Drugs in other sports and the media.
Comments
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Tangled - top tennis is an endurance sport. Late on in a tournament they are regularly playing 5 set matches in 40+ degree heat with no drop off in performance. It's one of the dirtiest sports around.
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match and they regularly play twice a week over 38 weeks. Sure doping won't give you the extra skills but it will keep the stamina. The 1972 West german world champions and Spain's world champions have massive doping clouds over them, just as two examples over 40 years.
In snooker, the doping would be through the use of beta blockers to keep the heart rate steady combined with something to keep you awake through the tedium of a snooker match.
Slightly playing Devils advocate here but 10km for a pro athlete is not that far. I can run 10k FFS!
I agree that the Spain tema just never seemed to tire though...
But it's 10km of explosive bursts.
So?We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I've come across a few runners doing mileage at that sort of levels I think. One guy I've seen runs to and from work each day, I've seen him running on different days all the way through town and about 8 miles or more distance. That is 16 miles a day and I assume 5 days a week plus whatever he does at the weekend. Not even elite athlete and he does that.
Someone I know through family does ultra running events and does 15 miles plus each way into work 5 days a week and then does more on top when he is home. He considers marathon distance a simple training run.0 -
Tangled - top tennis is an endurance sport. Late on in a tournament they are regularly playing 5 set matches in 40+ degree heat with no drop off in performance. It's one of the dirtiest sports around.
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match and they regularly play twice a week over 38 weeks. Sure doping won't give you the extra skills but it will keep the stamina. The 1972 West german world champions and Spain's world champions have massive doping clouds over them, just as two examples over 40 years.
In snooker, the doping would be through the use of beta blockers to keep the heart rate steady combined with something to keep you awake through the tedium of a snooker match.
Slightly playing Devils advocate here but 10km for a pro athlete is not that far. I can run 10k FFS!
I agree that the Spain tema just never seemed to tire though...
But it's 10km of explosive bursts.
The Spain team didn't tire because they always had the ball.
And they always had the ball because they were able to make the right passes and decisions whilst opponents were more tired. Energy and lucidity go hand-in-hand, if you are fitter and have more energy then you are more able to make clear decisions and utilise skills.
I don't have any numbers, but it always seemed like Spain either scored late goals or closed out close games through wearing other teams out.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
Tangled - top tennis is an endurance sport. Late on in a tournament they are regularly playing 5 set matches in 40+ degree heat with no drop off in performance. It's one of the dirtiest sports around.
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match and they regularly play twice a week over 38 weeks. Sure doping won't give you the extra skills but it will keep the stamina. The 1972 West german world champions and Spain's world champions have massive doping clouds over them, just as two examples over 40 years.
In snooker, the doping would be through the use of beta blockers to keep the heart rate steady combined with something to keep you awake through the tedium of a snooker match.
Slightly playing Devils advocate here but 10km for a pro athlete is not that far. I can run 10k FFS!
I agree that the Spain tema just never seemed to tire though...
But it's 10km of explosive bursts.
The Spain team didn't tire because they always had the ball.
And they always had the ball because they were able to make the right passes and decisions whilst opponents were more tired. Energy and lucidity go hand-in-hand, if you are fitter and have more energy then you are more able to make clear decisions and utilise skills.
I don't have any numbers, but it always seemed like Spain either scored late goals or closed out close games through wearing other teams out.
Exactly just as I said above the fitter you are at the end the less likely you are to make a mental error and give the ball away. Just because a sport is technical doesn't mean PEDs have no effect.
If your mind wanders during a golf or snooker make you play a duff shot, take beater blockers and it takes that type of error away.0 -
Tangled - top tennis is an endurance sport. Late on in a tournament they are regularly playing 5 set matches in 40+ degree heat with no drop off in performance. It's one of the dirtiest sports around.
In football, a midfielder will easily run 10 kms during a match and they regularly play twice a week over 38 weeks. Sure doping won't give you the extra skills but it will keep the stamina. The 1972 West german world champions and Spain's world champions have massive doping clouds over them, just as two examples over 40 years.
In snooker, the doping would be through the use of beta blockers to keep the heart rate steady combined with something to keep you awake through the tedium of a snooker match.
Slightly playing Devils advocate here but 10km for a pro athlete is not that far. I can run 10k FFS!
I agree that the Spain tema just never seemed to tire though...
But it's 10km of explosive bursts.
The Spain team didn't tire because they always had the ball.
And they always had the ball because they were able to make the right passes and decisions whilst opponents were more tired. Energy and lucidity go hand-in-hand, if you are fitter and have more energy then you are more able to make clear decisions and utilise skills.
I don't have any numbers, but it always seemed like Spain either scored late goals or closed out close games through wearing other teams out.
that they did, and in some style. they were renowned for defending from the front and high tempo pressing which uses up a lot of the forwards energy as well as having very mobile midfielders, full backs and centre backs. that they could score goals with players that could repeatedly press the ball or playmake in the way they did was pretty remarkable. gifted players, sure...
the 10km of explosive bursts is one thing, to dominate football games against teams of a supposedly equal stature is something else.
going back to athletics, i fear that there will be a few more from 2012 that will get found out. seems the head of BALCO reckons they should test Rupp and Farah retrospectively, as he thinks its fairly fishy. testing using the CIR method apparently. (Victor Conte). he's not a fan of WADA according to his twitter...0 -
That's not what beta blockers do. In fact they do the opposite - they reduce tension and anxiety (and heart rates).If your mind wanders during a golf or snooker make you play a duff shot, take beater blockers and it takes that type of error away.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I've come across a few runners doing mileage at that sort of levels I think.
That's not the issue really - the problem with that sort of comment (I run 120 miles a week, I train super hard, practice/protein etc) is that they are the "classic" response of a doper trying to defend his performance. The line I wrote about "busting his ass" is a paraphrase of an Nike advert that Lance Armstrong did. No amount of dope will make up for not training properly.
I'm sure you see the issue there for clean athletes who genuinely train hard and are there on pure talent alone - there is no question they can give to the "Are you clean" question that has nt been used as a lie by someone cheatingWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
That's not what beta blockers do. In fact they do the opposite - they reduce tension and anxiety (and heart rates).If your mind wanders during a golf or snooker make you play a duff shot, take beater blockers and it takes that type of error away.
Must be getting my drugs mixed up. I do remember someone in golf, maybe John Daly, talking about using drugs to help you concentrate on the game. Thought that was beater blockers but may have been a reference to something else.0 -
Beta blockers are a serious drug to take for anything. You can not just come off them but have to wean yourself away. I got prescribed them but decided not to take them due to the risks associated with them compared to the benefits they offered. I have not doubt they would have some benefits to some people and indeed they are used in a varied set of conditions too.
Anyone with that much desire to win that they would risk taking beta blockers IMO are idiots pure and simple. Mind you there are plenty risking their life for even less benefit. There is a gym not far from my work that has a bad rep as being full of stegheads. I've heard one of the drugs of choice for these body builder types makes your muscles absorb fluids (water I guess) making them bulk up. The trouble is they turn you into a serious aggro type. All for a few hours of looking like you have larger muscles. The long term use is supposed to be at a risk of kidney failure and other serious complications. It is banned to sell it in this country and to use it I think but is very easy to get hold of apparently. I heard it is also injected so another thing to add to the list of long term risks.
Do you know what, this thread is starting to make me really pessimistic about sport. Why do we watch it / love it so if it is not clear what is actually clean and what is not?0 -
Oh boy listening to that Mo Farah presser, not only does he have an odd voice and manner he looks like he is happy to throw the man who made him what he is under the bus :roll:
He also says he does 120 miles a week. Seems a lot!
I have a mate who used to run at a fairly good level, county champ for half marathon I think, good xc runner too and when he was running he was doing 100 mile weeks and still working full time so for a full time athlete to be doing 120miles is expected. Runners often to split sessions so rather than doing 17 miles in one hit they probably to 10 in the morning then 7 in the evening for instance0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628585#p19628585]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:That statement I find amusing in light of an earlier comment about Mo Farah hitting the top at 27/28. Linford hit the top late on so is that a warning sign to look for??
In sweepingly general terms, sudden performance improvements in the late 20s are always suspicious (though not definitive) particularly for people who are already international athletes with access to coaching and advice. Coaching expertise will potentially add the extra margins to take someone from a contender to a winner, but won't convert an also ran to a winner.
Froome springs to mind0 -
Not really. He was tipped for big things when he turned pro/British in 2008 - he was talked up as UK's future GC contender - and had decent results at u23 level considering he came from a country with no cycling federation of note. He was a talent that had lost his way rather than a chump.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628585#p19628585]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:That statement I find amusing in light of an earlier comment about Mo Farah hitting the top at 27/28. Linford hit the top late on so is that a warning sign to look for??
In sweepingly general terms, sudden performance improvements in the late 20s are always suspicious (though not definitive) particularly for people who are already international athletes with access to coaching and advice. Coaching expertise will potentially add the extra margins to take someone from a contender to a winner, but won't convert an also ran to a winner.
Froome springs to mindTwitter: @RichN950 -
Not really. He was tipped for big things when he turned pro/British in 2008 - he was talked up as UK's future GC contender - and had decent results at u23 level considering he came from a country with no cycling federation of note. He was a talent that had lost his way rather than a chump.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628585#p19628585]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:That statement I find amusing in light of an earlier comment about Mo Farah hitting the top at 27/28. Linford hit the top late on so is that a warning sign to look for??
In sweepingly general terms, sudden performance improvements in the late 20s are always suspicious (though not definitive) particularly for people who are already international athletes with access to coaching and advice. Coaching expertise will potentially add the extra margins to take someone from a contender to a winner, but won't convert an also ran to a winner.
Froome springs to mind
And had an undiagnosed debilitating illness for some time.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
And had an undiagnosed debilitating illness for some time.
Froome really must be remarkable natural talent to perform consistently at "decent pro" level with such an illness.
Or...0 -
I'm not a close follower of athletics, but the parallels with are interesting. Are Farah's absolute performances suspect vs known dopers? And what significant institution (a la British Cycling) would crumble in the wake of any conviction?...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628872#p19628872]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:And had an undiagnosed debilitating illness for some time.
Froome really must be remarkable natural talent to perform consistently at "decent pro" level with such an illness.
Or...
Or he was a remarkable talent performing below his level....which is what he was...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I'm not a close follower of athletics, but the parallels with are interesting. Are Farah's absolute performances suspect vs known dopers? And what significant institution (a la British Cycling) would crumble in the wake of any conviction?
Can't think of any, why would there be?
(I know why...yawn)We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628872#p19628872]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:And had an undiagnosed debilitating illness for some time.
Froome really must be remarkable natural talent to perform consistently at "decent pro" level with such an illness.
Or...
Or he was a remarkable talent performing below his level....which is what he was...
I find it less likely to result in disappointment if I abide by Father-In-Law's investment advice: If it seems too good to be true then it probably is.0 -
I'm not a close follower of athletics, but the parallels with are interesting. Are Farah's absolute performances suspect vs known dopers? And what significant institution (a la British Cycling) would crumble in the wake of any conviction?
Can't think of any, why would there be?
(I know why...yawn)
Parallels in the sense that both athletics and cycling are Olympic sports with super-high profile and associated with plenty of national feel-good and oodles of national cash. If there was a positive close to the olympic cycling program it would be incredibly damaging. I'm suggesting nothing about the liklihood of it happening.
And if Froome, to take an example not associated with the olympic program, was associated with a Salazar character, it wouldn't matter what his performances were, he'd be toast....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628955#p19628955]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:
I find it less likely to result in disappointment if I abide by Father-In-Law's investment advice: If it seems too good to be true then it probably is.
Words lose their meaning when people exaggerate how superior Froome is to Contador, Quintana, Nibali, TJVG blah blah....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628872#p19628872]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:And had an undiagnosed debilitating illness for some time.
Froome really must be remarkable natural talent to perform consistently at "decent pro" level with such an illness.
Or...
I know this is off topic, and should know better than to get into this...
But that's the point, he wasn't performing at a decent pro level. He very nearly ended up out of a job, and the diagnosis probably saved his career.
And as for something seeming to be too good to be true, I don't think we're seeing that. If every athlete who performs better than others is immediately suspicious, what would the point in competition and your interest in it?It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
I'm not a close follower of athletics, but the parallels with are interesting. Are Farah's absolute performances suspect vs known dopers? And what significant institution (a la British Cycling) would crumble in the wake of any conviction?
Well, he's been beating them on a regular basis.
And not just known dopers but unknown dopers too.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19628955#p19628955]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:
I find it less likely to result in disappointment if I abide by Father-In-Law's investment advice: If it seems too good to be true then it probably is.
Words lose their meaning when people exaggerate how superior Froome is to Contador, Quintana, Nibali, TJVG blah blah.
In my context, too good to be true refers to going from nothing (in elite terms) to a GT podium in the space of a month aged 26.0 -
But that's the point, he wasn't performing at a decent pro level. He very nearly ended up out of a job, and the diagnosis probably saved his career.
And as for something seeming to be too good to be true, I don't think we're seeing that. If every athlete who performs better than others is immediately suspicious, what would the point in competition and your interest in it?
I've always been curious as to how Froome's illness lay undiagnosed for so long. Although his background is unusual, he comes from a well off family with access to proper health care. Likewise he'd been kicking round the World Tour for a few years with access to proper health care. The link between curing the illness and suddenly becoming a world-beater is just too good to be true (in my view - I could be wrong!)
To your second question, Froome's performance level isn't suspicious in itself; it's the fact that he suddenly arrived at that level aged 26 that is suspicious. But as it happens, doping in sport doesn't bother me particularly; competition is still competition and some competitors will always have better kit/preparation/support than others, so the interest is in seeing who wins. For example, I think both Froome and Contador are dopers, but it will still be fascinating to see if Berto has recovered from the Giro sufficiently to give Froome, Nibs and Qintana a run for their money in the Tour.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19629178#p19629178]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:But that's the point, he wasn't performing at a decent pro level. He very nearly ended up out of a job, and the diagnosis probably saved his career.
And as for something seeming to be too good to be true, I don't think we're seeing that. If every athlete who performs better than others is immediately suspicious, what would the point in competition and your interest in it?
I've always been curious as to how Froome's illness lay undiagnosed for so long. Although his background is unusual, he comes from a well off family with access to proper health care. Likewise he'd been kicking round the World Tour for a few years with access to proper health care. The link between curing the illness and suddenly becoming a world-beater is just too good to be true (in my view - I could be wrong!)
To your second question, Froome's performance level isn't suspicious in itself; it's the fact that he suddenly arrived at that level aged 26 that is suspicious. But as it happens, doping in sport doesn't bother me particularly; competition is still competition and some competitors will always have better kit/preparation/support than others, so the interest is in seeing who wins. For example, I think both Froome and Contador are dopers, but it will still be fascinating to see if Berto has recovered from the Giro sufficiently to give Froome, Nibs and Qintana a run for their money in the Tour.
I'm not sure Barloworld were screening for African waterborne parasites, or doing much more than giving their guys a bike and some kit and a cheque every month.
As to Farah, "I didn't hear the doorbell" is hardly up there with Floyd's Harley, is it? He needs to raise his test avoiding game."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
I'm not a close follower of athletics, but the parallels with are interesting. Are Farah's absolute performances suspect vs known dopers? And what significant institution (a la British Cycling) would crumble in the wake of any conviction?
Can't think of any, why would there be?
(I know why...yawn)
Parallels in the sense that both athletics and cycling are Olympic sports with super-high profile and associated with plenty of national feel-good and oodles of national cash. If there was a positive close to the olympic cycling program it would be incredibly damaging. I'm suggesting nothing about the liklihood of it happening.
I don't think so really. After all UK Athletics have been through Chrisite, Chambers, Ohurugu (sp?) etc. He ll be the dodgy guy that went off to all these wild backwater places rather than staying within the comfy confines of British Athletics etc etc Just like when a Team drops a lowly domestique who's been caught
It would be a low but i don't see much fallout from it other than for MoWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19629184#p19629184]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:I'm not sure Barloworld were screening for African waterborne parasites, or doing much more than giving their guys a bike and some kit and a cheque every month.
Maybe not, but there are plenty of doctors in Western Europe where Froome has been based for years. Obviously Froome would need to have visited one, but if you were experiencing fatigue such that your race performances were cr*p relative to training sessions or previous performance levels or if you experienced prolonged Bilharzia symptoms (including fevers, blood in urine and dysentery) then you'd probably go and see a doctor.
Anyone having recently visited Africa (let alone having lived there) who presented with such symptoms would presumably be screened for Bilharzia as it's the second most common tropical disease. The screening process is easy and reliable with the treatments safe and effective. The problem most folk with the disease have is lack of healthcare and prolonged exposure to unhygenic conditions.
So I remain suspicious!
All that said, I have sneaky admiration for Froome if the story about hacking into the Kenyan Cycling Fed's email account to enter the World Champs a few years ago is true. And he managed to engineer Wiggo out of the role of "Chosen One" at Sky, which must have taken some doing.0 -
From what I've heard, from a former Barloworld rider, the cheque wasn't even guaranteed every month.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19629184#p19629184]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
I'm not sure Barloworld were screening for African waterborne parasites, or doing much more than giving their guys a bike and some kit and a cheque every month.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19629201#p19629201]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19629184#p19629184]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:I'm not sure Barloworld were screening for African waterborne parasites, or doing much more than giving their guys a bike and some kit and a cheque every month.
Maybe not, but there are plenty of doctors in Western Europe where Froome has been based for years. Obviously Froome would need to have visited one, but if you were experiencing fatigue such that your race performances were cr*p relative to training sessions or previous performance levels or if you experienced prolonged Bilharzia symptoms (including fevers, blood in urine and dysentery) then you'd probably go and see a doctor.
Anyone having recently visited Africa (let alone having lived there) who presented with such symptoms would presumably be screened for Bilharzia as it's the second most common tropical disease. The screening process is easy and reliable with the treatments safe and effective. The problem most folk with the disease have is lack of healthcare and prolonged exposure to unhygenic conditions.
So I remain suspicious!
All that said, I have sneaky admiration for Froome if the story about hacking into the Kenyan Cycling Fed's email account to enter the World Champs a few years ago is true. And he managed to engineer Wiggo out of the role of "Chosen One" at Sky, which must have taken some doing.
Ah Presumably - such a good word isnt it...covers all manner of nonsenseWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19629201#p19629201]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19629184#p19629184]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:I'm not sure Barloworld were screening for African waterborne parasites, or doing much more than giving their guys a bike and some kit and a cheque every month.
Maybe not, but there are plenty of doctors in Western Europe where Froome has been based for years. Obviously Froome would need to have visited one, but if you were experiencing fatigue such that your race performances were cr*p relative to training sessions or previous performance levels or if you experienced prolonged Bilharzia symptoms (including fevers, blood in urine and dysentery) then you'd probably go and see a doctor.
Anyone having recently visited Africa (let alone having lived there) who presented with such symptoms would presumably be screened for Bilharzia as it's the second most common tropical disease. The screening process is easy and reliable with the treatments safe and effective. The problem most folk with the disease have is lack of healthcare and prolonged exposure to unhygenic conditions.
So I remain suspicious!
All that said, I have sneaky admiration for Froome if the story about hacking into the Kenyan Cycling Fed's email account to enter the World Champs a few years ago is true. And he managed to engineer Wiggo out of the role of "Chosen One" at Sky, which must have taken some doing.
I would also suggest that dropping about 10kg (see the picture of him and Wiggins from the 2009 nationals) may have helped matters."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0
