So it's all kicked off in Totenham !!!

bagpusscp

This blog makes for interesting reading.
http://beingmanly.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... -riot.html

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Next Saturday there is to be a Mrs johnfinch. Wedding's in Slovakia, so don't know if any topical jokes would go down well, unless they're about increased efficiency in car production or something equally hilarious.

Eey!

Congratulations.

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Next Saturday there is to be a Mrs johnfinch. Wedding's in Slovakia, so don't know if any topical jokes would go down well, unless they're about increased efficiency in car production or something equally hilarious.

Eey!

Congratulations.

Thanks.

Not quite sure who my wife is going to be, though - I haven't kidnapped one yet.

MattC59

I was just reading about some of the people being proscecuted for rioting and looting:

A primary school teaching assistant, students, a graphic designer, army recruits and an 11yr old boy have all been proscecuted.

The teaching assistant is said to be, by his school's web site, a mentor to young people ?!?!?!?! FFS !!!

Turns out they're not all those who feel abandoned by society. Either way, they're all scum !!!

Cleat Eastwood

MattC59 wrote:

I was just reading about some of the people being proscecuted for rioting and looting:

A primary school teaching assistant, students, a graphic designer, army recruits and an 11yr old boy have all been proscecuted.

The teaching assistant is said to be, by his school's web site, a mentor to young people ?!?!?!?! FFS !!!

Turns out they're not all those who feel abandoned by society. Either way, they're all scum !!!

And one guy up here in liverpool was arrested for looting. He went to court today and got I day in prison, however, he'd already served one day in custody so he walked straight out of court.

Tougher stuff in Manchester though the council there are going to evict families found to have been involved in the looting, even if it was a child, the whole family are to go.

And this was posted on the commuting section, I'd not seen it before, like you say given that some of those arrested are in employment this guys arguments have a hollow ring to them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4

mark63

@ mattc59, I think the 11 year old had been caught in Debenhams stealing a dustbin ??

wtf, also my daughter got a message from one of her fiends saying that kids in Gloucester were looting the pound shop, talk about high living, just where is their level of intelligence
if your going to break the law at least make it worth while.

I think they've also kicked off in Brecon you really have to ask why.

there is an e-petition looking for votes, people caught looting should have their benefits removed

Jason82

I liked the interview with the two croydon girls, they really made themselves look like a couple of idiots. "The government are trying to surpress us youngsters you know errrrr the conservatives I think." The interviewer so should of asked them how they felt that the government was surpressing them and let them carry on digging.

carl_p

mark63 wrote:

there is an e-petition looking for votes, people caught looting should have their benefits removed

Agreed, and if they're are too young to receive benefits, then there parents should lose them. Why should the rest of society foot the bill.

Liking the idea of evicting them from their council houses.

alfablue

Carl_P wrote:

Liking the idea of evicting them from their council houses.

It will cost us more as they will go to B&B. I understand the sentiment, but the tax payer could be cutting off their nose despite their face.

Alternatively, they could be evicted and left without any roof over their heads at all, that will certainly make our streets a safer place . . .

rick_chasey

Not sure the councils will be able to evict, however strong the want is.

Is unlikely to solve the problem even if they are.

alfablue

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure the councils will be able to evict, however strong the want is.

Is unlikely to solve the problem even if they are.

I agree, and witholding benefits is unlikely too, and again, would people who have their benefits stopped be likely to be more law abiding as a result? I think not.

verylonglegs

I hardly think creating more starving homeless people is going to make our streets safer. What we need to do is ship them off to an island somewhere, far away and out of sight. Oh..hang on....

mark63

my mum has just moved in to a council bungalow, set aside for old people,
now the rules clearly state apart from usual stuff like non payment of rent, any one causing or convicted of public order offences, creating a disturbance or basically being a pain in the backside will be kicked out.
not sure if thats in the tenancy agreement of all councils, but if it is it would appear that the petition is not required and the ball is already in the local authorities hands as far as that side of things are concerned.
but like you say with 1200 arrests so far and rising there could be a sudden surge in the requirement for B&B's and of course not all the rioters are council tenants.

random man

If you evict people from a sink estate, where else is there for them to live? Council's have a responsibility to house families, so I don't understand the reasoning behind this argument.
Withholding benefits until they have carried out community service may be a way forward though.

Martincan

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

I was just reading about some of the people being proscecuted for rioting and looting:

A primary school teaching assistant, students, a graphic designer, army recruits and an 11yr old boy have all been proscecuted.

The teaching assistant is said to be, by his school's web site, a mentor to young people ?!?!?!?! FFS !!!

Turns out they're not all those who feel abandoned by society. Either way, they're all scum !!!

And one guy up here in liverpool was arrested for looting. He went to court today and got I day in prison, however, he'd already served one day in custody so he walked straight out of court.

Tougher stuff in Manchester though the council there are going to evict families found to have been involved in the looting, even if it was a child, the whole family are to go.

And this was posted on the commuting section, I'd not seen it before, like you say given that some of those arrested are in employment this guys arguments have a hollow ring to them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4

Children/teenagers only have 'no future' if they don't try to get one.

There was an interview on TV last night with a man who was brought up in Peckham and managed to get himself into Oxford University. People just seem to assume that if they're from a particular area, they have no chance. The younger people that think this are not even close to trying to make a career for themselfs or achieve a level of success.

carl_p

Possibly evicting "families" might not be a great idea, but some Councils do have the power to do that if they wish.

The website hosting the e petition concerning withholding benefits has crashed due to the number of hits. If at least 100,000 sign it the Government are forced to at least debate it in Parliament. What with all the cuts this year and society footing a considerably higher tax bill it will be very interesting how Cameron deals with this. Luckily for him we're still a long way from the next election so might not be that crucial for him?

inkyfingers

There lies the problem, it's so easy to blame anybody else but yourself for your lack of success. My fiancee grew up on a pretty rough council estate to parents who both had very low paid jobs and went to a really poor school, but despite that she studied her way through, went to college, then on to university and is now a successful graphic designer earning a pretty good salary. She got no money from her parents and worked all though university and avoided spending all her money of booze (which I have to admit is what I did at uni).

There are opportunities out there, you just have to get off your backside and grasp them. Sure it's harder now than it was to find a great job, but it's not impossible, the cream rises to the top. I run a small business and even though our margins have got squeezed in the last couple of years i've managed to compensate by working harder and finding more customers. I'm never going to be able to retire in the Carribean but I can pay my mortgage, buy a nice bike occassionally and most importantly if the weather is nice I can let myself leave early and go cycling!

morstar

Martincan wrote:

Children/teenagers only have 'no future' if they don't try to get one.

There was an interview on TV last night with a man who was brought up in Peckham and managed to get himself into Oxford University. People just seem to assume that if they're from a particular area, they have no chance. The younger people that think this are not even close to trying to make a career for themselfs or achieve a level of success.

There are always stories about the 100 year old who smokes 40 a day, the fitness freak who dies young of a heart attack, the rich kid who goes off the rails and the poor kid who flies high...

Whilst interesting tales of what can be... they are generally not representative and do very little to support any argument if taken in context.

Let's at least make the assumption that the poverty trap is not a doddle to escape otherwise more would be doing it.

To me the violence is inexcusable and the looting is out and out self serving greed and opportunism. That said, I have a firm belief that it has only gained momentum because a significant minority genuinely are dis-enfranchised. If we just ignore this fact then all the rhetoric in the world will do no good at all and it'll just happen again at some point in the future.

Personally, I think one of the fundamental causes is our academic only education system. Many of these young males know nothing of schooling other than failure on a daily basis because the curriculum is not geared up to practical subjects. Is it any wonder they disengage?

mark63

not condoning the council evicting tenants just saying that is what council tenants risk by taking part in these riots, regardless of petitions or what some of us may think or say.
as far as practical schooling goes I thought that went out the window shortly after I left school at the end of the 70's along with apprenticeships.
But there again who would want to do a full days work for half a days pay when you could sit on your backside and sign on once a week and get your community charge & rent paid

Cleat Eastwood

morstar wrote:

Martincan wrote:

To me the violence is inexcusable and the looting is out and out self serving greed and opportunism. That said, I have a firm belief that it has only gained momentum because a significant minority genuinely are dis-enfranchised. If we just ignore this fact then all the rhetoric in the world will do no good at all and it'll just happen again at some point in the future.

Personally, I think one of the fundamental causes is our academic only education system. Many of these young males know nothing of schooling other than failure on a daily basis because the curriculum is not geared up to practical subjects. Is it any wonder they disengage?

It is totally inexcusable I agree and while I don't think think disenfranchisement can be used as an excuse (there have been far too many people from similar or worse backgrounds have escaped unfortunate circumstances) I do think there needs to be a focus on cultural influence and definition, particularly black culture (given that the majority of violence occured in areas with strong black populations).

When I was growing up black culture (that is indigenous black british culture) meant bands like misty in roots, steel pulse, and poets like lynton kwesi johnson who offered 'culture' with a high degree of social comment, that is to say there was a ready outlet for pent up social frustrations.

Now I know that styles of urban black music aren't necessarily aimed at me but it does strike me that for black british culture you could easily substitute black american culture which is heavily based around 'gangsterism', easy money and a free living lifestyle.

Trevor Phillips made an interesting comment a few years ago ago the black and white working class having too much in common to fight, and even espoused the black and white working class to strengthen those cultural bonds. I just think that it's difficult for a social class to engage in meaningful dialogue when the grammar and syntax for the dialogue is being set effectively by a culture to which neither white, black, british or otherwise have any real connection.

Ultimately if you build a society that follows a model that commodifies the individual we shouldn't be too surprised when the individuals strives to assert themselves.

I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is I blame Musical Youth.

Fenred

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is I blame Musical Youth.

Why? all they did was pass the dutchie... :? :shock:

15peter20

morstar wrote:

Martincan wrote:

Children/teenagers only have 'no future' if they don't try to get one.

There was an interview on TV last night with a man who was brought up in Peckham and managed to get himself into Oxford University. People just seem to assume that if they're from a particular area, they have no chance. The younger people that think this are not even close to trying to make a career for themselfs or achieve a level of success.

There are always stories about the 100 year old who smokes 40 a day, the fitness freak who dies young of a heart attack, the rich kid who goes off the rails and the poor kid who flies high...

Whilst interesting tales of what can be... they are generally not representative and do very little to support any argument if taken in context.

Let's at least make the assumption that the poverty trap is not a doddle to escape otherwise more would be doing it.

To me the violence is inexcusable and the looting is out and out self serving greed and opportunism. That said, I have a firm belief that it has only gained momentum because a significant minority genuinely are dis-enfranchised. If we just ignore this fact then all the rhetoric in the world will do no good at all and it'll just happen again at some point in the future.

Personally, I think one of the fundamental causes is our academic only education system. Many of these young males know nothing of schooling other than failure on a daily basis because the curriculum is not geared up to practical subjects. Is it any wonder they disengage?

What a lot of good sense spoken here amidst a thread of largely reactionary, knee jerk guff and bluster.