turn up and ask to test you at any time between 6am and 11pm.
If they come outside your nominated hour then hiding in a dark room until they've gone is a legitimate response. i.e. it doesn't count as a missed or refused test. (It might get you targeted for future testing though).
Once you open the door then you can be done for refusing a test.0 -
What happened since the early days of dope testing in the late '60s at UCI that led to the much hyped difficulties more recently?
There is a lot more testing in cycling than any other sport. Athletics is just as dirty and always has been.
I have not doubt they are both as dirty but if UCI was the earliest adopters of testing why does it have such a poor reputation? I think you will agree the image of doping in sport has a few well known cases. East German sports, Ben Johnson, Dwayne Chambers, the overnight raids by French Police on a TdF team hotel etc. Was the UCI been sleeping at the helm on this issue? Off topic sorry.
Out of interest, what would you say is your list of the most notorious doping offences in any sport? Looking back on it (with my already proven dodgy memory for these things) it does seem to me to be mostly IOC events with track and field events predominantly. Of course some big cycling cases but mostly it is athletics through Olympic events.0 -
if UCI was the earliest adopters of testing why does it have such a poor reputation?
simply put it's the common but meaningless "it's well known that xxx" line being used about cyclists doping. That said cycling has always been the most mercenary and professional of sports. A way for European peasants to escape the fields, factories or the mines.
Cheating and cycling have always gone hand in hand, which is why I always laugh when people describe it as a "beautiful sport". It is very far from one!
The other factor is that if you start properly looking for cheating, you tend to find a lot more of it than someone who isnt. Tennis gets so few drug positives compared to cycling becasue it tests so little compared to cyclingWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Then look at the fact that micro-dosing EPO has pretty much a 0% chance of being caught by either testing at 6am the morning after it's been injected, and it won't show up on the bio passport blah blah blah.
Whilst this is true, the fact that athletes can't shoot up on as much EPO as they can take any more has slowed things down. Middle and long distance track performances are well short of where they were in the "EPO era" (i.e. mid to late 90s, before EPO testing ans Hct testing was introduced) as are ascents of benchmark climbs such as Alpe D'Huez.
However, it is certainly harder to avoiding testing positive for EPO now than in the 90s, because there wasn't a test for it then. So those with access to the knowledge of how to maximise microdosing will have an edge, so whilst EPO testing/passport etc. has slowed things down, it might actually give opportunities similar to those at he start of the EPO era when certain riders (I'm thinking of amiable large Spaniards) appeared to be ahead of the game in terms of access to technology.0 -
One thing I do remember about athletics, There was something about Linford Christie missing tests and indeed going off radar. just after his retiring from athletics there was something going around about him and doping. I recall one athletics programme bringing it up and the former greats who were being the pundits, one of them questioned whether he was fit to coach with these rumours. Anyone know what happened about those rumours?
Yes, he served a ban. Got caught twice.
Does that prevent him coaching? I thought he was still around athletics on a coaching side.
From the British Athletics site -
Linford Christie's career came to a controversial end when he was banned for testing positive for nandrolone in 1999, but the facts which preceded this shocking finale could not be in dispute. He was the greatest sprinter Britain produced, an athlete who emerged onto the scene at a late stage in life for an athlete and carved out an unique niche.
That statement I find amusing in light of an earlier comment about Mo Farah hitting the top at 27/28. Linford hit the top late on so is that a warning sign to look for??0 -
True. But I would also expect that such behaviour would single you out for special attention.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628554#p19628554]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:The one hour system just dictates that the athlete must be at the stated place for that hour. It doesn't mean that that is the only time they can test you. They can turn up and ask to test you at any time between 6am and 11pm.
If they come outside your nominated hour then hiding in a dark room until they've gone is a legitimate response. i.e. it doesn't count as a missed or refused test. (It might get you targeted for future testing though).
Once you open the door then you can be done for refusing a test.Twitter: @RichN950 -
With Linford Christie the British Athletics site said UK Athletics investigated and said the charges could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt but the IAAF banned him for 2 years anyway.
Regarding other sports (thinking tennis and football here) is there also a degree where physical performance and technical performance switch importance and does this have any impact on doping levels? Whilst there is technicality in an athlete running round a track the actual physical attributes to be able to take performance to the levels needed perhaps is higher and more consistently needed. For example a snooker player is never going to need the boost that EPO could give someone (is that a sport or a game and is there a difference).0 -
That statement I find amusing in light of an earlier comment about Mo Farah hitting the top at 27/28. Linford hit the top late on so is that a warning sign to look for??
In sweepingly general terms, sudden performance improvements in the late 20s are always suspicious (though not definitive) particularly for people who are already international athletes with access to coaching and advice. Coaching expertise will potentially add the extra margins to take someone from a contender to a winner, but won't convert an also ran to a winner.0 -
True. But I would also expect that such behaviour would single you out for special attention.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628554#p19628554]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:The one hour system just dictates that the athlete must be at the stated place for that hour. It doesn't mean that that is the only time they can test you. They can turn up and ask to test you at any time between 6am and 11pm.
If they come outside your nominated hour then hiding in a dark room until they've gone is a legitimate response. i.e. it doesn't count as a missed or refused test. (It might get you targeted for future testing though).
Once you open the door then you can be done for refusing a test.
That's what I meant by "It might get you targeted for future testing".0 -
Yes. For some reason I missed that bit.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628589#p19628589]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:That's what I meant by "It might get you targeted for future testing".Twitter: @RichN950 -
Tangled - top tennis is an endurance sport. Late on in a tournament they are regularly playing 5 set matches in 40+ degree heat with no drop off in performance. It's one of the dirtiest sports around.
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match and they regularly play twice a week over 38 weeks. Sure doping won't give you the extra skills but it will keep the stamina. The 1972 West german world champions and Spain's world champions have massive doping clouds over them, just as two examples over 40 years.
In snooker, the doping would be through the use of beta blockers to keep the heart rate steady combined with something to keep you awake through the tedium of a snooker match.0 -
With Linford Christie the British Athletics site said UK Athletics investigated and said the charges could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt but the IAAF banned him for 2 years anyway.
I think the IAAF (or whoever handed out the ban) was correct. Dope test failures are "strict liability" i.e. if it's in your system, you have to prove the testing was flawed or that you consumed something contaminated that had been given to you by a reliable source as "clean".
There were a few tennis players who got off Nandralone test failures after they proved that the failures were as a result of taking supplements provided by an ITF (or whatever the global governing body is for tennis) trainer. In such circumstances, it's reasonable for the athletes to assume that what they were given was legitimate.0 -
Golf has had cheating in the form of beater blockers and such which help with concentration.With Linford Christie the British Athletics site said UK Athletics investigated and said the charges could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt but the IAAF banned him for 2 years anyway.
Regarding other sports (thinking tennis and football here) is there also a degree where physical performance and technical performance switch importance and does this have any impact on doping levels? Whilst there is technicality in an athlete running round a track the actual physical attributes to be able to take performance to the levels needed perhaps is higher and more consistently needed. For example a snooker player is never going to need the boost that EPO could give someone (is that a sport or a game and is there a difference).
As with all sports the fresher you are the better you think and also the better you can use any technical skills you have. If you are tired at the end of a football match you are likely to make a mistake0 -
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match
*Le Tiss excepted0 -
Tangled - top tennis is an endurance sport. Late on in a tournament they are regularly playing 5 set matches in 40+ degree heat with no drop off in performance. It's one of the dirtiest sports around.
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match and they regularly play twice a week over 38 weeks. Sure doping won't give you the extra skills but it will keep the stamina. The 1972 West german world champions and Spain's world champions have massive doping clouds over them, just as two examples over 40 years.
In snooker, the doping would be through the use of beta blockers to keep the heart rate steady combined with something to keep you awake through the tedium of a snooker match.
Slightly playing Devils advocate here but 10km for a pro athlete is not that far. I can run 10k FFS!
I agree that the Spain tema just never seemed to tire though...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Tangled - top tennis is an endurance sport. Late on in a tournament they are regularly playing 5 set matches in 40+ degree heat with no drop off in performance. It's one of the dirtiest sports around.
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match and they regularly play twice a week over 38 weeks. Sure doping won't give you the extra skills but it will keep the stamina. The 1972 West german world champions and Spain's world champions have massive doping clouds over them, just as two examples over 40 years.
In snooker, the doping would be through the use of beta blockers to keep the heart rate steady combined with something to keep you awake through the tedium of a snooker match.
Slightly playing Devils advocate here but 10km for a pro athlete is not that far. I can run 10k FFS!
I agree that the Spain tema just never seemed to tire though...
But it's 10km of explosive bursts.
The Spain team didn't tire because they always had the ball.0 -
don't forget the 54 World Cup winning German side, who IIRC also doped during 58 too.
Why else would the same doping doctors who work in cycling and are tainted also work with footballers and tennis players etc. Are maybe they are clean when they work on other sports
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628585#p19628585]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:That statement I find amusing in light of an earlier comment about Mo Farah hitting the top at 27/28. Linford hit the top late on so is that a warning sign to look for??
In sweepingly general terms, sudden performance improvements in the late 20s are always suspicious (though not definitive) particularly for people who are already international athletes with access to coaching and advice. Coaching expertise will potentially add the extra margins to take someone from a contender to a winner, but won't convert an also ran to a winner.
How far behind was Mo Farah in 2009 compared to 2011 and 2012? Looking at the link below there does appear to be some kind of progression. There was a big jump from 13:30 in the 5k to 13:09 between 2005 and 2006 but it doesn't look like much, however the 2011 best in 5k is 2% better than the 2009 best time. Is 2% over 2 years a big jump at international levels? We are talking about 6th or 7th place up to 1st in 3 years from 2009 to 2012 if I am reading this right.0 -
He also says he does 120 miles a week. Seems a lot!
120 miles a week is about what I'd expect for an elite distance runner. Even middle distance runners (800m/1500m) will be running that kind of distance through part of the year.0
