Favourite current Pro

Turfle

celbianchi wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

That doesn't mean their support is racist, xenophobic or patriotic; You have no idea why somone supports one team over another, yet you are presumptuous enough to suggest you do.

What I am really saying here is that there is no logical reason for an overwhelming majority of people to form an allegiance with a team or individual that shares their birthplace. Given that the vast majority of Englishmen and women will support England at whatever the sport is, I think intersting, they have in 99% of the population no closer link with the English team or individual than the opponent other than being born on the same island.
I'm not saying it's wrong, just illogical to my thought process.

No, what is illogical would be me, as someone who is English/Welsh, supporting a Spanish or French team above them.

I agree that what your saying describes the norm, but why? Only common link being birthplace? What causes the emotional bond?

A shared cultural experience goes a long way.

celbianchi

RichN95 wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

No, what is illogical would be me, as someone who is English/Welsh, supporting a Spanish or French team above them.

No, what is illogical is to care what someone else does. A person can support whoever they like regardless of who they are or where they are from. Any other view is retarded and neanderthal.

I agree. Support whoever you like* (although I find it strange against your own country in a team sport). But I object to being told that it's somehow wrong to favour British riders.


*Unless you're like a guy in a pub during the last World Cup who loudly proclaimed to his friends what a big Spain fan was due to their 'artistry'. He then asked why Messi wasn't playing.

i don't think it has been implied it is wrong to favour a British rider, and my case against is simply it seems odd to me that sharing the birthplace might 'trump' other reasons. I might deem I have more in common with a foreign rider owing to their racing style but I think it is a common human trait to root for the fellow countryman.
I used to admire Wasim Akram when he was bowling for Lancashire but when I maintained this fondness when he kept skittling Graham Hick in a summer test series one of my mates could not understand not having a ingrained love of England.

TMR

RichN95 wrote:

But I object to being told that it's somehow wrong to favour British riders.

That is wrong. Live and let live.

ratsbeyfus

celbianchi wrote:

i don't think it has been implied it is wrong to favour a British rider, and my case against is simply it seems odd to me that sharing the birthplace might 'trump' other reasons.

Yes, you have implied this by saying:

But to simply root for someone because they are British is a pretty ridiculous state of affairs.

Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

And as for this:

celbianchi wrote:

I used to admire Wasim Akram when he was bowling for Lancashire but when I maintained this fondness when he kept skittling Graham Hick in a summer test series one of my mates could not understand not having a ingrained love of England.

Your mate sounds like a nobber - Hick was born in Zimbabwe, and is cockney rhyming slang for a winky

celbianchi

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Yes, you have implied this by saying:

celbianchi wrote:

But to simply root for someone because they are British is a pretty ridiculous state of affairs.
Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

What I meant here is to root for someone simply because they are British (and there are plenty who would) is alien to me. And people would argue that one should support one's countrymen

ratsbeyfus wrote:

And as for this:

celbianchi wrote:

I used to admire Wasim Akram when he was bowling for Lancashire but when I maintained this fondness when he kept skittling Graham Hick in a summer test series one of my mates could not understand not having a ingrained love of England.

Your mate sounds like a nobber - Hick was born in Zimbabwe, and is cockney rhyming slang for a winky

See above explanation

paulcuthbert

celbianchi wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

2 differences. Pretty sure tennis not a year-round sport, whereas cycling is more that. And having one Briton at 4th best in the world at one sport (lagging well behind 1st, 2nd and 3rd it must be said!) is not the same as having the 3 of best in the world at another sport. Try and deny that Mark Cavendish is the best Sprinter, Chris Hoy the best at the Keirin, and Bradley Wiggins (much as I dislike the guy) the best at the Pursuit, and we'll really know you're talking shite.

Another point is just that- tennis is just tennis, football is just football.. whereas cycling is multi-faceted. Whether it be Cav winning sprints, Hoy winning the keirin, or Wiggins winning the pursuit, the perception is British men on bikes doing well. And that can translate into people getting on their bikes to ride a cycle track, a road, a dirt track, commute by bike, trails, cyclocross... everything!

You say tennis is only tennis, football is only football, but as we are predominantly cycling enthusiasts, surely a tennis fan would say "it's just blokes on bikes"
If the British entrant won the next 5 Olympic gold medals at say the 100m - would you be inspired to take up the 100m? I wouldn't.

You completely missed the point. Tennis IS just tennis- but bike riding is many different forms of "just blokes on bikes", and that's why it's far more accessible and popular than tennis.

And no, I wouldn't be inspired. I already run and swim as well as bike- but for no other reason than I enjoy them- same as I enjoy riding my bike. But I wasn't inspired to ride a bike or run or swim by any Briton being good at it- partly cos I don't care, and partly cos I don't see myself as British. I don't ever remember there being a good rider from Northern Ireland or Republic of Ireland- which is who would be more likely to "inspire" me. I ride a bike cos my Dad taught me when I was 3 and I was always brought up to be an active kid, so I've always enjoyed it- and then I was further inspired by the incredible Lance Armstrong. He's a Texan and my Dad's a Canuck, so it's actually nothing to do with British inspiration at all!

ratsbeyfus

So when you watch the cricket do you support any team at all, or just go to watch the individuals play? Assuming you support a team, what 'logic' do you use to choose your chosen team?

celbianchi

paulcuthbert wrote:

But I wasn't inspired to ride a bike or run or swim by any Briton being good at it-

That's the very point I have been making, that success achieved by one's home nation is not a surefire reason to increase cycling popularity. Replace Brit by Irishman/woman in your case.

celbianchi

ratsbeyfus wrote:

So when you watch the cricket do you support any team at all, or just go to watch the individuals play? Assuming you support a team, what 'logic' do you use to choose your chosen team?

Not interested in cricket any more, but in my younger days I'd favour flamboyant players like David Gower, Viv Richards. Also, I used to really admire the Aussies when Border, Waugh, Healey etc were at their pomp.

Football - I used to be really into my footy until my late 20's I guess and whilst hailing from Wirral support LFC over Tranmere, mainly because most of the family did. My dad took us to watch England schoolboys v Scotland schoolboys when I was about 10 and Dalglish was my hero, he wan't pleased that I wanted Scotland to beat England simply because of KD.
The logic I'd select for international football was whichever country had the most LFC players in the XI.

celbianchi

ratsbeyfus wrote:

So when you watch the cricket do you support any team at all, or just go to watch the individuals play? Assuming you support a team, what 'logic' do you use to choose your chosen team?

Not interested in cricket any more, but in my younger days I'd favour flamboyant players like David Gower, Viv Richards. Also, I used to really admire the Aussies when Border, Waugh, Healey etc were at their pomp.

Football - I used to be really into my footy until my late 20's I guess and whilst hailing from Wirral support LFC over Tranmere, mainly because most of the family did. My dad took us to watch England schoolboys v Scotland schoolboys when I was about 10 and Dalglish was my hero, he wan't pleased that I wanted Scotland to beat England simply because of KD.
The logic I'd select for international football was whichever country had the most LFC players in the XI.

ratsbeyfus

celbianchi wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

So when you watch the cricket do you support any team at all, or just go to watch the individuals play? Assuming you support a team, what 'logic' do you use to choose your chosen team?

Not interested in cricket any more, but in my younger days I'd favour flamboyant players like David Gower, Viv Richards. Also, I used to really admire the Aussies when Border, Waugh, Healey etc were at their pomp.

Football - I used to be really into my footy until my late 20's I guess and whilst hailing from Wirral support LFC over Tranmere, mainly because most of the family did. My dad took us to watch England schoolboys v Scotland schoolboys when I was about 10 and Dalglish was my hero, he wan't pleased that I wanted Scotland to beat England simply because of KD.
The logic I'd select for international football was whichever country had the most LFC players in the XI.

So you never supported a cricket team... right.

Football... you chose a local team to support, yet find it strange that others might use a similar criteria for other sports.

Hmmm

dougzz

paulcuthbert wrote:

You completely missed the point. Tennis IS just tennis- but bike riding is many different forms of "just blokes on bikes", and that's why it's far more accessible and popular than tennis.

Ridiculous to say Tennis is just tennis, and football is just football. Clay court tennis is a completely different game to grass court tennis. Different skills and attributes make players good on different surfaces. For some a clay court is as different to a grass court as a GT is to a one day classic. Some like Borg conquer both, other greats like McEnroe never master clay. To some football is a just a bunch of blokes kicking a ball, to others it's euphoria or complete depression. Each sport offers something to some and not to others. But anything can be reduced to a bunch of x doing y. Anything that paints 'your' sport as superior is really just subjective.

celbianchi

ratsbeyfus wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

So when you watch the cricket do you support any team at all, or just go to watch the individuals play? Assuming you support a team, what 'logic' do you use to choose your chosen team?

Not interested in cricket any more, but in my younger days I'd favour flamboyant players like David Gower, Viv Richards. Also, I used to really admire the Aussies when Border, Waugh, Healey etc were at their pomp.

Football - I used to be really into my footy until my late 20's I guess and whilst hailing from Wirral support LFC over Tranmere, mainly because most of the family did. My dad took us to watch England schoolboys v Scotland schoolboys when I was about 10 and Dalglish was my hero, he wan't pleased that I wanted Scotland to beat England simply because of KD.
The logic I'd select for international football was whichever country had the most LFC players in the XI.

So you never supported a cricket team... right.

Football... you chose a local team to support, yet find it strange that others might use a similar criteria for other sports.

Hmmm

Decent argument, but I would not automatically choose any sportsman from the Merseyside area simply because we shared a similar postcode. And that's my argument with having a bond with someone simply because you were born in the same place.

I obviously have a different view about supporting brits because they are brits, there's more to it than that.

P_Tucker

RichN95 wrote:

But why on earth would I support a country I have no links with over one that I live in?

A better question would be: why support any country at all? Like celbianchi, when watching for e.g. rugby I typically "support" the team I think is playing the more entertaining rugby. But, ultimately I don't really care who wins. Why would I - what effect does it have on me?

RichN95 wrote:

You are a product of the culture of that country.

To a very limited extent; you are far more a product of the "culture" of your immediate family and neighbours. Take someone born in a private hospital in Chelsea and someone born in a sink estate in Glasgow; what common culture are they likely to share? Now compare that with someone born in Chelsea and someone born in the equivalent suburb of Paris. Far more likely to share a common bond.

I don't fit into any of the common English stereotypes, so I don't consider myself defined by my nationality. Indeed, although I know little about you, I can see that you happen to be interested in a niche sport, wilfully ignoring the "culture" of sport in this country.

jimmythecuckoo

Love Tommy V for his attacking prowess. Beyond that, not too many of the current batch grab me.

I support the Brits because I am patriotic but the last 8 pages of this thread show not all agree with that standpoint

paulcuthbert

dougzz wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

You completely missed the point. Tennis IS just tennis- but bike riding is many different forms of "just blokes on bikes", and that's why it's far more accessible and popular than tennis.

Ridiculous to say Tennis is just tennis, and football is just football. Clay court tennis is a completely different game to grass court tennis. Different skills and attributes make players good on different surfaces. For some a clay court is as different to a grass court as a GT is to a one day classic. Some like Borg conquer both, other greats like McEnroe never master clay. To some football is a just a bunch of blokes kicking a ball, to others it's euphoria or complete depression. Each sport offers something to some and not to others. But anything can be reduced to a bunch of x doing y. Anything that paints 'your' sport as superior is really just subjective.

Show me where I "painted my sport as superior" and I'll agree with you. I said I prefer it- I didn't say it was superior to any other sport.

And I think you missed the point- you're talking about technicalities of the game now, whereas what I meant was if people see it, they'll do it. They won't assess the different technicalities and intricacies of whatever discipline they've just seen. They see man on bike- be it track, dirt, road, whatever- and they see man on court

celbianchi

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Love Tommy V for his attacking prowess. Beyond that, not too many of the current batch grab me.

I support the Brits because I am patriotic but the last 8 pages of this thread show not all agree with that standpoint

I'm glad someone has finally said it, despite not having any patriotic leanings myself I realise that most people do. What I am trying to understand is the emotional reason why people are more drawn to people from the same lump of rock than another bloke born on a different lump of rock. And I don't think we have answered that still (nor will we)
There's nothing wrong with supporting your fellow countryman at all, I just don't have something inside me which draws me to fellow Brits.
I was taking the piss a little with the plastic bowler hat reference - 99.9% of sports fans will have an allegiance to their home nation without any sinister underlying nationalistic leanings.

Turfle

P_Tucker wrote:

To a very limited extent; you are far more a product of the "culture" of your immediate family and neighbours. Take someone born in a private hospital in Chelsea and someone born in a sink estate in Glasgow; what common culture are they likely to share? Now compare that with someone born in Chelsea and someone born in the equivalent suburb of Paris. Far more likely to share a common bond.

I don't fit into any of the common English stereotypes, so I don't consider myself defined by my nationality. Indeed, although I know little about you, I can see that you happen to be interested in a niche sport, wilfully ignoring the "culture" of sport in this country.

Totally disagree. The posh fella in Chelsea and the downtrodden Glaswegian will both know what Coronation Street is, who Terry Wogan is, why Rangers and Celtic don't get along, what a Greggs the Bakers is, what year England won the World Cup, what the Ashes are. etc etc. That is our shared culture, and the fella from Paris is unlikely to share it.

I guarantee you fit into many English stereotypes. The overwhelming, and misplaced fear of xenophobia probably being one of them.

rick_chasey

Turfle wrote:

I guarantee you fit into many English stereotypes. The overwhelming, and misplaced fear of xenophobia probably being one of them.

Fear of Xenophobia?

Phobophobia?

Most people I've come across in the UK are very comfortable with their xenophobia.

pb21

Just because patriotism is possibly an irrational feeling doesn’t mean it is meaningless or not important and therefore we should rationalise it away completely.

I don’t think patriotism would exist if it didn’t serve a positive purpose from an evolutionary point of view. Having said that I am not saying we should just go around blindly following a particular line of thought just because it is patriotic, as we have evolved to a point where we can begin to rationalise our thoughts.

So basically I think patriotism is a good thing as long as you dont become narrow minded and bigoted, and keep a strong sense of perspective.

Having said that most of the British riders dont excite me and my favourite rider is Gilbert by miles.

Turfle

Rick Chasey wrote:

Turfle wrote:

I guarantee you fit into many English stereotypes. The overwhelming, and misplaced fear of xenophobia probably being one of them.

Fear of Xenophobia?

Phobophobia?

Most people I've come across in the UK are very comfortable with their xenophobia.

Half the country is, and the other half containing us lefties are stereotyped as seeing it everywhere.

Maybe "the fear of being seen as xenophobic" would be more accurate.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Most people I've come across in the UK are very comfortable with their xenophobia.

To quote Michael Caine in Austin Powers: Goldmember:

"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch."



(Not my view, obviously)

FJS

Turfle wrote:

Half the country is, and the other half containing us lefties are stereotyped as seeing it everywhere.

Maybe "the fear of being seen as xenophobic" would be more accurate.

I can assure you that that is not a stereotype most non-English would associate the English with

Turfle

FJS wrote:

Turfle wrote:

Half the country is, and the other half containing us lefties are stereotyped as seeing it everywhere.

Maybe "the fear of being seen as xenophobic" would be more accurate.

I can assure you that that is not a stereotype most non-English would associate the English with

Perhaps not, but a healthy chunk of Englanders would.

Political Correctness gone mad.

jimmythecuckoo

celbianchi wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Love Tommy V for his attacking prowess. Beyond that, not too many of the current batch grab me.

I support the Brits because I am patriotic but the last 8 pages of this thread show not all agree with that standpoint

I'm glad someone has finally said it, despite not having any patriotic leanings myself I realise that most people do. What I am trying to understand is the emotional reason why people are more drawn to people from the same lump of rock than another bloke born on a different lump of rock. And I don't think we have answered that still (nor will we)
There's nothing wrong with supporting your fellow countryman at all, I just don't have something inside me which draws me to fellow Brits.
I was taking the wee-wee a little with the plastic bowler hat reference - 99.9% of sports fans will have an allegiance to their home nation without any sinister underlying nationalistic leanings.

Borthers in arms

rick_chasey

Turfle wrote:

FJS wrote:

Turfle wrote:

Half the country is, and the other half containing us lefties are stereotyped as seeing it everywhere.

Maybe "the fear of being seen as xenophobic" would be more accurate.

I can assure you that that is not a stereotype most non-English would associate the English with

Perhaps not, but a healthy chunk of Englanders would.

Political Correctness gone mad.

Ah, time for the obligatory internet response to "Political correctness gone mad".

Turfle

Rick Chasey wrote:

Turfle wrote:

FJS wrote:

Turfle wrote:

Half the country is, and the other half containing us lefties are stereotyped as seeing it everywhere.

Maybe "the fear of being seen as xenophobic" would be more accurate.

I can assure you that that is not a stereotype most non-English would associate the English with

Perhaps not, but a healthy chunk of Englanders would.

Political Correctness gone mad.

Ah, time for the obligatory internet response to "Political correctness gone mad".

Maybe I should have put it in quotes myself.

P_Tucker

pb21 wrote:

I don’t think patriotism would exist if it didn’t serve a positive purpose from an evolutionary point of view.

How long have countries been around? In evolutionary terms, not very long at all. So it's not "evolved" in the conventional gene sense. And even if it was, rape has evolved as a perfectly sensible mating strategy, subject to certain conditions - would you advocate that too?

I reckon patriotism/nationalism is most likely a misifiring of the tendency of genes (and hence the individuals in which they reside) to promote caring for kin combined with a healthy dose of "marketing" by the state over the last few centuries - "culture" if you will. I'm sure we can all think of some examples in the last 70 years of the state using "marketing" to persuade otherwise perfectly rational people to do, or at least not oppose, some pretty horrific things.

Turfle

Hitler!!

P_Tucker

Turfle wrote:

Hitler!!

Great, now you've Godwinned the thread. Racist.