The official TrainerRoad thread

bobmcstuff

Current FTP 263, was expecting/hoping for a small increase due to having recently completed the second half of Sustained Power Build in prep for a <20 minute hill climb event this weekend (so extra annoying not to be able to hack it).

I got about 3 minutes in and exploded, I was feeling alright beforehand so I wasn't expecting it to be that bad.

Only thing is I have still got quite badly strained hamstrings due to spending Sunday sanding a floor with a handheld belt sander, I couldn't really feel it on the bike but I think it might have been costing me efficiency. Also not good prep for my hill climb but that's life.

Anyway I threw my toys out the pram, had a sulk and then went straight into some punishment Over/Unders without reducing the intensity (Bear Creek 30), which went predictably badly and I had to stop to be sick. Definitely not advisable.

I plan to do pretty much the same as last year - that is take it easy for a few weeks then start up Sweetspot Base some time in October, then do General Build which will take me into roughly April in good form. I was doing really well in April/May this year then I spent 6 weeks away for work during May-July which ruined everything.

bobmcstuff

Slowmart wrote:

There's no such thing as failed FTP Bob,it's a measurement at a point in a journey. Failure only happens when you give up

Yeah, I had gone way too hard to keep the interval up though. It's weird cos I was feeling pretty strong beforehand, and I'm usually quite good at pacing.

I don't mind doing a test and getting a lower FTP generally speaking, I've done plenty of tests before which gave lower numbers, just annoying to do it after finishing a plan (and being pretty well recovered bike-wise) and especially before an event I wanted to do well in.

shazzz

Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a lightning ANT+ dongle so that I can use my iPad without having to buy the Wahoo dongle and a 30 pin to lightning adaptor?
Thanks

slowmart

Shazzz, no blue tooth on the pad?

nicklong

Has anyone still seen decent improvements after a couple of few seasons on TR?

My FTP has hovered between 270-280W (4.3-4.4 W/Kg) for 2 race seasons, despite following a full SSB and 2 decent build phases across both seasons. I've just started another round of SSB1 going into my 2018 plan, but wonder whether my body is now "peaking" when it comes to the TR format?

I had goals of hitting 5W/Kg this year and so was a bit demotivated when my FTP just wouldn't do up, regular TTs confirmed the same throughout the season (my NP over 10 miles was always within the same 5W range).

bobmcstuff

nicklong wrote:

Has anyone still seen decent improvements after a couple of few seasons on TR?

My FTP has hovered between 270-280W (4.3-4.4 W/Kg) for 2 race seasons, despite following a full SSB and 2 decent build phases across both seasons. I've just started another round of SSB1 going into my 2018 plan, but wonder whether my body is now "peaking" when it comes to the TR format?

I had goals of hitting 5W/Kg this year and so was a bit demotivated when my FTP just wouldn't do up, regular TTs confirmed the same throughout the season (my NP over 10 miles was always within the same 5W range).

Personally have only done Base-Build-Specialty-Base-Build so probably not qualified to comment just yet - but have you listened to their podcast? You can submit questions on their website, by email, or by twitter and their head coach, one of the assistant coaches and the CEO will answer them. I think they also respond directly to your emails with coaching questions too. This question seems prime for them to discuss as there must be a lot of people in similar situations.

Edit to say, which version of the plans are you doing? E.g., if you are doing mid volume, going to high volume might give some further gains. It seems logical that after a while of doing essentially similar training stress you would even out.

Also, I am jealous of your W/kg

shazzz

Slowmart wrote:

Shazzz, no blue tooth on the pad?

Yes, the iPad has bluetooth but my powertaps do not so far as I am aware (a 7yr old Pro+ and a ~3yr old G3).

shazzz

nicklong wrote:

Has anyone still seen decent improvements after a couple of few seasons on TR?

My FTP has hovered between 270-280W (4.3-4.4 W/Kg) for 2 race seasons, despite following a full SSB and 2 decent build phases across both seasons. I've just started another round of SSB1 going into my 2018 plan, but wonder whether my body is now "peaking" when it comes to the TR format?

I had goals of hitting 5W/Kg this year and so was a bit demotivated when my FTP just wouldn't do up, regular TTs confirmed the same throughout the season (my NP over 10 miles was always within the same 5W range).

At 4.3-4.4 W/kg you're probably at a point where a tailored plan from a coach, aimed at your specific strengths and weaknesses, is going to be a lot more useful than the generic TR plans. Does your club have a coach?

barry_kellett99

If you are following the same plans in volume and intensity more or less, year on year, there will be no improvement really. You need to increase volume or intensity or both as they say. I have improved 0.2 w/kg this year but it was a fairly huge time commitment to do 2 blocks of High Volume SSB. I also haven't raced properly yet with that extra 0.2w/g. So will wait and see if its been worth it

nicklong

Thanks - that's what I suspected but don't want to hear

In terms of plan history:
Season 1 - mainly Sufferfest and general build workouts, unstructured: 247 to 264
Season 2 - gen build mid volume, RR race mid volume, half of short power build: 264 to 278
Season 3 - full SSB 1&2 mid volume, general build high volume, climbing road race mid volume: 271 to 280 briefly and back to 272.

Sticking to a high volume plan leads to a pretty hermitic lifestyle, early nights and near total abstinence! How do others find it?

A mate of mine had a coach this season and the demands seemed exhausting (duration and intensity), he's knocking on the door of getting his Cat 1 license though so something is working.

daniel_b

shazzz wrote:

nicklong wrote:

Has anyone still seen decent improvements after a couple of few seasons on TR?

My FTP has hovered between 270-280W (4.3-4.4 W/Kg) for 2 race seasons, despite following a full SSB and 2 decent build phases across both seasons. I've just started another round of SSB1 going into my 2018 plan, but wonder whether my body is now "peaking" when it comes to the TR format?

I had goals of hitting 5W/Kg this year and so was a bit demotivated when my FTP just wouldn't do up, regular TTs confirmed the same throughout the season (my NP over 10 miles was always within the same 5W range).

At 4.3-4.4 W/kg you're probably at a point where a tailored plan from a coach, aimed at your specific strengths and weaknesses, is going to be a lot more useful than the generic TR plans. Does your club have a coach?

Hi Shazzz - not taking the wee wee here, just curious what your reasoning is for an actual coach at that kind of power output?
It would certainly seem to be logical, giving if the OP is struggling to see any gains, but just wondered if you had any previous experience that you were using, or if at that level it just generally made sense period?

Does anyone know what kind of w\kg a non professional could reasonably expect to reach purely using TR, and probably mid level as a maximum as well?
I realise that is a 'how long is a piece of string' question, just wondered if anyone had previous experience to go on, and real world figures - or maybe Nick would know?

@Nicklong -that's a serious load of watts you are packing there, very impressive.
I have not tried a high volume plan, I don't think I would have enough hours in the week to do it justice, and would just end up being dispirited I think.
Maybe a better option would be to go mid volume, and stick in another workout as and when the opportunity presents.

bobmcstuff

Daniel B wrote:

Might just have been a bad day\lack of sleep\coming down with something?

I now have tonsilitis - turns out I was coming down with something after all.

Euuuuurrrggghhh........

daniel_b

bobmcstuff wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

Might just have been a bad day\lack of sleep\coming down with something?

I now have tonsilitis - turns out I was coming down with something after all.

Euuuuurrrggghhh........

Well I guess that is kind of good news, in a bad news kind of way :-(

Never had it, and hope never to - how long does it generally take to get over, and can you do some easy turbo sessions to keep you ticking over, or not advised?
Hope you shift it asap anyway, and it doesn't have too big an effect on your performance.

bobmcstuff

Haven't had it since I was young, so no idea really.

Can't really eat, which should be good for my weight if nothing else.

I'll probably try an easy spin just because I can't really do anything else and I'm bored.

deadlegs

Hi, some advice needed please... Recently come back to TR after year off. I've been cycling loads and fitter/faster/completed longer rides than last year. I tested and was training at 245W last year, so expected to be higher with current fitness.

20 Min FTP: attempted at 265W, crashed & burned. TR suggested reduce FTP to 230W.

I ignored suggestion and started Sweet spot base Low Vol 1 at 250W FTP. I've done 5 workouts and found them fairly easy (not out of breath and only last intervals taxing). So I did another 20 min FTP today (after 2 days rest).
20 Min FTP: attempted at 255W, crashed & burned again! TR suggested reduce FTP to 225W.

How did I do worse even with a lower target? Am I just weak at testing? I run hot normally and don't have a fan - could this affect results?

I don't want to lose training benefits by using wrong FTP but reducing to 225W when I'm finding 250W easy seems wrong. Is it worth trying the 8 min FTP test instead? I'm really enjoying the training plan but need guidance on what to use for FTP.

bobmcstuff

Well not having a fan is going to make training at higher intensities (I.e. in a test) exponentially more unpleasant/difficult than working out at lower intensities (I.e. sweetspot). But you say you tested at 245W last year? Have you changed anything?

deadlegs

bobmcstuff wrote:

Well not having a fan is going to make training at higher intensities (I.e. in a test) exponentially more unpleasant/difficult than working out at lower intensities (I.e. sweetspot). But you say you tested at 245W last year? Have you changed anything?

Ok thanks that makes sense, I have never had a fan though (always found it hot/unpleasant). I have changed house, possibly hotter.

What should I do: Test again with 8 min test/ reduce FTP to 225W / continue at 250W?

I also plan to get a fan soon.

bobmcstuff

Personally if I was completing the workouts ok (and my heart rate was in the general region I associate with sweetspot) I would just keep going with it. If the sweet spot intervals were consistently putting me into what I normally associate with threshold, then maybe I'd change - but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

You can try the 8 min test but since ftp is calculated by taking .9 of the 8 min and .95 of the 20 min you'll have to work even harder over that 8 mins to get the same ftp, which might be a tough ask if you're already having issues. I don't know how far you're getting through the 20 min test though, 8 mins might be doable.

Maybe also if you've not been using the turbo over the summer you might not be used to hard intervals indoors yet, it's a particular type of suffering I find I need to be in the right mindset for.

There's another test at the end of sweet spot base 1, maybe see how you go, get a fan and retest then.

All IMO of course.

deadlegs

bobmcstuff wrote:

You can try the 8 min test but since ftp is calculated by taking .9 of the 8 min and .95 of the 20 min you'll have to work even harder over that 8 mins to get the same ftp, which might be a tough ask if you're already having issues. I don't know how far you're getting through the 20 min test though, 8 mins might be doable.

I'm finishing the 20 min tests just a big dip in power for middle 10 mins. Maybe some of it is psychological or probably I'm just not as fit as I think!

deadlegs

I've read a load of the TR blogs today. Sounds like a smiley face power profile means I went off too hard. Not sure how I can match power I aim for by starting slower. Can someone tell me if these tests give anything away?
265W attempt_______________255W attempt

nicklong

Deadlegs wrote:

I've read a load of the TR blogs today. Sounds like a smiley face power profile means I went off too hard. Not sure how I can match power I aim for by starting slower. Can someone tell me if these tests give anything away?
265W attempt_______________255W attempt

Definitely looks like you've set out too hard. Using the 20 minutes protocol, you need to aim for the first 5 minutes to feel a bit too easy. Knock it back a couple of percent and see how you feel after 6 or 7 minutes. It's 'normal' to struggle in the 3rd quarter and that's where I'd expect your firm to fluctuate a bit but yours does seem to be going out after 6 minutes.

Try a different mental trick, aim to have your strongest quartile in the 3rd quarter. Mental strength / the thought of not having to repeat your test for another 4 weeks should get you through the 4th quartile!

deadlegs

nicklong wrote:

Definitely looks like you've set out too hard. Using the 20 minutes protocol, you need to aim for the first 5 minutes to feel a bit too easy. Knock it back a couple of percent and see how you feel after 6 or 7 minutes. It's 'normal' to struggle in the 3rd quarter and that's where I'd expect your firm to fluctuate a bit but yours does seem to be going out after 6 minutes.

Try a different mental trick, aim to have your strongest quartile in the 3rd quarter. Mental strength / the thought of not having to repeat your test for another 4 weeks should get you through the 4th quartile!

Thanks Nick that really helps, I've been aiming (unsuccessfully) to match power from start and keep it there. I will take it easier for first 1/4 next time.

If I'm not struggling with sweet spot base plan at 250W, shall I just carry on or retest first?

daniel_b

Hi dead legs,

that is quite the dip in the middle, could well be a psychological thing as you say.

I have never carried out a 20 minute FTP, and fear it I have to be honest, I have only ever done a twin 8, and get on with them very well apart from one at the beginning of this year!

A way I find to get myself through long intervals, is to split them up into smaller chunks, and carry out a mix of swapping hand positions, and alternating these with differing pedal quadrants - this kind of splits things up into smaller bits, and means I know I'm kicking over the top, and am in the drops for 90 seconds, and then I'll swap to the tops, and pull along the pedal stroke for another 90 seconds, and then maybe on the hoods, with lifting, and pushing though the pedal stroke - that helps me get through the long ones!

As I say I have never done a 20, but I plan to TT next year, so think it will be advantageous to swap across to the 20, certainly intrigued to see how I get on.

My current FTP is 229, and for that it took one of my 8 minute times, which was when I held 254 for the 8, the other was 257 - quick use of a calculator shows to hit that same FTP, I would have had to hit 241 for the full 20 minutes.
I had it in my mind they were 0.9 and 0.92, so good to realise I was wrong there!

Anyway, it looks like you could be ripe for the twin 8 test, if you regularly have that drop in the middle - this is my last one - the two downward spikes (One per block) are when I stupidly got out of the saddle to stretch the legs :oops:

barry_kellett99

Pace it better. First 5 with what you know you can hold for 20, middle 10 raising the effort. Last 5 - When will this end effort

And get the fan asap

£30 screwfix floor fan more than adequate.

If you are training in the house and not a garage/shed... you may want to make sure there has been no heating on for a day, or leave the windows/doors open for a while to try and cool the room before you suffer!

slowmart

Mightily pissed off due to a man cold and tomorrow was the beginning of SSB 2 wk 5 except I feel like crap with not much inclination to turn the pedals

So do i take this as a rest week with some endurance rides later in the week and start wk 5 a week later?

I was really looking forward to benchmarking my FTP again....

fpinela8

Tempted to give TrainerRoad a go but I don't know how to conciliate it with outdoor rides. How do you guys stick to the plan if you have 2/3 club rides a week?

sampras38

New TrainerRoad user here and really enjoying it so far. Currently working my way through Sweet Spot Base Phase and doing Mid Volume 2. Will be on Mills later today..

daniel_b

fpinela8 wrote:

Tempted to give TrainerRoad a go but I don't know how to conciliate it with outdoor rides. How do you guys stick to the plan if you have 2/3 club rides a week?

Not in a position of experience to share unfortunately, but TR seem to suggest that you merely replace x number of rides with those you have completed outside.
IF I were in your position, and was tackling a mid volume 5 rides a week plan, and had 3 outdoor rides, dependant on how hard or not, those rides were, I would likely lose the easier turbo of the week, and two others, and then just ride two on turbo.
I did ask the question of whether it was better to choose a low volume, and then add outdoor rides on top of this, but they always advise to not do this, and replace TR rides with external ones - I guess so the stress is still in the same vicinity, and that maybe the low volume rides are proportionally a higher stress factor than 3 from the mid volume courses.

sampras38 wrote:

New TrainerRoad user here and really enjoying it so far. Currently working my way through Sweet Spot Base Phase and doing Mid Volume 2. Will be on Mills later today..

Last time I carried out Mills (March) I enjoyed it a lot) but I was significantly less fit than I am now - IIRC, it's one where they ask you to keep your cadence high, but as they are nice snappy efforts, I personally found it managable - also appreciated the way the effort required starts decreasing almost as soon as you start.

Out of interest, do you just watch the bars, or do you minimise and watch cycling\tv programs?
I do the latter, well apart from when tacking an FTP, which I will be doing tomorrow morning :shock:

sampras38

I've watched all sorts over the years but I do find I can't focus as much if I'm watching something. I tend to just listen to music and follow the bars.

daniel_b

sampras38 wrote:

I've watched all sorts over the years but I do find I can't focus as much if I'm watching something. I tend to just listen to music and follow the bars.

Even if you are ERG-ing?

As an aside, just gone back to the beginning, and will restart sweet spot base, that I originally started in January.
IF factor is a lot less than build, so will be a nice little comparitive rest up until the new year.

Going to FTP in the morning, and will then carry out a couple of sessions that were from the end of my speciality course, as I have a hill climb event on Sunday - will then take a couple of days off, or more if I need to, and then get back into sweet spot base - interested to see how it is now with more fitness, and consequently harder sessions - yes I know they 'should' be the same but I ballsed up my first FTP of the year, and so had an under reading FTP for the first 6 weeks.