Who on BR has bought a 'cheap' Chinese carbon frame?
Comments
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If that is the case then I can't argue with you. I suppose if I got the chance to try them side by side I would be convinced. It would be interesting if someone did the 'saw' test!Cal_Stewart wrote:nick the point is the r838 frame is the same weather its a ribble, de rosa or a FM015 if you look at the price different between the ribble and the FM015 and take into account ribbles mark up etc its hard to believe its not the same carbon. Plus with Chinese factory's there not going to start making unsafe frames as there's more money to be made selling direct. If one fails the word will spread faster than you can say R sys.
Plus if i win the lotto I'll buy one real dogma and the Chinese one and get them tested. I'll do the sawing my self.0 -
Nickwill wrote:I can certainly tell the difference between different bikes. I would rather buy a bike on ride characteristics than one that is mediocre to ride, but looks like an expensive model. There is also the issue of safety.
Your failure here is to assume that they are mediocre to ride. Even more so to assume the branded models are better than mediocre. No-one can make these assumptions until they've ridden both - by then assumptions become facts...
It's funny you then go on to recommend Planet X and Ribble considering they're widely considered frames with very mediocre ride qualities. They only get good review marks because of their relative value. But that is the crux of the argument.
People are willing to hedge their bets that these Chinese frames are 1) the same as the ones sold by Ribble and PX and 2) they ride pretty good. Going further, a Dogma may ride better than it's replica but how much better in real money terms? In this case £3,200 better?
This is all about what people deem sufficient for their own needs. Not what is sufficient in the eyes of the industry who, lets not forget, produce these frames for professionals. It should also be noted that these 'ride characteristics' we all talk about are based on what the manufacturer tells us. What the manufacturer tells us could be (and probably is) 100% true, but again lets not forget that 'stiffness' is determined in a scientific lab test, measured by machines - not under the feet of a human. Therein lies the limitations of what the manufacturer tells us.
This years model may be 10% stiffer but were we even 'accessing' 100% of the capacity of last years model? I doubt it.
Overall there are great frames, good frames and not as good frames BUT very very few bad frames. These Chinese frames may be 'not as good' but they're certainly good enough on the evidence presented in this thread. That, my friend, is what the seemingly endless stream of naysayers fail to see through the fog of big brand marketing.
Pinarello may say 'Think Asymmetric', plenty of people 'Think Straight'. That is what you're witnessing here.0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:Nickwill wrote:I can certainly tell the difference between different bikes. I would rather buy a bike on ride characteristics than one that is mediocre to ride, but looks like an expensive model. There is also the issue of safety.
Your failure here is to assume that they are mediocre to ride. Even more so to assume the branded models are better than mediocre. No-one can make these assumptions until they've ridden both - by then assumptions become facts...
It's funny you then go on to recommend Planet X and Ribble considering they're widely considered frames with very mediocre ride qualities. They only get good review marks because of their relative value. But that is the crux of the argument.
People are willing to hedge their bets that these Chinese frames are 1) the same as the ones sold by Ribble and PX and 2) they ride pretty good. Going further, a Dogma may ride better than it's replica but how much better in real money terms? In this case £3,200 better?
This is all about what people deem sufficient for their own needs. Not what is sufficient in the eyes of the industry who, lets not forget, produce these frames for professionals. It should also be noted that these 'ride characteristics' we all talk about are based on what the manufacturer tells us. What the manufacturer tells us could be (and probably is) 100% true, but again lets not forget that 'stiffness' is determined in a scientific lab test, measured by machines - not under the feet of a human. Therein lies the limitations of what the manufacturer tells us.
This years model may be 10% stiffer but were we even 'accessing' 100% of the capacity of last years model? I doubt it.
Overall there are great frames, good frames and not as good frames BUT very very few bad frames. These Chinese frames may be 'not as good' but they're certainly good enough on the evidence presented in this thread. That, my friend, is what the seemingly endless stream of naysayers fail to see through the fog of big brand marketing.
Pinarello may say 'Think Asymmetric', plenty of people 'Think Straight'. That is what you're witnessing here.
Well, what can I say, spot on Mike, couldn't have put that better myself, especially re. 10% etc. So true.0 -
Also, if we're being black and white about it. A bad Chinese frame would ultimately be one that fails, cracks, breaks and from research I've yet to see one.
Personally I've raced my FM015 over some terrible roads for the past 2 seasons have yet to have a problem (touch wood).
As far as 'a good frame' goes, again personally I have found that its comfortable over 100 miles and handles well. I'm not looking for the minutia of characteristics here, just is it light - yes. Is it uncomfortable - no. Will it get me through a race - yes.
Ticks the boxes for me.0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:It's funny you then go on to recommend Planet X and Ribble considering they're widely considered frames with very mediocre ride qualities. They only get good review marks because of their relative value. But that is the crux of the argument.
Try not to fib - it doesn't help; people might get the wrong impression. Unless of course you genuinely think the following quotes are about frames with 'very mediocre ride qualities'......BikeRadar on Ribble Stealth wrote:The handling is also extremely sharp, and it corners confidently and quickly, again the wheel and tyre combo playing a crucial part.It’s a really well-balanced feel right through from bar to back end too, rather than being stiff at the expensive of cruising comfort.The low overall weight of the bike and generous breathing space afforded by the more upright position means it shines on shallow, extended climbs too, sitting on tempo and spinning the compact ratio gears with an easy enthusiasm.BikeRadar on Ribble Nero CX wrote:Excellent mainframe stiffness and low weight means that it’s got a real sustain to its speed gain too. In fact, the overall sharpness, enthusiasm and responsiveness of the Nero is what makes it such a compelling ride.BikeRadar on Ribble Evo Pro wrote:The Ribble carves through the tight stuff capably, the Pro-Lite wheels staying impressively flex-free no matter how hard you lean them over, and the Deda cockpit holding firm without any mushiness at all as you shift the pressure around.
These all scored 4 - 4.5. Granted, BikeRadar review scores don't seem as consistent as they ought to but if these were crap bikes, I doubt they would be recommended or described the way they are.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf you've totally mis-interpreted my point and my opinion of such bikes. I've never said they were crap. Far from it.
Equally you can't deny that none of them are outstanding, or especially good in terms of the whole industry. The PX top-tube issue is well documented for example. Many rate these frames as less stiff that higher end machines - yes that's subjective opinion but so are the quote's you've got right there. Don't begin to get me started on the BikeRadar/Cycling Plus reviews.... been there done that. Wasted my money buying that magazine a few times. They're mostly relaying (i.e. not saying anything different to) the manufacturers description, rightly or wrongly. End of.
Anyway, my real point was that the guy originally described these Chinese frames as mediocre then bizarrely came up with the suggestions of so called better options such as Ribble and PX frames which are.... you guessed it - to all intents and purposes the same frames.0 -
And you can't deny that part of the BikeRadar/CyclingPlus ratings are based on price/value/cost/value for money e.t.c.BikeRadar on Ribble Stealth wrote:Were we able to score a bike 11 out of 10 for value, this would be it.
Clearly Ribble and PX are far superior in this respect compared to the big brands.
Also going back to my point about mediocrity/averagesness/nothing special (albeit good enough for me and the rest of us):BikeRadar on Ribble Stealth wrote:Some of our heavier testers weren’t entirely convinced by the ride
I wonder what they mean by this...
They skipped over that point very quickly! (no surprise :roll: ) 0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:Anyway, my real point was that the guy originally described these Chinese frames as mediocre then bizarrely came up with the suggestions of so called better options such as Ribble and PX frames which are.... you guessed it - to all intents and purposes the same frames.
I agree with you on that; I can't see the Ribble frames as being superior to these unbranded ones - but I still don't see where you get the idea that Ribbles at least are mediocre in handling (I don't know much about Planet X aside from them possibly being less stiff than average - but even that isn't necessarily a disadvantage; the bike industries obsession with stiffness is almost as innappropriate as the car industries joy in convincing people to put 17 inch rims on their shopping trolley cars and therefore wreck their handling. Effective frame stiffness is a combination of bike and rider and we aren't all fat! I'd probably find a frame made of half cooked spaghetti a bit too stiff).
BikeRadars reviews might be highly questionable but, on the other hand, how do you justify 'widely considered'? I haven't found any negative views online in a couple of quick searches at least.
Incidentally, I have a Ribble Gran Fondo and a Look 585. The Ribble stands up surprisingly well and is superb value; I'd say it is a very nice bike to ride and cheaper than the undbranded frames if you are buying a complete bike on C2W. Sometimes on killer climbs, I'm grateful for its slightly weightier front end as it perhaps reduces front end lift!
Infact, ironically given the content of the thread, the only thing that does disappoint me about the Gran Fondo is the paintjob. Chips far more easily than the Look - I'm pretty sure it picks up new chips parked in the dining room overnight. It'll probably need touching up after every big ride!Faster than a tent.......0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:BikeRadar on Ribble Stealth wrote:Some of our heavier testers weren’t entirely convinced by the ride
I wonder what they mean by this... They skipped over that point very quickly! (no surprise :roll: )
Oh come on! They didn't skip over that point as quickly as you skipped over the rest of the sentence!BikeRadar on Ribble Stealth wrote:Some of our heavier testers weren’t entirely convinced by the ride, but our lighter riders were extremely appreciative, with even the non-racers being wowed by its lightness and speed.
If all bikes were made stiff enough for fat people, then light people would never find a comfortable bike!EKIMIKE wrote:And you can't deny that part of the BikeRadar/CyclingPlus ratings are based on price/value/cost/value for money e.t.c.
No other way to do it - otherwise all cheap bikes would get 1 and all expensive bikes would get 5 (more or less). The ratings have to be normalised against price or the scoring just becomes an indication of price.
By your reckoning, if Ribbles score highly only because they are cheap, expensive bikes should score poorly simply because they are expensive. A bike that costs 1k and gets 4 out of 5 should be a very good bike unless you subscribe to the theory that spending another 2 or 3k gets you 2 or 3k more value. I don't but I do love my Look....!Faster than a tent.......0 -
Hey let's not get too sensitive about this it's only a bike frame
With the Chinese frames do you get what you pay for, I suspect the answer is yes. But from the lack of negative comments both here and on RoadBikeReview, I suspect you get a little more than you pay for, relative the cost of a brand name.
My Cervelo was built up from new components but sourced at bargain prices. My 2011 Boardman Team was acquired through the Cycle2Work scheme making it an even better bargain than my Cervelo. While the Cervelo is a much better bike with better components for the money the Boardman is the better bargain. BTW both the Cervelo and Boardman frames were made in Taiwan.
Is there anything wrong with seeking out a bargain, not in my view. Especially as most of us have spent plenty of money on our bikes over the years. If my recently ordered FM028 turns out to be a disappointment, so be it. But I won't pretend it's great if it's not.
However, should my FM028 turns out to be a great frame I'll be shouting about it on here especially as it comes with a custom paint finish that none of Ribble, Planet X, De Rosa, Pinarello, Cervelo et al can offer 0 -
Rolf F wrote:
By your reckoning, if Ribbles score highly only because they are cheap, expensive bikes should score poorly simply because they are expensive. A bike that costs 1k and gets 4 out of 5 should be a very good bike unless you subscribe to the theory that spending another 2 or 3k gets you 2 or 3k more value. I don't but I do love my Look....!
No they score well *in part* due to due to their incredible *value for money*. Again i don't see why you're twisting my words because i'm not criticising these bikes at all.
As for 'subscribing to the theory that spending another 2 or 3k gets you 2 or 3k more value' then please take a look up the page to the bit that i wrote and then MCRdave highlighted. :roll:
Would never have guessed you're a Ribble Gran Fondo owner Don't worry, it's a fine bike. It's nothing outstanding though. 0 -
Rolf F wrote:
...but I still don't see where you get the idea that Ribbles at least are mediocre in handling
Dude I never said that! I'm not surprised you still don't see where i got it fromRolf F wrote:Sometimes on killer climbs, I'm grateful for its slightly weightier front end as it perhaps reduces front end lift!
HAHAHAHA! Did you get that one from a BikeRadar/CyclingPlus review? That, my friend, is complete sh!te. 'Front end lift'... gimme a break 0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:Rolf F wrote:
...but I still don't see where you get the idea that Ribbles at least are mediocre in handling
Dude I never said that! I'm not surprised you still don't see where i got it fromRolf F wrote:Sometimes on killer climbs, I'm grateful for its slightly weightier front end as it perhaps reduces front end lift!
HAHAHAHA! Did you get that one from a BikeRadar/CyclingPlus review? That, my friend, is complete sh!te. 'Front end lift'... gimme a break0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:Rolf F wrote:
By your reckoning, if Ribbles score highly only because they are cheap, expensive bikes should score poorly simply because they are expensive. A bike that costs 1k and gets 4 out of 5 should be a very good bike unless you subscribe to the theory that spending another 2 or 3k gets you 2 or 3k more value. I don't but I do love my Look....!
No they score well *in part* due to due to their incredible *value for money*. Again i don't see why you're twisting my words because i'm not criticising these bikes at all.
As for 'subscribing to the theory that spending another 2 or 3k gets you 2 or 3k more value' then please take a look up the page to the bit that i wrote and then MCRdave highlighted. :roll:
Would never have guessed you're a Ribble Gran Fondo owner Don't worry, it's a fine bike. It's nothing outstanding though.
I don't think I'm twisting your words - but I think you did criticise them! If you didn't. it's your own fault for not being clear enough!
As to the Gran Fondo - I probably own it for the same reasons that you own the Boardman. The only real difference is that the componentry of the GF is much the same as that of the Look. I happened to end up with Record mechs for Centaur price, and the chainset on the Look is Carbon Centaur rather than alloy but otherwise the same bits. Realistically, I cannot say that the Look is a 'much' better bike than the Ribble. It is better but not better enough that, when I ride it, I always think 'I'd be slightly less tired now if I was on the Look' or 'the Look would have taken that corner better'. Things might change in time but the principal difference between the two is it feels cooler to be on the Look because it is a rare and desirable bike in a way that the Ribble isn't. And that isn't really tangible Faster than a tent.......0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:HAHAHAHA! Did you get that one from a BikeRadar/CyclingPlus review? That, my friend, is complete sh!te. 'Front end lift'... gimme a break
Nope - front end lift - I'm not used to bikes trying to wheelie on climbs all the time. Not sh!te at all! Just maybe, just maybe the heavier fork helps a bit.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:
As to the Gran Fondo - I probably own it for the same reasons that you own the Boardman.
Just quit now man, I own a Canyon.Rolf F wrote:Nope - front end lift - I'm not used to bikes trying to wheelie on climbs all the time. Not sh!te at all! Just maybe, just maybe the heavier fork helps a bit.
It has bugger all to do with the weight of the forks and everything to do with your technique. I.e. stop pulling up so hard. Honestly you think 300g is the different between you pulling your front wheel up and it remaining on the ground? 300g!?!?!?! Are you a mosquito?0 -
Can guarentee it weighs about 300g less than your Pinarello! It's a shame though, i can't stop taking of into space. It needs about 300g more weight to keep me rooted. 0
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EKIMIKE wrote:Can guarentee it weighs about 300g less than your Pinarello! It's a shame though, i can't stop taking of into space. It needs about 300g more weight to keep me rooted.
I'll lend you the forks of my Gran Fondo - they should more than do the job (they reduce front end lift don't you know!)Faster than a tent.......0 -
it's about the position of your center of gravity and wheelbase. no matter how light the bike is, the front wouldn't just lift off if you're not shifting weight of your body.Rolf F wrote:EKIMIKE wrote:HAHAHAHA! Did you get that one from a BikeRadar/CyclingPlus review? That, my friend, is complete sh!te. 'Front end lift'... gimme a break
Nope - front end lift - I'm not used to bikes trying to wheelie on climbs all the time. Not sh!te at all! Just maybe, just maybe the heavier fork helps a bit.0 -
Fight fight fight fight
your pinarello isn't from the company on this thread?
Don't come back i'm taking the mickey.eating parmos since 1981
Canyon Ultimate CF SLX Aero 09
Cervelo P5 EPS
www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=130387990 -
EKIMIKE/Rolf F why don't you have a race
Both chose a route and you both do each route, once on your own bike and once on the others bike. Quickest time overall gets a Chinese frame :?:
I'll chuck a tenner in the pot to buy the Chinese frame 0 -
I'd put a tenner in as well.
You both have to be on your 'cheap' bikes though (to factor out the front end lift).0 -
Can we get back to discussing the merits of the Chinese frames? Interested in real comparitive feedback if possible, a simple black carbon frame would be great if it rode as well as a typical mid-range big name bike.0
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tx14 wrote:it's about the position of your center of gravity and wheelbase. no matter how light the bike is, the front wouldn't just lift off if you're not shifting weight of your body.
A heavier fork shifts the centre of gravity forward. Probably mostly psychological though (was a tongue in cheek comment really) but the front does lift - effectively the same physics as performing manuals on MTBs.
As for races - I only do those when I can guarantee to win and I have no idea how fast EKIMIKE is Faster than a tent.......0 -
According to Ribble's website, the Gran Fondo has 20% less front end lift which at 10mph on a 10% gradient would equate to about 30 watts of power saved. So it wouldn't be a fair contest.
With any luck this sort of technology will trickle down to the carbonzone frames. Then all these myths about mediocre handling will be proven wrong. Damn forum keyboard mashers and their lies.0 -
Canny Jock wrote:Can we get back to discussing the merits of the Chinese frames? Interested in real comparitive feedback if possible, a simple black carbon frame would be great if it rode as well as a typical mid-range big name bike.
There's pages of it. Basically, you have a situation where these frames are being used by mid-range big name manufacturers such as Cube. Several people on here and RBR are really satisfied with their frames so there's absolutely no reason to doubt their suitability. They're a decent, cost-effective option.
You can be sure that they won't snap, wobble, bend or explode like many naysayers claim. You won't end up in hospital (i've seen that claimed on another forum!) or get injured riding one of these frames. The Chinese own the technology which gives them the manufacturing capabilities. They won't necessarily be innovative frames at the cutting edge, but thing's they've learned from the big boys they produce for are likely to be put to use in these frames.0 -
Hello,
Let me say the frame is excellent!
Paintjob is also well done.
The price/quality is amazing!
Price frame was €423,- ore GBP 375,-
More then three thousand kilometers and still perfect ride.
No complaints at all, I am very entusiastic.
I bought this fakeframe not to impress people because I have also the brandname bikes: Trek Madone 5.2, Cube Agree GTS Pro, Wilier Izoard.
This replica Dogma can compete with my highend carbonbikes and it looks great.
In fact it's my favourite bike!
Don't believe negative criticism of people who don't have bought one ore have no experiences with a Chinarello themselves. Mostly they are talking nonsens because they do not have one.
Read only reviews of the users, they know what they are talking about.
regards
Wevergo,
the Netherlands.
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It's one thing to buy a Chinese frame copy ( I might myself one day) but it's another thing altogether to have it painted up as a Pinarello. Very sad.0
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not sad at all - ignore this tool ^ - bike looks great!0
