So it's all kicked off in Totenham !!!

MattC59

Sorry, not a football reference Stewie !!

So, Police shoot a man dead for pulling a firearm on police (I won't mention the fact that a bullet was found lodged in a police radio.... oops). Peaceful protests then follow, as residents "want justice" for the family !?!?!?! The protests develope into full blown riots and Tottenham now resembles a war zone.

My view; exactly what justice do these peaceful protesters want, and what do they expect will happen if you shoot at a policeman ?

Discuss.

rick_chasey

Presumably it's about more than the shooting. I'd imagine it's become a catalyst for local anger at the police.

Some guy on the TV just now was claiming that the peaceful protest kicked off when the police started hitting some woman, but that's obviously not confirmed.

I'm reasonably familiar with the Watts riots and '92 riots in LA, and they both stemmed from systemic police discrimination and violence, and kicked off, albet on a bigger scale, in the same way to this one.

Public get angry about particular case which embodies all the grievences they have - police respond a little heavy handed since the anger is aimed at them - one tiny little incident sparks it off.

balthazar

From a comment here (by "vic15"):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/ ... uggan-live

"There are a lot of very good people here. The looting wasn't a part of the demonstration. People came from all over London to 'join in' and the community I live in has been ruined.
Now, beyond the anger, I'm sad, desperately sad.
This wasn't just about a policing, this was about mindless violence and aggression by disaffected and alienated youth and not just in Tottenham.
Meanwhile the people I know, the shops I visit, my neighbours have had their lives ripped apart and the community which is wracked by poverty and joblessness is further labeled and further disadvantaged.
I don't want people to think that Tottenham is a hopeless place. It is my home and my community and I love living here but I really truly despise people who have destroyed it."

uphillstruggle

Agree completely- just been listening to people blaming the police for their actions as they out numbered the gunman four to one and should have known that he wasn't the type of guy to do harm etc etc etc.

How the hell were they suppose to make that split second assessment- they were under attack from a gunman for god's sake.

Why don't those supposedly seeking justice and aportioning blame ask the simple question- why was this individual in possession of a gun and shooting at the police?

I know this country is knackered but at the risk of upsetting do gooders everywhere I know who I think was at fault and the actions of those PROTECTING the public seem entirely reasonable to me.

inkyfingers

I'm afraid this just sounds like a lot of yobs trying to justify shocking behaviour. The wooly liberals dressing this up as a rightful protest against police brutality are pathetic, the police shot a man who pulled a gun on them, any death is sad but he was asking for it. What were the police supposed to do, ask him politely to stop and offer to buy him an ice cream?

Alinshearah

Do you know those mornings when you wake up dreading going into work?

Well I own a TV shop on Tottenham high street

rick_chasey

Don't think anyone is saying that looting and rioting is justified.

I think some people are looking at the underlying causes. Can't think of a single riot that has occured just because people fancy a bit of violence and looting.

Alin - good luck with that....

redddraggon

If people have issues with Police Brutality in this country perhaps they should go live elsewhere, like the US. Our Police have been made soft by all the handicaps that politicians have put in front of them.

freehub

Just show what scum is around.

If someone gets shot in my village maybe I should go protest it by looting the fish shop and setting the pub on fire?

KarynPebs

Alinshearah wrote:

Do you know those mornings when you wake up dreading going into work?

Well I own a TV shop on Tottenham high street

I hope things aren't as bad as you fear.
Police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I hope those in hospital mend quickly.

rick_chasey

The local MP's claiming people from elsewhere looking for trouble made their way over when they heard there was a protest to really kick things off.

MP was also disappointed with the police response - he was suggesting that the police might have turned up with more numbers earlier before it really got going.

Smokin Joe

Rick Chasey wrote:

Don't think anyone is saying that looting and rioting is justified.

I think some people are looking at the underlying causes. Can't think of a single riot that has occured just because people fancy a bit of violence and looting.

Alin - good luck with that....

I can think of hundreds, they were a regular feature in and around football grounds for decades. Face it, whatever excuses are being made for these people the rioters hijacked the original protest because they fancied a bit of violence and a chance to loot the shops.

Gazzaputt

Why the hell didn't let water cannons, tear gas and rubber bullets on them?

Total disregard for life by these scum and should have dealt with harshly and swiftly. Horses? Surprised the poor things weren't knifed.

I thought the Police response way to soft and that let order break down.

WisePranker

Rick Chasey wrote:

MP was also disappointed with the police response - he was suggesting that the police might have turned up with more numbers earlier before it really got going.

The MP is acting like a bit of a tit. He seems to be blaming everything on the Police and forgetting that the guy who was killed shot a Police Officer first! As for his comments about the Police response, if they'd have had more numbers earlier on the MP and the community would have been complaining about them over Policing a peaceful protest! They can't win.
Tottenham has, in my opinion, a huge number of scum bags, drug dealers and wannabe gangsters kicking about but the 'communtity' always protect them when they know they're doing wrong. The community there are as much to blame as anyone for letting the area get to the state it was in before last night and for last nights troubles.

I was stuck working on an ambulance Tottenham last night and it wasn't a particularly nice place to be! No doubt I'll be back there tonight when it kicks off again!

Cleat Eastwood

I'd just leave the place as it is from now on. If people who live there want to destroy the shops they use, the goods they buy, the livelihoods of their community members they befriend, and raise their kids in a sh1thole let them carry on. Violence is never an excuse for anything, not even lack of stock at Aldi.

rick_chasey

WisePranker wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

MP was also disappointed with the police response - he was suggesting that the police might have turned up with more numbers earlier before it really got going.

The MP is acting like a bit of a tit. He seems to be blaming everything on the Police and forgetting that the guy who was killed shot a Police Officer first! As for his comments about the Police response, if they'd have had more numbers earlier on the MP and the community would have been complaining about them over Policing a peaceful protest!

The MP wasn't mentioning the police response to the shooting. That happened on Thursday.

He was saying that there were a few pockets of disorder, which, had they been dealt with, wouldn't have escalated.

verylonglegs

Rick Chasey wrote:

The local MP's claiming people from elsewhere looking for trouble made their way over when they heard there was a protest to really kick things off.

I'd love to know how he can state this with any confidence so soon after the events.

Taken from another forum..

"To be fair to the people of Tottenham, some of them were SO upset at the killing of the man that they had to run to the nearest Comet to steal a brand new widescreen 3D television, complete with new pair of trainers from the sports shop next door.

One cannot imagine the grief which would force people to this."

Admittedly it is hard for me to get my mind around what went on as I live in rural Norfolk, a world away from such events but it is hard to see what ruining the lives of local shopkeepers is supposed to achieve. I heard an interview with someone on the radio this morning who was outside the police station for the initial protest yesterday, they were disappointed no-one came outside to address them but the question is would they have believed whatever they were told anyway?

fast as fupp

uphillstruggle wrote:

Agree completely- just been listening to people blaming the police for their actions as they out numbered the gunman four to one and should have known that he wasn't the type of guy to do harm etc etc etc.

How the hell were they suppose to make that split second assessment- they were under attack from a gunman for god's sake.

Why don't those supposedly seeking justice and aportioning blame ask the simple question- why was this individual in possession of a gun and shooting at the police?

I know this country is knackered but at the risk of upsetting do gooders everywhere I know who I think was at fault and the actions of those PROTECTING the public seem entirely reasonable to me.

aye- after all the met have such a good record when it comes to shooting folk!

Vino2007

Similar to the Ardoyne riots in Northern Ireland every single year. Police have to just stand and take it as the hoods launch metal spiked poles at them and breezeblocks from rooftops. You can't reason with scum, the only way to get through to them is to put a bit of fear into them with a good beating.

Stewie Griffin

Pub to ground back to pub then home for a reason.

Frank the tank

There are obviously issues in Tottenham (not least having a crap football team, Stewie ) It serves no-ones real interest in vandalising/looting their own neighbourhood, no matter what their frustrations.

No doubt we've all felt frustrated by all manner of things at various times, but rioting and looting achieves nowt other than it costs us all to put things right.

Ben6899

Stewie Griffin wrote:

Pub to ground back to pub then home for a reason.

A Spurs fan with his head in the sand. For a change.





And for the record; that's a joke.

Cleat Eastwood

Ben6899 wrote:

Stewie Griffin wrote:

Pub to ground back to pub then home for a reason.

A Spurs fan with his head in the sand. For a change.





And for the record; spurs are a joke.

There ya go, fixed that one for ya.

rc856

Feel for the local shopkeepers etc.
The usual comments that you would expect. Yes, it's bad that someone was killed but if you're holding a firearm and move it/raise it in an action perceived to be threatening, you're going to get shot.
Police aim for centre body mass so you're not going to have the gun shot out of your hand either!!

MattC59

RC856 wrote:

Feel for the local shopkeepers etc.
The usual comments that you would expect. Yes, it's bad that someone was killed but if you're holding a firearm and move it/raise it in an action perceived to be threatening, you're going to get shot.
Police aim for centre body mass so you're not going to have the gun shot out of your hand either!!

Precicely !!

There was a case some years ago where a Country and Western nut had barricaded himself into his house and had been seen waving firearms about. Armed police were called, the guy was asked to lay them down and come out. He didn't. There was a lot more posturing, and he finally came out, aiming a firearm at police. Guess what, he was shot. It turned out that the weapon was a replica, but the police didn't know this and his behaviour was threatening. Lo and behold, there was uproar and the doo gooders wanted the police to be held accountable.

Bottom line, if you're stupid enough to point a weapon, real or replica at armed police, you're asking to get shot.

Martincan

MattC59 wrote:

RC856 wrote:

Feel for the local shopkeepers etc.
The usual comments that you would expect. Yes, it's bad that someone was killed but if you're holding a firearm and move it/raise it in an action perceived to be threatening, you're going to get shot.
Police aim for centre body mass so you're not going to have the gun shot out of your hand either!!

Precicely !!

There was a case some years ago where a Country and Western nut had barricaded himself into his house and had been seen waving firearms about. Armed police were called, the guy was asked to lay them down and come out. He didn't. There was a lot more posturing, and he finally came out, aiming a firearm at police. Guess what, he was shot. It turned out that the weapon was a replica, but the police didn't know this and his behaviour was threatening. Lo and behold, there was uproar and the doo gooders wanted the police to be held accountable.

Bottom line, if you're stupid enough to point a weapon, real or replica at armed police, you're asking to get shot.

Totally agree. Family/friends of this person fighting for justice becasue the police 'should of known that the gun man was actually harmless' are living in a dream world.

MattC59

Martincan wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

RC856 wrote:

Feel for the local shopkeepers etc.
The usual comments that you would expect. Yes, it's bad that someone was killed but if you're holding a firearm and move it/raise it in an action perceived to be threatening, you're going to get shot.
Police aim for centre body mass so you're not going to have the gun shot out of your hand either!!

Precicely !!

There was a case some years ago where a Country and Western nut had barricaded himself into his house and had been seen waving firearms about. Armed police were called, the guy was asked to lay them down and come out. He didn't. There was a lot more posturing, and he finally came out, aiming a firearm at police. Guess what, he was shot. It turned out that the weapon was a replica, but the police didn't know this and his behaviour was threatening. Lo and behold, there was uproar and the doo gooders wanted the police to be held accountable.

Bottom line, if you're stupid enough to point a weapon, real or replica at armed police, you're asking to get shot.

Totally agree. Family/friends of this person fighting for justice becasue the police 'should have known that the gun man was actually harmless' are living in a dream world.

Yep, but unfortunately, the friends and family were wrong. Simply by having an illegal firearm, makes him anything but harmless. Proved by the fact that he shot one of the policemen.

Martincan

MattC59 wrote:

Martincan wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

RC856 wrote:

Feel for the local shopkeepers etc.
The usual comments that you would expect. Yes, it's bad that someone was killed but if you're holding a firearm and move it/raise it in an action perceived to be threatening, you're going to get shot.
Police aim for centre body mass so you're not going to have the gun shot out of your hand either!!

Precicely !!

There was a case some years ago where a Country and Western nut had barricaded himself into his house and had been seen waving firearms about. Armed police were called, the guy was asked to lay them down and come out. He didn't. There was a lot more posturing, and he finally came out, aiming a firearm at police. Guess what, he was shot. It turned out that the weapon was a replica, but the police didn't know this and his behaviour was threatening. Lo and behold, there was uproar and the doo gooders wanted the police to be held accountable.

Bottom line, if you're stupid enough to point a weapon, real or replica at armed police, you're asking to get shot.

Totally agree. Family/friends of this person fighting for justice becasue the police 'should have known that the gun man was actually harmless' are living in a dream world.

Yep, but unfortunately, the friends and family were wrong. Simply by having an illegal firearm, makes him anything but harmless. Proved by the fact that he shot one of the policemen.

'Tis true. The only reason you would bring an illegal firearm into public, is to cause a threat, and especially when that threat goes from notional to physical, the police are going to do something about it. Simple as that.

waltho bum gravy

how do i report something to the admin? i seem to have redirected to the daily mail's webshite.

MattC59

waltho bum gravy wrote:

how do i report something to the admin? i seem to have redirected to the daily mail's webshite.

Why do you say that ?

The individual concerned had an illegal firearm. By all accounts, he was told to stop what he was doing, but he drew the gun. As a result he was shot. Simple. What's Daily Mail-ish about agreeing that he can't expect anything else ?

Would you have prefered that the police offered him a selection of organic vegetables, in an attempt to illustrate the finer aspects of life ?

If you're going to make comments like that, can I suggest that you offer something to support your view ? Otherwise, you're just a bit of an irritating tit !

dilemna

The army should have been deployed. Rioters and looters should have been shot. This is what happened to any one caught looting during the Blitz.

Oh, we don't have an army any longer.

Looted goods soon to be found on Ebay or Gumtree.