Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped

dennisn

LangerDan wrote:

From "El Pais" - 27 July 2009

"Yo iba en fuga y me acaba de alcanzar el grupo de Contador y Armstrong. Iba por la izquierda de la carretera y cuando me alcanzó Contador, que iba por el centro, le ofrecí mi bidón, porque vi que él no tenía agua y soy su amigo", cuenta el cántabro Iván Gutiérrez, el número uno en fugas (581 kilómetros escapado, sin recompensa). "Pero fue alargar el brazo con el agua, cuando Armstrong, que iba un poco más retrasado, por el centro, lo cogió al vuelo y se adelantó a Alberto. Después de beber se lo ofreció a Alberto, pero éste pasó. Y ya se lo iba a quedar cuando le recordé que era mío, que me lo devolviera".

Or roughly translated
“I was in the breakaway when the group of Armstrong and Contador caught up with me. I was on the left of the road when Contador got to me. I offered him my bottle because I saw that he didn’t have any water and I am his friend,” says Ivan Gutierrez, who is number one in breakaways (in the entire Tour did 581 miles by himself.) “But, I extended my arm with the water when Armstrong who was a little behind me grabbed it on the fly taking it from Alberto’s reach. After drinking it, he offered it to Alberto, but he passed. And he was going to keep it when I reminded him it was mine and for him to return it."

Now that doesn't sound like anything quite a horrible as "frenchfighter" has conjured up.

frenchfighter

dougzz wrote:

sherer wrote:

Basically he was stopping Contador getting a drink when he needed one. Any chance to get a slight advantage

Guttierez though was on a different (Trade) team to Bert, maybe Lance thought 'buying' favours like that ungentlemanly and intervened to ensure fair play. I inserted (Trade) as I wasn't sure of their positions in the Spanish best doper wins collective.

What a stupid comment. Not surprising coming from you duggy boy.

frenchfighter

LangerDan wrote:

"And he was going to keep it when I reminded him it was mine and for him to return it."

That is the bit I forgot and that was the bit that made me chuckle at the time and did on re-reading it.

dennisn

Richmond Racer wrote:

dennis, why not use google search to find out what went on between Contador and Armstrong in the 09 Tour. That will give you an idea as to why Contador wouldnt accept anything from Armstrong.

Its an amazing thing, the internet. Lots to find out. And google's not a bad search engine though you appear to struggle with it.

To be honest, it's not me that's making all these statements about what is and isn't a fact. If you make a statement, all I'm doing is asking you to come up with your proof(such as it may be). It's not up to me to prove that what you say is right / wrong. It's up to you. You made the claim that this or that is how it went. If you can't back it up right then and there, of what good is asking ME to prove it? I didn't say it. I, and I doubt anyone else, has either the time or the inclination to search for your proofs. If you can't provide any credible "links" to what you claim then all I can do is assume that something has caught your eye and you've written it up to suit your agenda. When I read something without "backup" it raises questions and like you(when you read my posts) it may get filed in the "this guys a nut" folder. In other words if it's what you think happened then say it's only what YOU think happened. At least then others will know that it may or may not be fact.

I'm thinking it went down like this, I'll bet it happened this way, my best guess is that, my theory is, that sort of thing. Take credit - responsibility for your OWN thoughts and give credit for the thoughts of others whom you are simply rehashing.

Richmond Racer

who's this 'You' you're always bleating about? Not me, not anyone I know, and usually its not anyone on this forum.

you posting here is really just a lazy alternative to you going outside your home and howling at the moon.

rob churchill

dennisn wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Just google it. The results will corroborate what I've described above.

Google what? :?

This.

B3rnieMac

Dennis, since this a pro race forum, maybe if you watched the races you would have seen this happen at the time? The rest of us all did.

dennisn

rob churchill wrote:

dennisn wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Just google it. The results will corroborate what I've described above.

Google what? :?

This.

Thanx. That(this) took me to a plethora of websites but alas no video. So was this a video or a picture?
In any case I'm going to go with "LangerDan"s explanation. Seems perfectly plausible. A moment in a race. Nothing more.

dougzz

frenchfighter wrote:

dougzz wrote:

sherer wrote:

Basically he was stopping Contador getting a drink when he needed one. Any chance to get a slight advantage

Guttierez though was on a different (Trade) team to Bert, maybe Lance thought 'buying' favours like that ungentlemanly and intervened to ensure fair play. I inserted (Trade) as I wasn't sure of their positions in the Spanish best doper wins collective.

What a stupid comment. Not surprising coming from you duggy boy.

Smartarse remarks aside, don't you find the 'he's my friend' a little unsavoury?

Edit: Also, I suppose the underlying point is that given what LA has done to cycling, you pulling up this incident is ridiculous. I know it involved Bertie, and that causes you great personal affront, but don't you think in regard to what LA did this is a non incident?

frenchfighter

Is there a law or even sporting reason not to have friends?! No. Contador is a class man - so many in the peloton like him and will help him if he needs it. That is something that is earned and something Lance would never have.

There is no point trying to defend Lance in this incident. It is totally unsporting, childlike and un called for. Not surprising though as Contador would eat Lanceo for breakfast in a talent sense so the desperate American had to try and beat (his own teammate - fail) in other ways.

Obviously it isn't the worst thing he has done by any mean however it is demonstrative of his low grade character.

ddraver

You'd havea point Frenchie, apart from the reality that when Armstrong was riding he had 175/180 odd friends in the peloton who were all 100% behind him stopping the truth coming out..

Unfortunately, both of them are cheaters and neither of them have high grade characters

nathancom

This is all a bit 'handbags at dawn' stuff now but it is truly amazing how Dennis can argue over anything.

Dennis, the sun will rise tomorrow morning and grass is green.

dennisn

nathancom wrote:

This is all a bit 'handbags at dawn' stuff now but it is truly amazing how Dennis can argue over anything.

Dennis, the sun will rise tomorrow morning and grass is green.

It will only rise if the scheduled apocalypse is somehow delayed, and right now you couldn't prove that green grass theory by looking out a window. Too much snow.

As for the "water bottle debacle" I'm sure that "FF" saw, in that picture, an evil doer(LA) getting the best of a saint(AC) for a moment. I simply pointed out that I thought differently. I saw LA and another rider, each with a hand on a water bottle. Pretty much exactly what I would expect to see in a bike race. I saw AC right behind LA. Not surprising since AC wouldn't have wanted LA to "get away" and I'm sure AC, being in yellow, wouldn't be looking to lead LA up the climb. I read the articles. No one, including the riders involved, seemed to think much about it. So, for myself, and maybe a few others, I took "FF" and his theory that this was a sign of the coming apocalypse and filed it in the trash section of my brain.

nic_77

dennisn wrote:

As for the "water bottle debacle" I'm sure that "FF" saw, in that picture, an evil doer(LA) getting the best of a saint(AC) for a moment. I simply pointed out that I thought differently.

And it has since been pointed out to you that FF did not simply derive his understanding of the scenario from the picture, but instead from the thorough coverage that this incident received at the time (I for one remember watching this fairly cynical act at the time) and the clear witness account from one of the three parties involved (i.e. IG). It is only you that has tried to garner meaning from the picture.

A simple apology to everyone for wasting their time will surfice.

dennisn

nic_77 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

As for the "water bottle debacle" I'm sure that "FF" saw, in that picture, an evil doer(LA) getting the best of a saint(AC) for a moment. I simply pointed out that I thought differently.

And it has since been pointed out to you that FF did not simply derive his understanding of the scenario from the picture, but instead from the thorough coverage that this incident received at the time (I for one remember watching this fairly cynical act at the time) and the clear witness account from one of the three parties involved (i.e. IG). It is only you that has tried to garner meaning from the picture.

I'm still betting that "FF" pretty much only sees rage and anger about LA when he comes across LA's picture, likeness, a video of, or hears his name mentioned. Add AC(his hero) into the mix and you've most likely got "frothing"(to quote another thread). An enraged, frothing, mad, man doesn't sound much like the type of person to give a balanced picture of things. I think a few people will have to agree with that. Do YOU really believe what a screaming, name calling, person says about the object of his rage? Sounds like it might be a bit slanted to me. Just a bit. I will however defend to the death his right to "froth". Your's too. It's called freedom, and I have it too.

dmclite-3.0

Crumbs this water bottle chat is a bit picky isn't it ? Or is it just indicative of the strength of bad feeling toward LA ? Whatever the small incident may have been I don't think it warrants all the time it is getting.
Just my 5p, feel free to ignore.

No_Ta_Doctor

I reckon I'd have done exactly the same as LA in this, regardless of the fact he's undoubtedly the Great Satan.

Sharing a bidon is often highly symbolic (check the Bartali & Coppi pics if you doubt me, and the continuing debate about them - they were staged, btw). Sharing a bidon across teams, but only with a specific rider in the break, snubbing the others? Now unless you've got a very good sporting reason to do so then that's pretty unsporting. These aren't mates out on a training ride, they're racing against each other in the biggest race of the season.

LA just sent a clear message - I won't allow you to gang up on me as a clique. Fair play to him. Whatever else you can say about him, he knew how to play the peloton power games (and yes, he could be as underhand and dirty in that as in every other aspect of his life).

Final note: Robert Millar's lost Vuelta. Case history in not controlling the peloton.

frenchfighter

Interesting take. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with that - not least as Lanceo doesn't have a clue about the sports history. As has been mentioned many times, Lanceo tried the whole race to undermine and try and exert his 'power' (oooooooh) on Contador. He failed. Must try harder next time...oh.

Friends exist in sports. There is nothing wrong with it and perfectly normal.

Good job you are not racing - do something like that and next time you flat they will turn up the gas. You earn respect not bully your way into it. Contador has been helped a few times with good effect - they help him because he earned it in the past. Ask any proper pro what they think of cultivating favors.

ddraver

Trouble is you re ignoring 10 years of History here Frenchie...Sh1t, dope fuelled, depressing history I admit, but still history...

Whole thing has a no honour amongst thieves feel to it...

Richmond Racer

No tA Doctor wrote:

I reckon I'd have done exactly the same as LA in this, regardless of the fact he's undoubtedly the Great Satan.

Sharing a bidon is often highly symbolic (check the Bartali & Coppi pics if you doubt me, and the continuing debate about them - they were staged, btw). Sharing a bidon across teams, but only with a specific rider in the break, snubbing the others? Now unless you've got a very good sporting reason to do so then that's pretty unsporting. These aren't mates out on a training ride, they're racing against each other in the biggest race of the season.

LA just sent a clear message - I won't allow you to gang up on me as a clique. Fair play to him. Whatever else you can say about him, he knew how to play the peloton power games (and yes, he could be as underhand and dirty in that as in every other aspect of his life).

Final note: Robert Millar's lost Vuelta. Case history in not controlling the peloton.

You make some interesting points here. God, did Lance know how to control the peloton...

dave_1

I see Lance is being tagged corrupt race fixer. Thrift Drug race deal he did should get dug up only when all stars of the1980s get their payments to rival teams revisited

Richmond Racer

Dave_1 wrote:

I see Lance is being tagged corrupt race fixer. Thrift Drug race deal he did should get dug up only when all stars of the1980s get their payments to rival teams revisited

Much as I loathe Lance, have to say when I read the article (with Aussie news prog focusing on it) my first thought was how many questionable practices of cycling do they want to put at his doorstep...

dave_1

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I see Lance is being tagged corrupt race fixer. Thrift Drug race deal he did should get dug up only when all stars of the1980s get their payments to rival teams revisited

Much as I loathe Lance, have to say when I read the article (with Aussie news prog focusing on it) my first thought was how many questionable practices of cycling do they want to put at his doorstep...

I agree RR. Payments to rival team riders is convention riders accept. Millar blamed his vuelta loss partly on deals not done. Thip 4 corners documentary has mentioned this I hope.

Richmond Racer

Dave_1 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I see Lance is being tagged corrupt race fixer. Thrift Drug race deal he did should get dug up only when all stars of the1980s get their payments to rival teams revisited

Much as I loathe Lance, have to say when I read the article (with Aussie news prog focusing on it) my first thought was how many questionable practices of cycling do they want to put at his doorstep...

I agree RR. Payments to rival team riders is convention riders accept. Millar blamed his vuelta loss partly on deals not done. Thip 4 corners documentary has mentioned this I hope.

I'm just waiting for a story to emerge that he jumped on a train during a race at some point :roll:

No_Ta_Doctor

frenchfighter wrote:

Interesting take. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with that - not least as Lanceo doesn't have a clue about the sports history. As has been mentioned many times, Lanceo tried the whole race to undermine and try and exert his 'power' (oooooooh) on Contador. He failed. Must try harder next time...oh.

Friends exist in sports. There is nothing wrong with it and perfectly normal.

Good job you are not racing - do something like that and next time you flat they will turn up the gas. You earn respect not bully your way into it. Contador has been helped a few times with good effect - they help him because he earned it in the past. Ask any proper pro what they think of cultivating favors.

Yeah, you're right. Lance had no idea what he was doing.

Did anyone ever pile onto the front when Armstrong had a flat, btw? Or when he dropped a chain?.....

k-dog

None of the Postal/Disco riders ever had a flat in those 7 Tours!

Supposedly down to the mechanic ageing the tubulars in his basement.

dennisn

k-dog wrote:

None of the Postal/Disco riders ever had a flat in those 7 Tours!

Supposedly down to the mechanic ageing the tubulars in his basement.

I heard that the tubulars themselves were drugged. Very high tech.
Sort of begs the question of whether or not there are any restrictions on tires a rider can use?

sherer

k-dog wrote:

None of the Postal/Disco riders ever had a flat in those 7 Tours!

Supposedly down to the mechanic ageing the tubulars in his basement.

I saw LA change a wheel once and i'm sure that wasn't the only time either. If it happened to the other riders they wouldn't have been important enough to be shown on TV

rob churchill

dennisn wrote:

k-dog wrote:

None of the Postal/Disco riders ever had a flat in those 7 Tours!

Supposedly down to the mechanic ageing the tubulars in his basement.

I heard that the tubulars themselves were drugged. Very high tech.
Sort of begs the question of whether or not there are any restrictions on tires a rider can use?

Nothing in the UCI technical regs except cyclocross tires are size restricted and can't have studs or spikes. General rules apply, all equipment must be stuff that's on sale to the public etc.

You're right about the tubulars being drugged though, I heard some of them were totally pumped.

thomthom

Lance had flats just like everyone else. He rarely hit the deck, though, as no one dared to ride beside him but his teammates in the hectic moments.