Who hit this place with the Ugly Stick?

sketchley

EKE_38BPM wrote:

so that its easy to get back to seeing if that girl you fancied at school is still as fit as she was and if her divorce is finalised yet.

Was she / was it?

Pictures or ......

notsoblue

EKE_38BPM wrote:

The only person who wants things to be done like this is the web developer, the users and (presumably) the BR FD would prefer things to go back to how they were.

But this link behaviour has been the standard for a number of years now. Opening in a new window/tab automatically is pretty old school and quite rare. So much so that I automatically ctrl-click now.

I can understand why the developer wouldn't want to shoehorn this in. Its a deprecated attribute and wouldn't pass a strict xHTML validation. Jeff, don't force your developer to lower his standards for these luddites... :P

EDIT: Also, this forum probably attracts loads of traffic to Bikeradar via Google, if you adhere to web standards it makes for more efficient SEO.

suzyb

Jeff Jones wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

JonGinge wrote:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but links within posts now enact in the current view rather than spawn a new tab/window as before. Bit annoying that.

Yeah, fix this!!

I prefer it but our developer disagrees (bad usability/accessibility practice). See: viewtopic.php?f=30005&t=12809703&start=60 - you can always use ctrl+click or the middle mouse button. I'm going to persist and will see if I get used to it.

It's bad for SEO though. That's why we say to heck with usability/accessibility with external links and make them open in a new window.

asprilla

Sketchley wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Or click the mouse wheel, or click both left and right button together, or right click and select open in new tab. All of them work in all browsers...... I'm with the developer on this one, standards and all that...... But then again I'm a developer too, at least when I'm not to busy doing other stuff....

I'm a product owner rather than a dev; opening links in new tabs or window is much better for users.

Agreed, question is how they go about opening links in new tabs or windows. Option 1 being forced through script, Option 2 using standard functionality.

As a user I prefer a new tab when clicking on a link, although not always. However, I prefer to do that by clicking the mouse wheel (third button equivalent) rather than having this forced in script. I don't like websites that force a new window, if you must a new tab please. Using the mouse wheel button means I have choice over new tab or click through, as a user I prefer to be in charge and have a choice. My user story read "I want to control when a open a new tab, or new windows or open in the same page when clicking on a link" this is not solved by forcing a new tab, however the user story "I want to open a new tab when clicking on a link" is solved by clicking on the link with the mouse wheel. Look to me like only one group of users get there requirement delivered if you force through a new tab through scripting.

That's because you are a highly skilled user with a very strong grasp of the technology. I, for instance, am a Mac / iPad user and so I don't have a right or a middle button. I, and most users, just want to click to open a link, but ton'd want to leave this site.

Edit: see, I just closed the site because I clicked on Ron Wrath's link in his Xmas presents thread and then closed the tab when I'd finished looking at it. It's infuriating.

Jeff Jones

lost_in_thought wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

See my edit. 'taint a matter of showing who's boss.

The argument is keeping a consistent user experience vs usability/accessibility best practice. Tricky. There's a strong argument for the former, but if we change it in favour of the latter then in time you'll get used to it (or leave) and we end up with a more accessible site.

I would see your edit if I could click the page number buttons on my phone without going to some stupid advert site.

More accessible you reckon? Explain.

Improving phone browsing is on the to do list. Major bug fixes come first (e.g. blue boxes in IE7)

As for the overall design, it is out of the box and we haven't touched it yet. Why? Because doing that on top of a forum change would have introduced a lot more bugs. When it takes a day just to move the forum data from one server to another, you need to minimise potential sources of error.

Possibilities: leave it as is, go back to something like the old BR layout, or give users a few options (e.g. new/old) that they can set via their profile.

Jeff Jones

suzyb wrote:

It's bad for SEO though. That's why we say to heck with usability/accessibility with external links and make them open in a new window.

That might win the argument... although notsoblue reckons it's good for SEO.

sketchley

Asprilla wrote:

That's because you are a highly skilled user with a very strong grasp of the technology. I, for instance, am a Mac / iPad user and so I don't have a right or a middle button. I, and most users, just want to click to open a link, but ton'd want to leave this site.

I'd actually guessed already that you must have a mac and therefore only one mouse button. Every Mac user I've every question on this says you don't need a right button you just hold down the ctrl key. Well if they can... I have to say one mouse button is pretty crap design and why should I have my functionality limited because apple limited yours by not putting enough buttons on the mouse.

As for being a "highly skilled user" well probably but again the solution is not to reduce my functionality and dumb down what I can do to fit other people, it should be for them to skill up. The more sites that conform to standards the quicker this will happen. That being said the amount of people that don't know windows short-cuts like ctrl+tab to go between tabs in the browser, or alt+tab to switch between windows, alt+f4 to close current windows, flag+e to open File Explorer, flag+d to show the desktop or cntrl+enter to add www. and .com to whatever you type in the browser. If people knew how to use the things they have better we wouldn't need this dumbing down of the user experience.

Jeff Jones

This might turn into a Mac vs PC war

Anyone use the back button anymore?

sketchley

To add to that, touch screen / phone browsing / iPad browsing is not the same thing as PC browsing so should have a different interface and different rules. Although I still like to have the choice, for example on my HTC Desire running Dolphin HD Browser if I want a new tab I hold down the link until the menu appears and select new tab or I just open the link if I don't. Having the choice is better than no choice.

sketchley

Jeff Jones wrote:

This might turn into a Mac vs PC war

Anyone use the back button anymore?

All the time, in three ways. Hitting the back arrow in the top left, hitting backspace when not on a text field, and right click on white space & select back.

EKE_38BPM

Dunno if its been mentioned yet, but having to click to go to Quick Reply, is actually slower than it used to be. If you are already logged in, why not just have Quick Reply already open so that you can just start replying, err, quickly.

In my opinion, not having links opening in new tabs will lose you users, and therefore, money.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Jeff Jones wrote:

Possibilities: leave it as is, go back to something like the old BR layout, or give users a few options (e.g. new/old) that they can set via their profile.

At last!

asprilla

Sketchley wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

That's because you are a highly skilled user with a very strong grasp of the technology. I, for instance, am a Mac / iPad user and so I don't have a right or a middle button. I, and most users, just want to click to open a link, but ton'd want to leave this site.

I'd actually guessed already that you must have a mac and therefore only one mouse button. Every Mac user I've every question on this says you don't need a right button you just hold down the ctrl key. Well if they can... I have to say one mouse button is pretty crap design and why should I have my functionality limited because apple limited yours by not putting enough buttons on the mouse.

As for being a "highly skilled user" well probably but again the solution is not to reduce my functionality and dumb down what I can do to fit other people, it should be for them to skill up. The more sites that conform to standards the quicker this will happen. That being said the amount of people that don't know windows short-cuts like ctrl+tab to go between tabs in the browser, or alt+tab to switch between windows, alt+f4 to close current windows, flag+e to open File Explorer, flag+d to show the desktop or cntrl+enter to add www. and .com to whatever you type in the browser. If people knew how to use the things they have better we wouldn't need this dumbing down of the user experience.

Limited time and effort. I'm a heavy internet user and even I don't really need to learn all the keyboard short cuts that are available. The mouse and the wysiwyg interface were such fantastic inventions because they did away with the need to use commands and instructions in order to achieve anything and opened up the world of computers to the less skilled. How about the standards conforming to meet the basic demands of limited users and allowing skilled users to perform more advanced tasks using keyboard combinations and short cuts rather than making everyone up skill?

sketchley

Please don't go back I like it.

lost_in_thought

Sketchley wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

That's because you are a highly skilled user with a very strong grasp of the technology. I, for instance, am a Mac / iPad user and so I don't have a right or a middle button. I, and most users, just want to click to open a link, but ton'd want to leave this site.

I'd actually guessed already that you must have a mac and therefore only one mouse button. Every Mac user I've every question on this says you don't need a right button you just hold down the ctrl key. Well if they can... I have to say one mouse button is pretty crap design and why should I have my functionality limited because apple limited yours by not putting enough buttons on the mouse.

As for being a "highly skilled user" well probably but again the solution is not to reduce my functionality and dumb down what I can do to fit other people, it should be for them to skill up. The more sites that conform to standards the quicker this will happen. That being said the amount of people that don't know windows short-cuts like ctrl+tab to go between tabs in the browser, or alt+tab to switch between windows, alt+f4 to close current windows, flag+e to open File Explorer, flag+d to show the desktop or cntrl+enter to add www. and .com to whatever you type in the browser. If people knew how to use the things they have better we wouldn't need this dumbing down of the user experience.

So are you one of those people who toasts bread on a fire rather than using a toaster? Because, I mean, you can. If people knew how to use fires better, we wouldn't need toasters. Or boilers. Or ovens.

I mean, really, people are idiots aren't they.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Asprilla wrote:

I'm a heavy internet user

Reminds me of the only funny line in Bowfinger

Robert K. Bowfinger: Do you have any experience in motion pictures?
Jiff Ramsey: Uh, well, yeah, quite a bit, actually, I have quite a bit of experience. I'm an active, uh, renter at Blockbuster, and I, um, attend the filmed cinema, uh, as much as possible, weekly, bi-weekly, inter-week-... intermediately.

rjsterry

Sketchley wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

That's because you are a highly skilled user with a very strong grasp of the technology. I, for instance, am a Mac / iPad user and so I don't have a right or a middle button. I, and most users, just want to click to open a link, but ton'd want to leave this site.

I'd actually guessed already that you must have a mac and therefore only one mouse button. Every Mac user I've every question on this says you don't need a right button you just hold down the ctrl key. Well if they can... I have to say one mouse button is pretty crap design and why should I have my functionality limited because apple limited yours by not putting enough buttons on the mouse.

Ahem. Macs have had more than one mouse button for years. The latest ones have a sort of 'trackpad on a mouse' affair which means you get up to four (I think) 'buttons', plus other commands operated by sweeps across the mouse with one , two, three or four fingers. Takes a bit of practice, but pretty clever once you've got the hang of it - e.g. I can go back a page in Safari with a two-fingered sweep to the left (stop sniggering).

rjsterry

lost_in_thought wrote:

I mean, really, people are idiots aren't they.

More than I ever thought possible.

sketchley

lost_in_thought wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

That's because you are a highly skilled user with a very strong grasp of the technology. I, for instance, am a Mac / iPad user and so I don't have a right or a middle button. I, and most users, just want to click to open a link, but ton'd want to leave this site.

I'd actually guessed already that you must have a mac and therefore only one mouse button. Every Mac user I've every question on this says you don't need a right button you just hold down the ctrl key. Well if they can... I have to say one mouse button is pretty crap design and why should I have my functionality limited because apple limited yours by not putting enough buttons on the mouse.

As for being a "highly skilled user" well probably but again the solution is not to reduce my functionality and dumb down what I can do to fit other people, it should be for them to skill up. The more sites that conform to standards the quicker this will happen. That being said the amount of people that don't know windows short-cuts like ctrl+tab to go between tabs in the browser, or alt+tab to switch between windows, alt+f4 to close current windows, flag+e to open File Explorer, flag+d to show the desktop or cntrl+enter to add www. and .com to whatever you type in the browser. If people knew how to use the things they have better we wouldn't need this dumbing down of the user experience.

So are you one of those people who toasts bread on a fire rather than using a toaster? Because, I mean, you can. If people knew how to use fires better, we wouldn't need toasters. Or boilers. Or ovens.

I mean, really, people are idiots aren't they.

I really don't see your point. I'd use a toaster because it's the best tool for the job. Also I don't like open fire so I cannot toast that way, but I'm not about to stop people toasting on the fire because I can only do it one way myself.

asprilla

rjsterry wrote:

Ahem. Macs have had more than one mouse button for years. The latest ones have a sort of 'trackpad on a mouse' affair which means you get up to four (I think) 'buttons', plus other commands operated by sweeps across the mouse with one , two, three or four fingers. Takes a bit of practice, but pretty clever once you've got the hang of it - e.g. I can go back a page in Safari with a two-fingered sweep to the left (stop sniggering).

I'm using an Air with the bog standard mouse. I would use the trackpad with it's gestures, but it's pushed off tot he corner of the desk as I'm using an external monitor.

sketchley

rjsterry wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

That's because you are a highly skilled user with a very strong grasp of the technology. I, for instance, am a Mac / iPad user and so I don't have a right or a middle button. I, and most users, just want to click to open a link, but ton'd want to leave this site.

I'd actually guessed already that you must have a mac and therefore only one mouse button. Every Mac user I've every question on this says you don't need a right button you just hold down the ctrl key. Well if they can... I have to say one mouse button is pretty crap design and why should I have my functionality limited because apple limited yours by not putting enough buttons on the mouse.

Ahem. Macs have had more than one mouse button for years. The latest ones have a sort of 'trackpad on a mouse' affair which means you get up to four (I think) 'buttons', plus other commands operated by sweeps across the mouse with one , two, three or four fingers. Takes a bit of practice, but pretty clever once you've got the hang of it - e.g. I can go back a page in Safari with a two-fingered sweep to the left (stop sniggering).

Excellent didn't know that. Can you open a link in new tab with single click? might solve a few problems on here

rjsterry

Currently I've got mine set up so that a right-click pulls down a mini menu at the top of which is 'Open in a New Tab' so not quite one click, but pretty straightforward. I think that's pretty straightforward to set up older 'Mighty' mice (see below) too through System Preferences.


Older Mighty Mouse

This might be useful.

lost_in_thought

Sketchley wrote:

I really don't see your point. I'd use a toaster because it's the best tool for the job. Also I don't like open fire so I cannot toast that way, but I'm not about to stop people toasting on the fire because I can only do it one way myself.

/facepalm

tailwindhome

Starting to wonder what Sharktopus makes of all this.

He can't be happy.

He may make an appearance soon.

MonkeyMonster

heh, I use a wacom tablet anyway so... yeah

as for the alert that someone else has posted while you were typing - can we make it user turnonable? I like it and use on other bb3 forums

josnor

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Yeah, Jeff, you didn't ride 700 miles in 5 hours (or some other impossible feat of cycling endurance) to have some spotty faced gimp* telling you whats what.
So, until the person who you are paying to do what you want does what you want them to do, all of the forum users will have to use the work-around

Jeff Jones wrote:

ctrl+click or the middle mouse button

instead of just clicking as usual.
Doesn't sound like progress to me.

Insulting me is really going to persuade me you're right.

A lot of people seem to be equating opening a link in a new tab to keeping people on the original site. This sounds like a reasonable conclusion at first glance, except that usability experts have demonstrated that this isn't the case. If anyone has any more recent, good quality data that refutes this, I'll happily read it. Of course, if Jeff wants to open links in new windows, that's his prerogative - he's the boss, and he may well be right! Until then, I'll be giving the advice I'm paid to give based on the research of market-leading professionals that I was paid to listen to

greg66_tri_v2.0

MonkeyMonster wrote:

heh, I use a wacom tablet anyway so... yeah

At your age, I'm surprised you need pharmacological help.

Boom boom.

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

heh, I use a wacom tablet anyway so... yeah

At your age, I'm surprised you need pharmacological help.

Boom boom.

That joke says more about you than about MM......... Discuss.

:twisted:

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

heh, I use a wacom tablet anyway so... yeah

At your age, I'm surprised you need pharmacological help.

Boom boom.

That joke says more about you than about MM......... Discuss.

:twisted:

Hey baby, everybody loves a five star hotel. But sometimes it's nice to treat yourself in a six star hotel...

CiB

Re this new tab / same tab argument; it's down to user expectation. In the context of BR (and most other fora) users expect by long term conditioning that links will open in a new tab. Not a new window, a tab. There's a difference for a start - we all have tabs now, most of us anyway. This new arrangement has forced us into a different way of what we know and presumably love as we've all been here for various numbers of years and I don't recall any 28 page threads bemoaning how links-open-a-new-tab-can-it-be-fixed-jeff-please?

Links take us out of BR to something that relates to the thread topic. Hey guys look at this <clicky to Youtube or somesuch> - we have a look, close the tab and then discuss it - the metaphorical equivalent of looking out of the window to see something, then coming back in the room to talk about it. Forcing users to lose the start point of a discussion and have to backtrack via the back button (assuming we bother to do that instead of reading the rest of The Telegraph letters page and then remember to look at El Reg and then do some work) isn't a positive thing to do.

There's a time & a place for opening a new tab or navigating direct to the new URL, and a forum favours the first option in my view. Those of you (Sketchley mainly by the sound of it) who enjoy the middle-click type option; too many devices don't have that option - Macs, fondleslabs, my iPod Touch, this k/b + mouse arrangement I'm currently using doesn't for some reason. It's not the best option. It's a workaround to get back to what we've had and liked for a long time. Can we have it back pls, the default Open In New Tab?

As for look & feel; too blue; there's just too much blue going on all around. Having a theme is one thing but blue, with added blue & blue highlights & blue fonts with a hint of errr... blue is blueming* awful. At least there's a vague idea that we might get a better look soon. I hope so.

The index & threads pages. Nice to have one-click access but it's way too cluttered and not easy to scan-read like we used to - one glance was enough to locate threads that looked interesting or that had already been visited upon. Closely grouped blue bold font on a blue background makes it that bit harder.

What's put me off most though is the sense that we've gone from having a site where we can bang on about bikes & stuff that as a sideline sticks a few ads up around the edges, to it being a site that whacks ads in yer face and as a sideline there's a forum if you want. The balance has swung from fun + ads to ads + a bit of fun if you can cope with the ads. ITV took some flak when they increased the ad minutes per hour from whatever it was to whatever it is. They went just that that bit too far. This feels the same.

Do I like it? Not much. Will I stick around? Maybe, but the change might be enough for me to lose interest here. It's happened before elsewhere. Will it make a jot of difference? I doubt it.

*