NY Times - Cyclists are said to back claims Armstrong doped

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  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    johnfinch wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Good news IMO re SM..hope it helps end this sorry mess and let the sport move on. I guess it's
    not the news some of the lynch mob here were hoping for though http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5762/ ... lvain.aspx

    Seeing as this is now a legal case, shouldn't we be hoping that the truth, whatever it may be, comes out?

    Is this a becuase you dont like what she said kinda thing , it doesnt quite fit in with how you wanted it.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Good news IMO re SM..hope it helps end this sorry mess and let the sport move on. I guess it's
    not the news some of the lynch mob here were hoping for though http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5762/ ... lvain.aspx

    You're not allowed a lawyer at a grand jury I think, so how would he know what she said?

    Maybe she em told him

    Maybe she did. But only the grand jury know what they were told. All we know is she was in there for 7 hours. A long time to talk about idle gossip.

    Interesting Gub that you take things at face value when it suits you. Looks like you're just like the rest of us afterall.

    I dont think i am like the rest of you at all i dont have the the lynch mob mentality that categorises many of you. Anyway on to the point at hand its not a wild leap to think she would have told her lawyer what she said in response the the most important question.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Moray Gub wrote:
    johnfinch wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Good news IMO re SM..hope it helps end this sorry mess and let the sport move on. I guess it's
    not the news some of the lynch mob here were hoping for though http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5762/ ... lvain.aspx

    Seeing as this is now a legal case, shouldn't we be hoping that the truth, whatever it may be, comes out?

    Is this a becuase you dont like what she said kinda thing , it doesnt quite fit in with how you wanted it.

    No.

    As I said, the truth, whatever it may be. Not a kangaroo court, not a lynch mob, not a whitewash.

    What's wrong with that?
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I dont think i am like the rest of you at all i dont have the the lynch mob mentality that categorises many of you. Anyway on to the point at hand its not a wild leap to think she would have told her lawyer what she said in response the the most important question.

    Of course. But do you agree we don't know what she said?

    Her lawyer said she said something. She told us that. But what was said to those 20'ish people in the room, we have no idea? Agreed?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Richrd2205 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:



    You are correct that amphetamines enable (short term) things you would not otherwise be able to do. What won't work at all is the use day after day, where you are likely to see worse performance.
    ?

    I dont think anybody was saying that they were taken day after day after day but they were taken during a three week stage race and to good effect. So to say the EPO was the only drug that altered race results is plainly incorrect as both amphs and steroids have done that over the years. As to you other point regarding putting words into your mouth seems to me certain posters have come onto this forum and whenever they feel they are being misrepresnted they seem to get very indignant. How very drama queenish.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I dont think i am like the rest of you at all i dont have the the lynch mob mentality that categorises many of you. Anyway on to the point at hand its not a wild leap to think she would have told her lawyer what she said in response the the most important question.

    Of course. But do you agree we don't know what she said?

    Her lawyer said she said something. She told us that. But what was said to those 20'ish people in the room, we have no idea? Agreed?

    Well you do have an idea becuase two people have told you and given that the proceedings are legally recorded they are hardly likely to be telling lies. If Greg Lemond had come out from a grand jury hearing and said this and that you would accept it would you not ?
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:

    Well you do have an idea becuase two people have told you and given that the proceedings are legally recorded they are hardly likely to be telling lies. If Greg Lemond had come out from a grand jury hearing and said this and that you would accept it would you not ?

    I'd be more willing to accept it because he's not changed his story. However, I wouldn't know what he's said to a grand jury.

    One of the baseball players who was done for doping told the GJ the truth and lied to the media. It's not really an "out there" suggestion.

    Clearly she's lying somewhere. Maybe she lied to Lemond when she said she heard him say he used PED's? Maybe not. It's up to the GJ to decide which of the stories resembled the truth.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    Moray Gub wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:

    You're crossing a line there for me dennis. I, like many others who contribute to this debate, have been open and honest about how and why I feel about LA and I don't appreciate being called a liar.

    Oh you are such a
    41N76554F7L._SL160_.jpg

    Give over. You and dennis can spout whatever shite you like, but I'll not be told what I think or feel by either of you.
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  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:

    You're crossing a line there for me dennis. I, like many others who contribute to this debate, have been open and honest about how and why I feel about LA and I don't appreciate being called a liar.

    Oh you are such a
    41N76554F7L._SL160_.jpg

    Give over. You and dennis can spout whatever shite you like, but I'll not be told what I think or feel by either of you.

    What is it with forum posters these days so touchy......i bet you would like to slap me with your handbag !
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • cajun_cyclist
    cajun_cyclist Posts: 493
    edited September 2010
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    shm_uk wrote:
    When Usain Bolt destroyed the sprint world records everybody happily accepted his achievements were fantastic etc etc ... there has been nobody jumping up and down all over his achievements saying he must have doped because nobody could possibly run that much faster ...



    Yes there was.


    Lots.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/29 ... index.html

    http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/report_us ... gs_1284533

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/more-spor ... -21615169/

    I agree with the poster here, Chasey. I've read plenty of discussions on the topic in Running Forums, elsewhere.

    Bolt's running improved remarkably per an age time line, in other words, it's uncommon the way he shaved time off his sprint, Jamaica at the time has very weak doping controls. In fact, the 3rd World, Ethiopia, Kenya, places like that do not have the same strenuous testing as the West does. I've read plenty.

    http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/ Blog on drug use, they haven't really pinned anything on Bolt more about other sports personalities though he may come up in discussion from time to time.

    Tobias Unger was a German runner at the last Olympics who had doubts on Bolt.

    http://current.com/news-and-politics/89 ... -cheat.htm
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    Moray Gub wrote:

    What is it with forum posters these days so touchy......i bet you would like to slap me with your handbag !

    You really are a tedious troll, you do know that. don't you? If you're going to go down the abuse road then please try to think of something that's at least original or witty.
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  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    As for me, I'd like to hear someone admit his true feelings behind all this hatred, and not the usual fluff they give out. I'm still betting on jealously toward a person who won something a few more times than you can tolerate. I guess I'm back to square one with the old "you can't handle it".

    You've demonstrated very little empathic ability, .....

    I couldn't agree more with that statement. It's intentional on my part. Now, shall we take a good look at the "empathic ability" of some of the posters on this forum that you seem to want to defend? What about BB or micron? Do you see much "empathic ability" there?
    Remember, with me, it's pretty much a case of you slam whomever you please and if I believe that the reason you do it is jealously, hatred, can't handle it, or whatever, I'm going to say so. I simply do not believe all of the goody goody, save cycling from evil,
    we care, talk that comes out of this subject.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:

    What is it with forum posters these days so touchy......i bet you would like to slap me with your handbag !

    You really are a tedious troll, you do know that. don't you? If you're going to go down the abuse road then please try to think of something that's at least original or witty.

    All the time bearing in mind how sensitive you are of course, oh to have an opinion on your views......how dare we eh !. Listen buddy if you dont like what's said in here shoot over to something like the sewing bee forum i am sure you will find posters more to you liking there.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • cajun_cyclist
    cajun_cyclist Posts: 493
    http://www.soccerway.com/news/2010/Sept ... aims-book/
    Zinedine Zidane hit out Wednesday at the author of a book which suggested he and several other members of France's 1998 World Cup winning squad may have been involved in doping practices.

    Former France team doctor Jean-Pierre Paclet published 'Implosion' in August, in which he claimed that "blood sample tests on several France players just before the 1998 World Cup revealed anomalies".

    The former doctor? Interesting story.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    dennisn wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    As for me, I'd like to hear someone admit his true feelings behind all this hatred, and not the usual fluff they give out. I'm still betting on jealously toward a person who won something a few more times than you can tolerate. I guess I'm back to square one with the old "you can't handle it".

    You've demonstrated very little empathic ability, .....

    I couldn't agree more with that statement. It's intentional on my part. Now, shall we take a good look at the "empathic ability" of some of the posters on this forum that you seem to want to defend? What about BB or micron? Do you see much "empathic ability" there?
    Remember, with me, it's pretty much a case of you slam whomever you please and if I believe that the reason you do it is jealously, hatred, can't handle it, or whatever, I'm going to say so. I simply do not believe all of the goody goody, save cycling from evil,
    we care, talk that comes out of this subject.

    Having a similar viewpoint to someone on a particular topic is a long way from "defending" them dennis. You've been very keen in other threads to point out that nobody here knows LA, and so should refrain from commenting on his personality and motivations, yet you completely break that rule yourself when arguing with people you've exchanged no more than a few words with. Further than that, you chuck all of us that would like to see LA caught into one bucket, assuming we're all the same. There are plenty that have commented on this topic in a calm, measured and rational manner, but according to you we're all hate filled and jealous.

    For the record, I've never been a club rider, have never raced at any level, and have absolutely no desire to do so. Any riding I do other than commuting is purely for my own pleasure. I have nothing whatsoever to be jealous of LA for.

    I do, however, think he's a nasty piece of work who has had a corrupting influence on a sport I quite like and who has managed to profit immensely from cheating. That's reason enough for me to dislike him.
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  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    Moray Gub wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:

    What is it with forum posters these days so touchy......i bet you would like to slap me with your handbag !

    You really are a tedious troll, you do know that. don't you? If you're going to go down the abuse road then please try to think of something that's at least original or witty.

    All the time bearing in mind how sensitive you are of course, oh to have an opinion on your views......how dare we eh !. Listen buddy if you dont like what's said in here shoot over to something like the sewing bee forum i am sure you will find posters more to you liking there.

    I moderate one of the longest established and busiest forums for one of the biggest football teams in the world. I can take and hand out far more abuse than the admins on this forum would permit before they stepped in and banned someone. I'm not a sensitive soul, I made a serious point about not falsely ascribing viewpoints to people that have expressly stated their views already. But hey, go ahead anyway. It's far easier to debate with people if you can make up their views as you go along rather than actually listening to what they say.

    I'll leave you there, as I'm fairly sure this is boring the arse off everyone else.
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  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    I'll leave you there, as I'm fairly sure this is boring the ars* off everyone else.
    At last something all can agree on. Silly little flame wars are only entertaining for so long.
    I'm particularly disappointed in you, Dr No, as you have consistently been one of the few thoughtful & balanced posters on this topic. Just don't feed the trolls however much they wind you up.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    cajun_cyclist wrote:
    http://www.soccerway.com/news/2010/September/22/zidane-slams-author-of-drugs-claims-book/
    Zinedine Zidane hit out Wednesday at the author of a book which suggested he and several other members of France's 1998 World Cup winning squad may have been involved in doping practices.

    Former France team doctor Jean-Pierre Paclet published 'Implosion' in August, in which he claimed that "blood sample tests on several France players just before the 1998 World Cup revealed anomalies".

    The former doctor? Interesting story.

    Arsene Wenger is also on record as saying some of the players we brought in around that time who'd been playing it Italy had suspicious blood measurements.
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  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Oh dear, I see the pot stirring has strayed over the line into personal attacks once again.
    I would say stick to the facts, but since they are only hypothetical at this point.

    What we know: Steph McIlvein :P was in with the GJ for over 7 hours.
    Her lawyer was not present.
    Grand Jury testimony can only be disclosed by the witness.
    She said she stuck to her previous testimony.

    What we don't know: Whether she is lying about what she spent 7 hours talking about.

    Anyhow, everything you wanted to know about the Grand jury, but were afraid to ask:
    http://www.abanet.org/media/faqjury.html

    (Thanks to the US stalwarts of the CN clinic.)
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    bompington wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    I'll leave you there, as I'm fairly sure this is boring the ars* off everyone else.
    At last something all can agree on. Silly little flame wars are only entertaining for so long.
    I'm particularly disappointed in you, Dr No, as you have consistently been one of the few thoughtful & balanced posters on this topic. Just don't feed the trolls however much they wind you up.

    Thank you and sorry, it won't happen again, Sir!
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    I'll leave you there, as I'm fairly sure this is boring the ars* off everyone else.
    At last something all can agree on. Silly little flame wars are only entertaining for so long.
    I'm particularly disappointed in you, Dr No, as you have consistently been one of the few thoughtful & balanced posters on this topic. Just don't feed the trolls however much they wind you up.

    Thank you and sorry, it won't happen again, Sir!
    This hurts me more than it hurts you, now bend over....
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    bompington wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    I'll leave you there, as I'm fairly sure this is boring the ars* off everyone else.
    At last something all can agree on. Silly little flame wars are only entertaining for so long.
    I'm particularly disappointed in you, Dr No, as you have consistently been one of the few thoughtful & balanced posters on this topic. Just don't feed the trolls however much they wind you up.

    Thank you and sorry, it won't happen again, Sir!
    This hurts me more than it hurts you, now bend over....

    You're in the wrong place, this is Pro Race, not the S&M chat page.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    As for me, I'd like to hear someone admit his true feelings behind all this hatred, and not the usual fluff they give out. I'm still betting on jealously toward a person who won something a few more times than you can tolerate. I guess I'm back to square one with the old "you can't handle it".

    You've demonstrated very little empathic ability, .....

    I couldn't agree more with that statement. It's intentional on my part. Now, shall we take a good look at the "empathic ability" of some of the posters on this forum that you seem to want to defend? What about BB or micron? Do you see much "empathic ability" there?
    Remember, with me, it's pretty much a case of you slam whomever you please and if I believe that the reason you do it is jealously, hatred, can't handle it, or whatever, I'm going to say so. I simply do not believe all of the goody goody, save cycling from evil,
    we care, talk that comes out of this subject.



    I do, however, think he's a nasty piece of work who has had a corrupting influence on a sport I quite like and who has managed to profit immensely from cheating. That's reason enough for me to dislike him.

    And IF I think that you are a nasty piece of work for whatever reason, well, I guess that's good enough for me to also write in about and tell others.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    [q

    I moderate one of the longest established and busiest forums for one of the biggest football teams in the world. I can take and hand out far more abuse than the admins on this forum would permit before they stepped in and banned someone. I'm not a sensitive soul, I made a serious point about not falsely ascribing viewpoints to people that have expressly stated their views already. But hey, go ahead anyway. It's far easier to debate with people if you can make up their views as you go along rather than actually listening to what they say.

    I'll leave you there, as I'm fairly sure this is boring the ars* off everyone else.

    If you express a view and its interpreted a certain way as Dennis and i have done well then thats what forums are all about, given that you moderate on a sooper dooper all singing and dancing football forum i am surprised that you are so sensitive to others opinions of your views.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    dennisn wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    As for me, I'd like to hear someone admit his true feelings behind all this hatred, and not the usual fluff they give out. I'm still betting on jealously toward a person who won something a few more times than you can tolerate. I guess I'm back to square one with the old "you can't handle it".

    You've demonstrated very little empathic ability, .....

    I couldn't agree more with that statement. It's intentional on my part. Now, shall we take a good look at the "empathic ability" of some of the posters on this forum that you seem to want to defend? What about BB or micron? Do you see much "empathic ability" there?
    Remember, with me, it's pretty much a case of you slam whomever you please and if I believe that the reason you do it is jealously, hatred, can't handle it, or whatever, I'm going to say so. I simply do not believe all of the goody goody, save cycling from evil,
    we care, talk that comes out of this subject.



    I do, however, think he's a nasty piece of work who has had a corrupting influence on a sport I quite like and who has managed to profit immensely from cheating. That's reason enough for me to dislike him.

    And IF I think that you are a nasty piece of work for whatever reason, well, I guess that's good enough for me to also write in about and tell others.


    But the thing is i though if you did that and someone expressed a view on that would you then fling the toys out of the pram ?
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    Moray Gub wrote:
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    I’m going to try and make sense of your post piece by piece, in an effort to find out what is going on inside the world of Dennisn:

    []

    Dennis seems get to you all worked up


    chill its just an opinion that differs from yours live with it.

    You're of course right... it is futile to get wound up on the internet and have childish arguments on forums... I won't do it again!

    Oh, look everyone, I spent my lunch hour painting a picture... I call it Dennis is cracking up!

    HopperschnabelPicture_1.jpg

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    @No tA Doctor

    "I moderate one of the longest established and busiest forums for one of the biggest football teams in the world"

    "Arsene Wenger is also on record"

    Say it ain't so Joe? Tell me I'm wrong, and you really are the decent bloke you seem?
  • cajun_cyclist
    cajun_cyclist Posts: 493
    dougzz wrote:
    @No tA Doctor

    "I moderate one of the longest established and busiest forums for one of the biggest football teams in the world"

    "Arsene Wenger is also on record"

    Say it ain't so Joe? Tell me I'm wrong, and you really are the decent bloke you seem?

    :lol: Exactly what this thread needed, some humour. At times, this or these threads veer off topic and then sometimes when people get in a spat, it really is a bit difficult to see or at least feel the heat going on. Whatever.

    Especially since the LA story seems to have picked up some momentum again.

    A Hall of Fame Post
  • cajun_cyclist
    cajun_cyclist Posts: 493
    This is something that has puzzled me when you read about the Simpson era when (presumably) use of amphetamines was rife: I would have thought that's it's not so much the case that it makes you better at racing, more that it makes you *feel* better at racing (i.e. you're in no better physical shape than before, but you feel perkier and less fatigued). I can see how that's still an advantage in a one-day race, but in a three-week stage race I would have thought constantly dosing yourself with speed would lead you into a sleep-deprived paranoid mess, hardly ideal.- gattocattivo

    Right, let alone a mega-bonk, in retrospect, even if you are young and with a lot of vigor like Tom Simpson must have been, mixing it with alcohol sadly sounds like a recipe for disaster. He also drank pastis and something else and on top of amphetamines...
    My understanding is this isn't the case Chef. EPO increases the bodies ability to produce red blood cells, and each person reacts differently to it. So it's fairer to say that if the whole field were using EPO the winner is the person who's body reacts the most to it. So it doesn't mean it was a level playing field even if the entire peloton were on it.- dougzz

    Right, in ways this sounds attractive and as I've heard to, living at a high elevation can give you more red blood cells, Paula Radcliffe and many world class runners have trained at High altitude I guess for this exact reason.

    But at least with EPO, running the risk of having thick blood would definitely deter me from entertaining thoughts of using it. In fact, many cyclists have died this way and we all have heard the stories of these cyclists supposedly having to get up in the middle of the night to exercise so there blood does not thicken up too much.

    As much as I'm a 'casual fan' of football and say Zidane himself, Operation Puerco (Puerto :? ) came up and early reports stated well known footballers went to see Dr. Fuentes, these rumours thought to be later largely debunked but there is always a bit of leeway for debate concerning that and the largely stellar performance of the French team at the 2006 World Cup. Perhaps just coincidence.

    Now, this is a long post, sorry, but I brought out this Hinault interview before.

    http://oceanpark.com/~allard/bicycle/19 ... nault.html

    How much is blood doping cheating??

    What if you are using your own blood? You stored it in March say and use it in July?? Cheating all the same?

    What is your position in the face of statements by Moser, who made use this spring of blood transfusions?

    Moser made use of autotransfusion. So he was playing with his own blood. He did no more no less that the Finnish athletes, Lasse Viren and the others. It suffices to take some of ones own blood during the spring when it is rich, hyperoxygenated, and to reinject it when one is fatigued. Is that really doping? Maybe not, except if the blood is placed into a machine to reoxygenate it to the maximum.

    Interesting gray area to contemplate.

    How about Christophe Bassons, a bit of a Saint in Walsh's "From Lance to Landis", did we know this about him? From the same link.
    What do you think about the importance which was given to Bassons abandoning?

    Bassons was wrong to say that he was clean and the others were dirty. He himself sleeps in a hyperbaric chamber. Like for Moser. Doping starts there, even if oxygen is completely natural.

    As far as Hinault being clean, he might have been another one.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    cajun_cyclist wrote:
    As much as I'm a 'casual fan' of football and say Zidane himself, Operation Puerco (Puerto :? ) came up and early reports stated well known footballers went to see Dr. Fuentes, these rumours thought to be later largely debunked but there is always a bit of leeway for debate concerning that and the largely stellar performance of the French team at the 2006 World Cup. Perhaps just coincidence.

    When have these football and other sports rumours about Puerto been debunked. So far the only names in the public domain are cyclists despite this being linked to football, tennis and other sports. I always thought the only reason no other sports stars names were in the public domain was because Real and Barca had more money to bring in better lawyers

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