Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped

TMR

dennisn wrote:

Just how does someone who can't put a sentence together steal the Presidency???

I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious.

You sound a little bitter? Why is that????

As above.

tailwindhome

dennisn wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

George Bush is a f*cking clown shoes who stole the Presidency. He can barely string a sentence together.

Just how does someone who can't put a sentence together steal the Presidency???You sound a little bitter? Why is that????

Same as anyone else.

Money, connections and lawyers.

greasedscotsman

The Mad Rapper wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

I don't get the clown shoes bit.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... clownshoes

Fair enough. I didn't know what a fapper was when it was mentioned on another part of the forum (Mr Chasey!). I'm obviously not down with the kids.

pat1cp

Pross wrote:

VerwoodAsh wrote:

But from what I feel of some of the contributors here is that he introduced drugs into cycling and was a pioneer. In the affidavits I have read, a lot of the witnesses admitted to doping before and afterwards. But hey ho - they were just the innocents caught up in the mess. USADA went after the big names and let the others get off almost scott free.

I think it was more that he helped turn what was previously an ad hoc system of doping into an organised, team-wide systematic regime. The conspiracy aspect of it was what the USADA went after rather than just trying to prove Armstrong was just a high profile and successful doper. He appears to have been the person with the power to boot people off the team if they had the strength to refuse to enter the programme. I agree that those who had already crossed the line are in a weak position but there are plenty of others who saw friends losing their job and so went along with it.

Festina wasn't ad hoc and that preceeded USPS.

TMR

greasedscotsman wrote:

Fair enough. I didn't know what a fapper was when it was mentioned on another part of the forum (Mr Chasey!). I'm obviously not down with the kids.

I heard it mentioned in a movie, I think it was Good Will Hunting. I've been waiting for an opportunity to use it on the Internet ever since

Pross

pat1cp wrote:

Pross wrote:

VerwoodAsh wrote:

But from what I feel of some of the contributors here is that he introduced drugs into cycling and was a pioneer. In the affidavits I have read, a lot of the witnesses admitted to doping before and afterwards. But hey ho - they were just the innocents caught up in the mess. USADA went after the big names and let the others get off almost scott free.

I think it was more that he helped turn what was previously an ad hoc system of doping into an organised, team-wide systematic regime. The conspiracy aspect of it was what the USADA went after rather than just trying to prove Armstrong was just a high profile and successful doper. He appears to have been the person with the power to boot people off the team if they had the strength to refuse to enter the programme. I agree that those who had already crossed the line are in a weak position but there are plenty of others who saw friends losing their job and so went along with it.

Festina wasn't ad hoc and that preceeded USPS.

I assume the above comment is making the point that those in this case who admitted to doping before being involved with LA have been let off lightly for helping to catch the big fish which is undoubtably true but the reason they have gone after the big fish isn't just because he personally doped but because he encouraged an entire team to do so as well. Those who admitted doping previously seem to have done so on an ad hoc basis e.g. Barry admits to doing it once prior to USPS.

dennisn

TailWindHome wrote:

dennisn wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

George Bush is a f*cking clown shoes who stole the Presidency. He can barely string a sentence together.

Just how does someone who can't put a sentence together steal the Presidency???You sound a little bitter? Why is that????

Same as anyone else.
Money, connections and lawyers.

I agree, to a point, but those aren't the only reasons. Bunches of people have to like you before you can get there.
Sort of like some people say LA was the most hated rider in the peloton but to win that race, even on drugs, you have to have a friend or two. Someone must like you or you'll get nothing from anyone.

dennisn

The Mad Rapper wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Just how does someone who can't put a sentence together steal the Presidency???

I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious.

You sound a little bitter? Why is that????

As above.

Strangely enough it's a serious couple of questions. I usually ask questions because I'm curious, although most people think I'm trolling. And yes, I do, like lots of others, troll just a little or as I like to call it "Stir the pot of sh*t".

Pross

dennisn wrote:

I agree, to a point, but those aren't the only reasons. Bunches of people have to like you before you can get there.
Sort of like some people say LA was the most hated rider in the peloton but to win that race, even on drugs, you have to have a friend or two. Someone must like you or you'll get nothing from anyone.

Or alternatively you have to be rich enough to buy influence and the sort of friends who will intimidate people from acting against you.

Richmond Racer

Spot on piece re riders silence and the Taliban of Twitter (great phrase)

http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/cycling-witch-trials/

Nick Fitt

I think pretty much everyone in the world (except me) bought into the LA story. And so everyone in the peloton thought he was just a boss guy. No-one wanted to cross him though a bit like the school bully and a bit like the school bully, you were happy not to upset his (GC) plans unless of course you were accepted competition/other team leader. Hence the school bully reigned. As they were all on drugs, no-one gave a fuck as long as the fairies kept dancing

pat1cp

Pross wrote:

pat1cp wrote:

Pross wrote:

VerwoodAsh wrote:

But from what I feel of some of the contributors here is that he introduced drugs into cycling and was a pioneer. In the affidavits I have read, a lot of the witnesses admitted to doping before and afterwards. But hey ho - they were just the innocents caught up in the mess. USADA went after the big names and let the others get off almost scott free.

I think it was more that he helped turn what was previously an ad hoc system of doping into an organised, team-wide systematic regime. The conspiracy aspect of it was what the USADA went after rather than just trying to prove Armstrong was just a high profile and successful doper. He appears to have been the person with the power to boot people off the team if they had the strength to refuse to enter the programme. I agree that those who had already crossed the line are in a weak position but there are plenty of others who saw friends losing their job and so went along with it.

Festina wasn't ad hoc and that preceeded USPS.

I assume the above comment is making the point that those in this case who admitted to doping before being involved with LA have been let off lightly for helping to catch the big fish which is undoubtably true but the reason they have gone after the big fish isn't just because he personally doped but because he encouraged an entire team to do so as well. Those who admitted doping previously seem to have done so on an ad hoc basis e.g. Barry admits to doing it once prior to USPS.

No it wasn't with regard to that. You said Armstrong turned an ad hoc juice up done by the riders into a systematic regime. I'm just saying that Willy Voet got caught with 200 vials of EPO in his car in 1998.

dennisn

Pross wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I agree, to a point, but those aren't the only reasons. Bunches of people have to like you before you can get there.
Sort of like some people say LA was the most hated rider in the peloton but to win that race, even on drugs, you have to have a friend or two. Someone must like you or you'll get nothing from anyone.

Or alternatively you have to be rich enough to buy influence and the sort of friends who will intimidate people from acting against you.

Sure, money will buy lots of things but I think you make LA out to be richer than he is.
If he and his supporters have or had as much money as you say why bother with all the drugs? Just go out and buy / bribe your way to seven wins. Simply pay everyone else off
and bingo you're a winner. Maybe you could bride a few and with enough money you could bribe them all but, to me, that's in the realm of conpriracy theory and I'm not sure who or what company has that kind of money and / or pull and be willing to risk it. Besides I don't believe he had no friends in the peloton. People have friends, even if you're the worst of scoundrels. I have a few friends who are real *ssholes at times yet they are still my friends and, whether they are right or wrong, I'm glad to have them.

Turfle

Can't see it mentioned already.

VeloNews ‏@velonews
Omega Pharma-Quick Step has terminated its contract with Levi Leipheimer.

knedlicky

pat1cp wrote:

Pross wrote:

pat1cp wrote:

Pross wrote:

VerwoodAsh wrote:

But from what I feel of some of the contributors here is that he introduced drugs into cycling ...

I think it was more that he helped turn what was previously an ad hoc system of doping into an organised, team-wide systematic regime....

Festina wasn't ad hoc and that preceeded USPS.

I assume the above comment is making the point that those in this case who admitted to doping before being involved with LA have been let off lightly ...

No it wasn't with regard to that. You said Armstrong turned an ad hoc juice up done by the riders into a systematic regime. I'm just saying that Willy Voet got caught with 200 vials of EPO in his car in 1998.

Festina didn’t ‘preceed’. The Festina year was the year that different drugs in the possession of the US Postal team were flushed down the toilet in case the police paid them a visit too, like the police had done to Festina and TVM.

That year, it’s estimated almost half the peloton doped and considerable doping went on in at least half the teams, but only in 4 teams is there evidence that doping was ‘organised’ by management (systematic regime): Festina, Polti, TVM and US Postal. (Although I imagine it did at ONCE too)

pat1cp

Festina was pre Lance at USPS, and that's what I'm talking about. This thread is about LA.

knedlicky

pat1cp wrote:

Festina was pre Lance at USPS, and that's what I'm talking about. This thread is about LA.

Festina wasn’t pre-Lance at USPS.
Armstrong was under contract US Postal at the time of the 1998 Tour, he just didn’t take part in that particular Tour. But he did do the World Championships and the Tour of Spain that summer.

The reason LA’s results since August that year have been annulled is because at the World Championships the same US Postal team doctor who had been at the Tour gave LA a salt solution to lower his hematocrit levels before he went to the dope controls.

That the two were close enough for them to do that highly suggests that LA was by then part of the ‘systematic regime’ at US Postal, and they were repeating something which had already been tried and tested with him.

sherer

pat1cp wrote:

Festina was pre Lance at USPS, and that's what I'm talking about. This thread is about LA.

Well LA did ride the Vuelta and finish forth so I imagine by then he knew \ help decide what was going on. hadn't he been at USPS since Paris - Nice ?

pat1cp

But the OP said that L.A. turned an ad hoc doping team into "a team wide doping regime". I was saying that wasn't the case, team doping was widespread prior to 98'.

Richmond Racer

Well, this thread is progressing very nicely

sherer

yes there was doping but as stated it seems LA didn't think the current doctor was prepared to go far enough with the doping and had him replaced and also installed Bruyneel in charge. If he could pull the strings to get that done then I think he shows he had his feet firmly under the table by the end of 98

pat1cp

So I'm right then???

Richmond Racer

(warning: contains photo of Fat Pat)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ol ... story.html

ooh, let's see who won gold and silver in the 2000 TT...

Gold: Ekimov
Silver: Ullrich

*lays down head on desk and weeps noisily*

ocdupalais

Sorry to be pedantic: just got to do something that has been bugging me for a while...

ocdupalais

...that's better.

tailwindhome

OCDuPalais wrote:

...that's better.

Mwahahahah!

ocdupalais

You git.

Matchstick Man

On the point about whether doping was systematic (team driven) or done individually, cast your minds back to 1995 and the team known as Le Groupement.
Graham Obree had signed for them but left within a matter of days as it was found out that riders were expected to contribute to a slush fund out of their prize winnings which was to pay for the drugs. This is the team that Luc Leblanc signed for who had ridden for Festina the year before so the concept of team wide doping was not new to USPS only 36 months later.

rick_chasey

Dick Pound is good with the words....

"There was certainly generalised knowledge that there had been some payments from Armstrong to the UCI. It's hard to think of the UCI as a charity and Lance somebody filled with [charitable] spirit."

blazing_saddles

Some good dirt in the Clinic on the Nike-Armstrong-Verbruggen triangle.

THE TOUR de France rider found with corticoids in his system was yesterday cleared by cycling's top anti-doping official, Leon Schattenberg. The sports newspaper L'Equipe had reported that a rider tested after the Tour prologue last week had been found with traces of corticoids in his urine.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycl ... 05277.html

Corticoids are derivatives of cortisone, and riders are obliged to declare if they are using such medication or face sanctions. However, Schattenberg, the head of the International Cycling Union (UCI) anti-doping commission, said: "One rider showed up, as certain media has reported, but he had a valid medical certificate."

The UCI president, Hein Verbruggen, had warned riders before the Tour about a new test set up by a French laboratory in Chatenay-Malabry, near Paris, making it possible to detect corticoids, which so far have been almost impossible to trace.

The Tour director, Jean-Marie Leblanc, said: "Hein Verbruggen warned riders that the French lab could detect corticoids. Now [if] you are telling me that corticoids have been in use for 20 years, you can't expect that riders will stop using them three days before the Tour." Leblanc said all deterrents were good but he would understand a UCI decision to be lenient if it turned out to concern only small amounts of corticoids.

The American Lance Armstrong, one of the four riders tested on Saturday, said he was not too worried. "Yes, I was one of the four riders tested that day because I won it. No, I have not received any message from the UCI."

http://www.texnews.com/texas97/lance102797.html

Bill Stapleton, Armstrong's agent, said his client is more marketable now than he was before the cancer, although he said many cycling teams view him as "damaged goods." Cofidis, his former team, dropped him on Sept. 1 because officials said they needed to go in another direction. Several weeks after Armstrong's diagnosis, the team renegotiated his contract, lowering his salary from $1.2 million to about $800,000 because he could not pass a physical.

Armstrong will receive a base of about $400,000 from the U.S. Postal Service. His contract is laced with performance-based incentives, and he could make as much as he did back in 1996.

This summer Armstrong picked up a new sponsor in CycleOps, which is producing a training bike. He also has a shoe deal with Nike and a sunglasses endorsement with Oakley.

"Lance isn't just a cyclist anymore - because of the cancer, the Lance Armstrong brand has a much broader appeal," Stapleton said. "Our challenge is to leverage that now. He's on the verge of being a crossover-type spokesman. He could be just like an athlete who does a Pepsi or Gatorade commercial. If his comeback has success, we hope to take him to a Kodak or Sony and hope they will turn him into a corporate pitchman.

"We're really just beginning. In January and February people will realize that Lance is back on the bike. And once they realize it, that's when the marketing will pay off."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/09/news/former-german-cycling-president-blasts-ucis-handling-of-armstrong-case_8889

“There is obviously a strong relationship with Armstrong,” Schenk added. “The UCI took a lot of money from Armstrong – to my knowledge 500,000 dollars – and now there is speculation that there are financial connections to Armstrong, as well as the American market. I do not know what sort of connections Verbruggen has.”