So it's all kicked off in Totenham !!!

waltho bum gravy

oh dear. :facepalm:

dilemna

MattC59 wrote:

waltho bum gravy wrote:

how do i report something to the admin? i seem to have redirected to the daily mail's webshite.

Why do you say that ?

The individual concerned had an illegal firearm. By all accounts, he was told to stop what he was doing, but he drew the gun. As a result he was shot. Simple. What's Daily Mail-ish about agreeing that he can't expect anything else ?

Would you have prefered that the police offered him a selection of organic vegetables, in an attempt to illustrate the finer aspects of life ?

If you're going to make comments like that, can I suggest that you offer something to support your view ? Otherwise, you're just a bit of an irritating tit !

The content of his post in given away by his name waltho bum gravy.

dilemna

waltho bum gravy wrote:

oh dear. :facepalm:

Are you a looter, a rioter, both or a feral 11 year old yoof?

MattC59

waltho bum gravy wrote:

oh dear. :facepalm:

Admittedly, Dilemnas comment has only served to reinforce your comment, but then they're not often worth the energy required to read them, but you still haven't offered anything in support of your original comment.

dilemna

MattC59 wrote:

waltho bum gravy wrote:

oh dear. :facepalm:

Admittedly, Dilemnas comment has only served to reinforce your comment, but then they're not often worth the energy required to read them, but you still haven't offered anything in support of your original comment.

Ehhh???? You are no different to WBG.

waltho bum gravy

i think we all know that the real trigger for the unrest in some parts of london over the weekend had very little to do with the shooting of mark duggan. it does obviously help a certain type of view to focus on this and ask such insightful and far reaching questions as "what exactly do these peaceful protestors want?'

the looting/rioting reported across some parts of london have to be condemned but the huge social problems in places like tottenham cannot be overlooked when trying to ensure similar events don't happen again and again. the 'send in the army' or 'this wouldn't happen in my village or i'd burn down the fish and chip shop' is pathetically inadequate to the degree of burying your head in the sand.

in my view. there again i'm just an irritating tit.

waltho bum gravy

dilemna wrote:

waltho bum gravy wrote:

oh dear. :facepalm:

Are you a looter, a rioter, both or a feral 11 year old yoof?

i'm a 40 year old man that lived and worked in tottenham for years before finally being able to get my sorry arse out of there. what connection to the area do you have?

dilemna

waltho bum gravy wrote:

dilemna wrote:

waltho bum gravy wrote:

oh dear. :facepalm:

Are you a looter, a rioter, both or a feral 11 year old yoof?

i'm a 40 year old man that lived and worked in tottenham for years before finally being able to get my sorry ars* out of there. what connection to the area do you have?

Kinda defeats your argument admitting the place is a dive.

No connection to the area except unfortunately mistakenly driving through the area once or twice during my life. Central locking on, don't stop.

waltho bum gravy

[/quote]

Kinda defeats your argument admitting the place is a dive.
[/quote]

no it doesn't. all it really serves to prove is that you didn't understand the point i was trying to make, which didn't come as a great surprise.

lifeform

Well, if nothing else, there now follows several days of the media tying itself in knots with liberalist wailing about deprived inner-city areas with Police victimisation, generational unemployment, and near-useless education system.

Of course, nobody would dare to question what, exactly, these areas are deprived of when they have access to the same basic services as the rest of us. Or why the Police might pay closer attention to black youths dressing and acting like gang members than they would anyone else. Or why the Education system is almost pointless is some boroughs. Nor indeed why these kids are incapable of getting a job once they've finished not bothering with School. Nope, it's never anything to do with the environment these budding footballers create for themselves - it's all a middle-class conspiracy.

What would be nice, for a change, is for someone in the political arena to stand up and counter the inevitable race card when it's played in the next couple of days by a reactionary spacker like Diane Abbott and say "I'm sorry, it's nothing to do with being a black kid from the mean streets of Tottenham... it's to do with being a bunch of fucking idiots"

Having lived in Tottenham for three years, the thing which bemuses me most about this situation is that when this sort of stuff happens, it's always 'the system' which has failed the community, yet when one of these kids does manage to avoid the crime, the drugs, the unemployment, it's always the community which has put them there - often with scant regard for the ability or motivation of the kid in question.

If the looters were from 'outside the area' then why, I wonder, didn't the Tottenham gangs protect their manor from these other gangs so they don't have to travel off-turf to buy their carpet and trainers? Or do I misunderstand what gangs are about these days?

waltho bum gravy

lifeform wrote:

Of course, nobody would dare to question what, exactly, these areas are deprived of when they have access to the same basic services as the rest of us.

like i said. head in the sand.

waltho bum gravy

otherwise a decent post. i can't really be arsed to spend my time on this though. perhaps i should have just kept my views to myself.

MattC59

lifeform wrote:

Well, if nothing else, there now follows several days of the media tying itself in knots with liberalist wailing about deprived inner-city areas with Police victimisation, generational unemployment, and near-useless education system.

Of course, nobody would dare to question what, exactly, these areas are deprived of when they have access to the same basic services as the rest of us. Or why the Police might pay closer attention to black youths dressing and acting like gang members than they would anyone else. Or why the Education system is almost pointless is some boroughs. Nor indeed why these kids are incapable of getting a job once they've finished not bothering with School. Nope, it's never anything to do with the environment these budding footballers create for themselves - it's all a middle-class conspiracy.

What would be nice, for a change, is for someone in the political arena to stand up and counter the inevitable race card when it's played in the next couple of days by a reactionary spacker like Diane Abbott and say "I'm sorry, it's nothing to do with being a black kid from the mean streets of Tottenham... it's to do with being a bunch of ******* idiots"

Having lived in Tottenham for three years, the thing which bemuses me most about this situation is that when this sort of stuff happens, it's always 'the system' which has failed the community, yet when one of these kids does manage to avoid the crime, the drugs, the unemployment, it's always the community which has put them there - often with scant regard for the ability or motivation of the kid in question.

If the looters were from 'outside the area' then why, I wonder, didn't the Tottenham gangs protect their manor from these other gangs so they don't have to travel off-turf to buy their carpet and trainers? Or do I misunderstand what gangs are about these days?

Well put !

MattC59

dilemna wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

waltho bum gravy wrote:

oh dear. :facepalm:

Admittedly, Dilemnas comment has only served to reinforce your comment, but then they're not often worth the energy required to read them, but you still haven't offered anything in support of your original comment.

Ehhh???? You are no different to WBG.

Well, your comment about rioters and looters "should be shot" is somewhat Daily Heil !
I agree that there should be zero tollerance, but there are far better solutions than just shooting looters.

verylonglegs

waltho bum gravy wrote:

otherwise a decent post. i can't really be arsed to spend my time on this though. perhaps i should have just kept my views to myself.

Well you haven't really offered a solution either to be fair.

waltho bum gravy

verylonglegs wrote:

waltho bum gravy wrote:

otherwise a decent post. i can't really be arsed to spend my time on this though. perhaps i should have just kept my views to myself.

Well you haven't really offered a solution either to be fair.

although, if we're going to be fair, i have never claimed to have one. unlike those advocating shooting rioters or calling the army in. i think it's a complex problem. unlike those who see a one size fits all remedy as outlined above.

inkyfingers

Predictably a lot of the media talking about this being due to unemployment etc in the area. That would make sense if Tottenham was an isolated community, but you only have to go 20 minutes on a tube or a bus before you are into the heart of one of the biggest and most wealthy city centres in the world. I'm sorry to say that a large number of these people are unemployed by choice or are simply unemployable, you can't look at unemployment figures for one area of London in isolation.

dreamlx10

there are far better solutions than just shooting looters

None of them as much fun though !

Vino2007

Biting the hand that feeds!

tarquin_foxglove

MattC59 wrote:

Simply by having an illegal firearm, makes him anything but harmless. Proved by the fact that he shot one of the policemen.

Even in the Daily Mail questions are being raised over who actually fired that shot..

tarquin_foxglove

dilemna wrote:

The army should have been deployed. Rioters and looters should have been shot. This is what happened to any one caught looting during the Blitz.

Are we at war?

rick_chasey

Seems to be a big question mark over whether the actual rioting is to do with the shooting, rather than a peaceful protest being hijacked.

The latter seems to be the more popular argument at the moment, given the copy-cat style riots across London that seem to not have anything to do with the shooting on Thursday.

The Guardian's reporting that the bullet found in the police radio was likely to be police issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/0 ... cond-night

The Guardian has reported that initial tests suggest a bullet found lodged in a police radio after Duggan's death was police issue. The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which has launched an inquiry into the shooting, said it would not comment until all ballistics and forensic tests were complete.

In which case, to spuriously speculate, it sounds like the guy who was shot didn't shoot at the police.

inkyfingers

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Simply by having an illegal firearm, makes him anything but harmless. Proved by the fact that he shot one of the policemen.

Even in the Daily Mail questions are being raised over who actually fired that shot..

If he had a firearm and the police felt he was a genuine threat to their own safety then surely they are still justified in shooting him? He was no Jean Charles de Menezes, he wasn't some innocent bystander who happened to get shot.

MattC59

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Simply by having an illegal firearm, makes him anything but harmless. Proved by the fact that he shot one of the policemen.

Even in the Daily Mail questions are being raised over who actually fired that shot..

Yep, and you'll note that I wrote that yesterday, before the information came out that the bullet in the police radio may be police issue.

It still doesn't detract from the fact that he was illegally armed in public. If you're armed, a percieved threat and confronted by police, you're likely to be shot.

jim453

Rick Chasey wrote:

Seems to be a big question mark over whether the actual rioting is to do with the shooting, rather than a peaceful protest being hijacked.

The latter seems to be the more popular argument at the moment, given the copy-cat style riots across London that seem to not have anything to do with the shooting on Thursday.

The Guardian's reporting that the bullet found in the police radio was likely to be police issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/0 ... cond-night

The Guardian has reported that initial tests suggest a bullet found lodged in a police radio after Duggan's death was police issue. The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which has launched an inquiry into the shooting, said it would not comment until all ballistics and forensic tests were complete.

In which case, to spuriously speculate, it sounds like the guy who was shot didn't shoot at the police.

On the contrary Rick it seems obvious to me that the guy involved killed a policeman, stole his gun and then turned it upon the rest of the constabulary.

Let's get a mob together quick.

etc etc

tarquin_foxglove

MattC59 wrote:

If you're armed, a percieved threat and confronted by police, you're likely to be shot.

Absolutely but you'd expect a highly trained armed response police officer not to perceive an armed colleague as a threat and shoot them though.

MattC59

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

If you're armed, a percieved threat and confronted by police, you're likely to be shot.

Absolutely but you'd expect a highly trained armed response police officer not to perceive an armed colleague as a threat and shoot them though.

In an enclosed environment, it could easily have been a ricochet.

Pross

waltho bum gravy wrote:

i think we all know that the real trigger for the unrest in some parts of london over the weekend had very little to do with the shooting of mark duggan. it does obviously help a certain type of view to focus on this and ask such insightful and far reaching questions as "what exactly do these peaceful protestors want?'

the looting/rioting reported across some parts of london have to be condemned but the huge social problems in places like tottenham cannot be overlooked when trying to ensure similar events don't happen again and again. the 'send in the army' or 'this wouldn't happen in my village or i'd burn down the fish and chip shop' is pathetically inadequate to the degree of burying your head in the sand.

in my view. there again i'm just an irritating tit.

The site creators here are really having a nightmare, in trying to fix this thread linking to the Mail website they seem to have now inadvertently linked it to the Guardian!

Pross

The police really are damned if they do and damned if they don't. On the back of criticism over heavy handed tactics at the student demos and G8 they are now getting criticised my the media for being too soft in their early responses at Tottenham. Add to that the mayor and PM getting criticised for being on holiday (in the middle of the main holiday season) as if they could somehow have predicted these events. Surely even politicians deserve a break at some point and no-one knows when the next crisis is going to occur.

OffTheBackAdam

Richard North on the EU Referendum blog has a few interesting observations about this.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/