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celbianchi

I'm afraid I side with the comically labelled forum troll here. Having an affinity to someone you have never met simply because they were born on or represent the lump of rock upon which one is born is ridiculous.
If you know the person on an individual basis or raced against them as they moved up the ranks then I understand it. But to simply root for someone because they are British is a pretty ridiculous state of affairs.

Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

Turfle

celbianchi wrote:

I'm afraid I side with the comically labelled forum troll here. Having an affinity to someone you have never met simply because they were born on or represent the lump of rock upon which one is born is ridiculous.
If you know the person on an individual basis or raced against them as they moved up the ranks then I understand it. But to simply root for someone because they are British is a pretty ridiculous state of affairs.

Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

I highly doubt many people have an affinity for them JUST because they're British. I've never met Geraint Thomas, never raced against him either, but I've been watching and reading about him for god knows how long. Would seem odd not to root for him when he's racing against riders I barely know from adam.

Labeling people as Sun lovers (and worse) simply for supporting British riders seems a far more tribalistic attitude than those you're accusing of it.

finchy

celbianchi wrote:

I'm afraid I side with the comically labelled forum troll here. Having an affinity to someone you have never met simply because they were born on or represent the lump of rock upon which one is born is ridiculous.
If you know the person on an individual basis or raced against them as they moved up the ranks then I understand it. But to simply root for someone because they are British is a pretty ridiculous state of affairs.

Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

Bollox. I, and a few others, have written a few arguments for why we might rationally want to support British riders. Those who then start the xenophobia accusations never bother to answer those arguments, presumably because they can't.

You aren't by any chance related to Student Grant, are you?

celbianchi

johnfinch wrote:

Bollox. I, and a few others, have written a few arguments for why we might rationally want to support British riders. Those who then start the xenophobia accusations never bother to answer those arguments, presumably because they can't.

You aren't by any chance related to Student Grant, are you?

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round? One of the worlds best triple jumpers is British, I don't see children hopping, skipping and jumping their way about the place.
I don't recall making a xenophobic accusation, I simply said that choosing to follow a person or a team simply because you were share a country of birth is a strange concept and one which I don't understand.

dougzz

celbianchi wrote:

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round? One of the worlds best triple jumpers is British, I don't see children hopping, skipping and jumping their way about the place.
I don't recall making a xenophobic accusation, I simply said that choosing to follow a person or a team simply because you were share a country of birth is a strange concept and one which I don't understand.

Hardly, it's completely common place, whatever you think of it, it's absolutely the norm for people to be more interested in sports people or teams from their own country. There are exceptions of course, but it's not a strange concept is it?

RichN95.

celbianchi wrote:

I don't recall making a xenophobic accusation.

celbianchi wrote:

Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

Do you think we're stupid?

Turfle

People never get on the Basques for supporting other Basques.

P_Tucker

Turfle wrote:

I highly doubt many people have an affinity for them JUST because they're British

Do you honestly believe that? The same people who support British athletes in the Olympic games in sports they couldn't give a toss about?

paulcuthbert

celbianchi wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Bollox. I, and a few others, have written a few arguments for why we might rationally want to support British riders. Those who then start the xenophobia accusations never bother to answer those arguments, presumably because they can't.

You aren't by any chance related to Student Grant, are you?

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round?

That's a stupid and naive perception. You telling me you've never noticed more kids out on the road playing tennis around Wimbledon time, or more kids kicking a ball about the streets on a World Cup year? If Britain is winning medals at Olympic games and generally doing well at all levels of the sport, of course it's going to be more popular!

Cycling is something that is accessible to most people, and really requires little skill/effort to participate in. If you have a bike and know how to ride it, you're there. Sure, if you're racing or doing long rides it might take effort, but for a lot of people it's a leisure activity that has caught the public's imagination because of British success. Cycling also has a lot of positives compared to other sports (which Britons might be successful at) which make it more appealing. It's one of the best forms of exercise (at any level) and is a very green activity, so people are more likely to think "that's a good idea- it's good for me and it's good for the environment". Plus, after buying a bike (which is a little as maybe 30 quid) it's pretty much free to do. So if Britons are doing well at a competitive level, then it gets more airtime- so of course it's going to be more popular.

Plus, if you're like me and haven't always been really into it, but you get bitten by the bug, you're likely to share your passion. I know for a fact people I know have started riding their bikes more because they've seen my passion for it, and seen my progress from 18-stone to 13-stone man with little attention paid to actually wanting to lose weight.

It's just naturally good for your body and your mind, so why would it not be so popular? I fucking love cycling!

finchy

celbianchi wrote:

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round? One of the worlds best triple jumpers is British, I don't see children hopping, skipping and jumping their way about the place.

It raises the profile of the sport. Can you honestly say you haven't noticed this happening in the last few years? Cyclists win SPOTY, honours being handed out, etc.

Murray hasn't actually won one of the big 4 tournaments yet, so hardly a good comparison to the Olympic team/Mark Cavendish and triple jumping, to be honest, I haven't a clue whether it's becoming more or less popular or roughly the same. Do you know?

celbianchi wrote:

I don't recall making a xenophobic accusation, I simply said that choosing to follow a person or a team simply because you were share a country of birth is a strange concept and one which I don't understand.

So what was the Sun/plastic hats bit all about then? Common perception has those types down as fat, beer-swilling, red-faced, xenophobic cretins. If you chuck that insult at people, don't expect them not to react.

celbianchi

RichN95 wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

Do you think we're stupid?

You telling me that this doesn't happen? Granted more so the Eng-er-land mentality.
How many people got an interest in curling when the British womens team won that gold medal? There's a huge number of people in this country who'd support anything in a British/English top even if it was in an event they knew nothing about.

celbianchi

dougzz wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round? One of the worlds best triple jumpers is British, I don't see children hopping, skipping and jumping their way about the place.
I don't recall making a xenophobic accusation, I simply said that choosing to follow a person or a team simply because you were share a country of birth is a strange concept and one which I don't understand.

Hardly, it's completely common place, whatever you think of it, it's absolutely the norm for people to be more interested in sports people or teams from their own country. There are exceptions of course, but it's not a strange concept is it?

I genuinely think it is a strange concept. Why should one have a loyalty to Brits simply because they were born on the same island. Let's imagine a ficticous 2 up sprint between Geraint Thomas and Hayden Roulstan for arguments sake. Most people have never met either man, what compels one to root for the Brit? Let's say you put 50 random men off the street in the room to watch this sprint, none of whom had ever seen a cycle race. What ratio do you think would support Thomas?

P_Tucker

dougzz wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round? One of the worlds best triple jumpers is British, I don't see children hopping, skipping and jumping their way about the place.
I don't recall making a xenophobic accusation, I simply said that choosing to follow a person or a team simply because you were share a country of birth is a strange concept and one which I don't understand.

Hardly, it's completely common place, whatever you think of it, it's absolutely the norm for people to be more interested in sports people or teams from their own country. There are exceptions of course, but it's not a strange concept is it?

It is from a logical point of view. That the majority of the population hold a point of view is completely disconnected from whether that point of view is right or sensible.

celbianchi

paulcuthbert wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Bollox. I, and a few others, have written a few arguments for why we might rationally want to support British riders. Those who then start the xenophobia accusations never bother to answer those arguments, presumably because they can't.

You aren't by any chance related to Student Grant, are you?

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round?

That's a stupid and naive perception. You telling me you've never noticed more kids out on the road playing tennis around Wimbledon time,

!

Which part of YEAR ROUND was not clear? There has always been a 2 week boom in local tennis court usage around Wimbledon fortnight, was evident when I was a lad 25 years ago.
Murray being one of the best in the world does not appear to increase tennis' popularity

RichN95.

celbianchi wrote:

You telling me that this doesn't happen? Granted more so the Eng-er-land mentality.
How many people got an interest in curling when the British womens team won that gold medal? There's a huge number of people in this country who'd support anything in a British/English top even if it was in an event they knew nothing about.

Of course, it happens. But it's not really that common - just a minority of England football fans.

However, you claimed that you had not made any xenophobia accusation, when clearly you had - equating favouring British sportsmen to some sort of jingoistic nationalism.

If I want Cavendish to beat Petacchi or Wiggins to beat Cancellara, it's not because I hate Italy and Switzerland. I also want McEwen and Boonen to beat them too.

Cleat Eastwood

celbianchi wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Those that do, I bet can't wait for the 'soaraway Sun' to give out the plastic bowler hats and roll out the "For you Fritz, the tournament is over" type headlines during the world cup.

Do you think we're stupid?

You telling me that this doesn't happen? Granted more so the Eng-er-land mentality.
How many people got an interest in curling when the British womens team won that gold medal? There's a huge number of people in this country who'd support anything in a British/English top even if it was in an event they knew nothing about.

That doesn't mean their support is racist, xenophobic or patriotic; You have no idea why somone supports one team over another, yet you are presumptuous enough to suggest you do. The word you're failing to add to your vocabulary is partisan. Thats all it is partisan support based on any range of criteria from sharing the participants land of origin to having atteneded the same school, to even having a passion for the sport. Its a human response that adds enjoyment to the spectacle.

Read back through the posts in the pro race section and see just how many of the lance haters have mentioned having an admiration for his abilities. You see it is possible to support those individuals or national teams with whom one has no direct relationship or indeed liking; It;s all about perception and perception by its nature will be partisan.

celbianchi

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

That doesn't mean their support is racist, xenophobic or patriotic; You have no idea why somone supports one team over another, yet you are presumptuous enough to suggest you do.

What I am really saying here is that there is no logical reason for an overwhelming majority of people to form an allegiance with a team or individual that shares their birthplace. Given that the vast majority of Englishmen and women will support England at whatever the sport is, I think intersting, they have in 99% of the population no closer link with the English team or individual than the opponent other than being born on the same island.
I'm not saying it's wrong, just illogical to my thought process.

finchy

celbianchi wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

That doesn't mean their support is racist, xenophobic or patriotic; You have no idea why somone supports one team over another, yet you are presumptuous enough to suggest you do.

What I am really saying here is that there is no logical reason for an overwhelming majority of people to form an allegiance with a team or individual that shares their birthplace. Given that the vast majority of Englishmen and women will support England at whatever the sport is, I think intersting, they have in 99% of the population no closer link with the English team or individual than the opponent other than being born on the same island.
I'm not saying it's wrong, just illogical to my thought process.

I want English/British sportsmen and women to do well in sports I care about. Couldn't give a monkeys how the rugby union or showjumping teams get on.

There's also the friendly banter aspect - I've lived abroad when England have lost very badly and took a load of stick for it, I'd like to be able to get my revenge when England wins.

paulcuthbert

celbianchi wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Bollox. I, and a few others, have written a few arguments for why we might rationally want to support British riders. Those who then start the xenophobia accusations never bother to answer those arguments, presumably because they can't.

You aren't by any chance related to Student Grant, are you?

Why would British cyclists doing well make cycling more popular? One of the top 4 tennis players in the world is British, I don't see the local courts rammed year round?

That's a stupid and naive perception. You telling me you've never noticed more kids out on the road playing tennis around Wimbledon time,

!

Which part of YEAR ROUND was not clear? There has always been a 2 week boom in local tennis court usage around Wimbledon fortnight, was evident when I was a lad 25 years ago.
Murray being one of the best in the world does not appear to increase tennis' popularity

2 differences. Pretty sure tennis not a year-round sport, whereas cycling is more that. And having one Briton at 4th best in the world at one sport (lagging well behind 1st, 2nd and 3rd it must be said!) is not the same as having the 3 of best in the world at another sport. Try and deny that Mark Cavendish is the best Sprinter, Chris Hoy the best at the Keirin, and Bradley Wiggins (much as I dislike the guy) the best at the Pursuit, and we'll really know you're talking shite.

Another point is just that- tennis is just tennis, football is just football.. whereas cycling is multi-faceted. Whether it be Cav winning sprints, Hoy winning the keirin, or Wiggins winning the pursuit, the perception is British men on bikes doing well. And that can translate into people getting on their bikes to ride a cycle track, a road, a dirt track, commute by bike, trails, cyclocross... everything!

P_Tucker

johnfinch wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

That doesn't mean their support is racist, xenophobic or patriotic; You have no idea why somone supports one team over another, yet you are presumptuous enough to suggest you do.

What I am really saying here is that there is no logical reason for an overwhelming majority of people to form an allegiance with a team or individual that shares their birthplace. Given that the vast majority of Englishmen and women will support England at whatever the sport is, I think intersting, they have in 99% of the population no closer link with the English team or individual than the opponent other than being born on the same island.
I'm not saying it's wrong, just illogical to my thought process.

I want English/British sportsmen and women to do well in sports I care about. Couldn't give a monkeys how the rugby union or showjumping teams get on.

There's also the friendly banter aspect - I've lived abroad when England have lost very badly and took a load of stick for it, I'd like to be able to get my revenge when England wins.

See, that's the difference. If some German bloke took the piss out of me based on the performance of an English cyclist (lets call him John) who recently lost to a German cyclist (lets call him Fritz) I'd reply "are you Fritz?" "No" "Well I'm not John - now f**k off". I'd also hand him my copy of the Daily Mail I carry around for such happenings.

RichN95.

celbianchi wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

That doesn't mean their support is racist, xenophobic or patriotic; You have no idea why somone supports one team over another, yet you are presumptuous enough to suggest you do.

What I am really saying here is that there is no logical reason for an overwhelming majority of people to form an allegiance with a team or individual that shares their birthplace. Given that the vast majority of Englishmen and women will support England at whatever the sport is, I think intersting, they have in 99% of the population no closer link with the English team or individual than the opponent other than being born on the same island.
I'm not saying it's wrong, just illogical to my thought process.

No, what is illogical would be me, as someone who is English/Welsh, supporting a Spanish or French team above them.

celbianchi

paulcuthbert wrote:

2 differences. Pretty sure tennis not a year-round sport, whereas cycling is more that. And having one Briton at 4th best in the world at one sport (lagging well behind 1st, 2nd and 3rd it must be said!) is not the same as having the 3 of best in the world at another sport. Try and deny that Mark Cavendish is the best Sprinter, Chris Hoy the best at the Keirin, and Bradley Wiggins (much as I dislike the guy) the best at the Pursuit, and we'll really know you're talking shite.

Another point is just that- tennis is just tennis, football is just football.. whereas cycling is multi-faceted. Whether it be Cav winning sprints, Hoy winning the keirin, or Wiggins winning the pursuit, the perception is British men on bikes doing well. And that can translate into people getting on their bikes to ride a cycle track, a road, a dirt track, commute by bike, trails, cyclocross... everything!

The ATP csalendar seems to run 02/1/11 (Brisbane open) until 28/11/11 (Davis cup) this year, so pretty much year round. Fair point about Murray's standing in his sport compared to Cav, Hoy and Wiggo but I'd reckon more of the UK population know more about Andy Murray than Bradley Wiggins.
You say tennis is only tennis, football is only football, but as we are predominantly cycling enthusiasts, surely a tennis fan would say "it's just blokes on bikes"
If the British entrant won the next 5 Olympic gold medals at say the 100m - would you be inspired to take up the 100m? I wouldn't.

celbianchi

RichN95 wrote:

celbianchi wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

That doesn't mean their support is racist, xenophobic or patriotic; You have no idea why somone supports one team over another, yet you are presumptuous enough to suggest you do.

What I am really saying here is that there is no logical reason for an overwhelming majority of people to form an allegiance with a team or individual that shares their birthplace. Given that the vast majority of Englishmen and women will support England at whatever the sport is, I think intersting, they have in 99% of the population no closer link with the English team or individual than the opponent other than being born on the same island.
I'm not saying it's wrong, just illogical to my thought process.

No, what is illogical would be me, as someone who is English/Welsh, supporting a Spanish or French team above them.

I agree that what your saying describes the norm, but why? Only common link being birthplace? What causes the emotional bond?

RichN95.

celbianchi wrote:

I agree that what your saying describes the norm, but why? Only common link being birthplace? What causes the emotional bond?

But why on earth would I support a country I have no links with over one that I live in? It's more than just a birthplace. Your nationality greatly defines who you are. You are a product of the culture of that country.

Turfle

P_Tucker wrote:

Turfle wrote:

I highly doubt many people have an affinity for them JUST because they're British

Do you honestly believe that? The same people who support British athletes in the Olympic games in sports they couldn't give a toss about?

Yes, I honestly believe that, especially of cycling fans. Sure there are some meatheads that will, but it's best not to judge by the meatheads.

Them being British is the starting point, and as alluded to earlier, gives access to things like interviews. I'm sure Jonathan Castroviejo is a lovely man, but I don't know the first thing about him. I do know a lot about Alex Dowsett.

I just find it such a juvenile argument to suggest we should ignore human nature and not be attracted to those we find most similar to ourselves. That there is the suggestion that it is akin to, or part of some slippery slope towards dangerous nationalism is frankly insane. Does it mean I'd be cheering on a drunk stranger kicking in someone with a French shirt on just cos he painted his face in the St George cross? Doubtful.

bennyandrew

I care not one iota were a rider is born,they either appeal to me or they dont,if a English rider is wheelsucking up a mountain i will cheer for the rider doing the work,cycling is to important for slavishly following one rider or team,leave such blinkered devotion to sheeplike football fans,

TMR

RichN95 wrote:

No, what is illogical would be me, as someone who is English/Welsh, supporting a Spanish or French team above them.

No, what is illogical is to care what someone else does. A person can support whoever they like regardless of who they are or where they are from. Any other view is retarded and neanderthal.

magicrhodes

This wheel sucking thing really annoys me. There are many ways to win a race and to win you have to beat all comers from crazy attackers to cold calculating riders.

You want to be the best you have to beat them all. This snobbery is quite frankly stupid. We all know the effort it can take to stick on a wheel, particularly uphill. To you sitting there being so bloody selfrighteous on your comfy sofa a rider is wheel sucking, to him he is in the red zone hanging on for grim death to limit any losses.

For some guys mountains are about surivial for others like Bertie is a chance to cheat to kid you all into how brilliant he is!

RichN95.

The Mad Rapper wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

No, what is illogical would be me, as someone who is English/Welsh, supporting a Spanish or French team above them.

No, what is illogical is to care what someone else does. A person can support whoever they like regardless of who they are or where they are from. Any other view is retarded and neanderthal.

I agree. Support whoever you like* (although I find it strange against your own country in a team sport). But I object to being told that it's somehow wrong to favour British riders.


*Unless you're like a guy in a pub during the last World Cup who loudly proclaimed to his friends what a big Spain fan was due to their 'artistry'. He then asked why Messi wasn't playing.

bennyandrew

I never said i disagee with wheelsucking you have to do what you have to do to get up a mountain,i just mean when it comes down to it i will always root for the attacking style any day.just my choice thats all.