NY Times - Cyclists are said to back claims Armstrong doped

dave_1

dougzz wrote:

Does it ever cross your (Denis, Moray, Dave) mind that LA's fraud has done more to damage cycling than any opinionated forum poster ever could. The constant Team LA attacks against the persons presenting the considerable evidence against his having been a clean rider are only fuel for the flames, there is never a proper rebuttal of the evidence, only personal attacks against those presenting it.

The whole aspect of 'never tested positive' has been done to death, but how many admitted cheats passed 10's of dope controls, the tests are of limited value, that's clear.

If by having an opinion that is different to yours I'm a Lance obsessed nutter then I'll just have to live with that.

yeah whatever... 5 years into the past and counting...you broken records will surely burnout sometime

dennisn

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I see a the psychological mind games continue.
Here we have the 3 truly "obsessive"forum individuals lobbing their pet word,
like a verbal stun grenade at anybody who dares to post anything negative
about the object of their "obsession".
It doesn't look as if it is silencing anyone.

Still, it makes a bit of a change from the old "hater" manta.

Just goes to show how little either side has to contribute to this stagnated debate.

It could be a long winter, at this rate.

I don't think it will all that long a Winter for me, but for those of you waiting for word that LA has been thrown into a deep, dark hole, never to return, I think it's going to be a long Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter again, and so on for some time to come. Add to that the fact that IF something does come of all this it won't be enough to satisfy the cravings of all the people who want the worst for him. Slap on the wrist at best. Then where will you be? Still full of anger at someone you THINK you know all about.

ratsbeyfus

Thanks Dennisn for your considered input to the debate. Still having problem with the Caps-lock I see, or is typing every UMPTEENTH word in CAPITALS a way of venting your spleen?

Seriously... you manage to keep your cool on other forums, but rant away like a loony whenever LA's name is mentioned. And then you freely admit that you hardly ever read any of the stuff linked to. A very confusing stance. What on earth is going on?

dennisn

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Thanks Dennisn for your considered input to the debate. Still having problem with the Caps-lock I see, or is typing every UMPTEENTH word in CAPITALS a way of venting your spleen?

Seriously... you manage to keep your cool on other forums, but rant away like a loony whenever LA's name is mentioned. And then you freely admit that you hardly ever read any of the stuff linked to. A very confusing stance. What on earth is going on?

OK, I'll try and explain it again. TIt for tat. You rant and badmouth whomever you please.
Particularly LA. You seem to think there is nothing wrong with that. I seem to think that there is nothing wrong with me ranting and badmouthing you. You can do it to whomever, yet you yourself are off limits?????
Well, are you off limits???? And why???

ratsbeyfus

dennisn wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Thanks Dennisn for your considered input to the debate. Still having problem with the Caps-lock I see, or is typing every UMPTEENTH word in CAPITALS a way of venting your spleen?

Seriously... you manage to keep your cool on other forums, but rant away like a loony whenever LA's name is mentioned. And then you freely admit that you hardly ever read any of the stuff linked to. A very confusing stance. What on earth is going on?

OK, I'll try and explain it again. TIt for tat. You rant and badmouth whomever you please.
Particularly LA. You seem to think there is nothing wrong with that. I seem to think that there is nothing wrong with me ranting and badmouthing you. You can do it to whomever, yet you yourself are off limits?????
Well, are you off limits???? And why???

I'm not off limits Dennisn... you can rant and 'bad-mouth' me as much as you like if it makes you happy. I hope you won't mind me posting links to stories about LA on a thread about him on a cycling forum (strange as that may sound).

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I see a the psychological mind games continue.
Here we have the 3 truly "obsessive"forum individuals lobbing their pet word,
like a verbal stun grenade at anybody who dares to post anything negative
about the object of their "obsession".
It doesn't look as if it is silencing anyone.

Still, it makes a bit of a change from the old "hater" manta.

Just goes to show how little either side has to contribute to this stagnated debate.

It could be a long winter, at this rate.

Note again the tactic being used here is the same as previously and that is basically accuse others of obsession while all along you are up there with the best or worst (depending on your viewpoint) of them in the obsession stakes. As Dennisn says its gonna be a long wait for you and others until your obsessive juices are satisfied. Meanwhile back in the world of professional cycling...............

moray_gub

ratsbeyfus wrote:

dennisn wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Thanks Dennisn for your considered input to the debate. Still having problem with the Caps-lock I see, or is typing every UMPTEENTH word in CAPITALS a way of venting your spleen?

Seriously... you manage to keep your cool on other forums, but rant away like a loony whenever LA's name is mentioned. And then you freely admit that you hardly ever read any of the stuff linked to. A very confusing stance. What on earth is going on?

OK, I'll try and explain it again. TIt for tat. You rant and badmouth whomever you please.
Particularly LA. You seem to think there is nothing wrong with that. I seem to think that there is nothing wrong with me ranting and badmouthing you. You can do it to whomever, yet you yourself are off limits?????
Well, are you off limits???? And why???

I'm not off limits Dennisn... you can rant and 'bad-mouth' me as much as you like if it makes you happy. I hope you won't mind me posting links to stories about LA on a thread about him on a cycling forum (strange as that may sound).

All Dennisn did was point out the somewhat pathetic read it and weep comment ,its as if that you have this vision in your head of people flinging themselves off bridges and the like at the content of your links. Sorry mate but at the end of the day its a pro cyclist being investigated nothing more nothing less.

ratsbeyfus

Moray Gub wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

dennisn wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Thanks Dennisn for your considered input to the debate. Still having problem with the Caps-lock I see, or is typing every UMPTEENTH word in CAPITALS a way of venting your spleen?

Seriously... you manage to keep your cool on other forums, but rant away like a loony whenever LA's name is mentioned. And then you freely admit that you hardly ever read any of the stuff linked to. A very confusing stance. What on earth is going on?

OK, I'll try and explain it again. TIt for tat. You rant and badmouth whomever you please.
Particularly LA. You seem to think there is nothing wrong with that. I seem to think that there is nothing wrong with me ranting and badmouthing you. You can do it to whomever, yet you yourself are off limits?????
Well, are you off limits???? And why???

I'm not off limits Dennisn... you can rant and 'bad-mouth' me as much as you like if it makes you happy. I hope you won't mind me posting links to stories about LA on a thread about him on a cycling forum (strange as that may sound).

All Dennisn did was point out the somewhat pathetic read it and weep comment ,its as if that you have this vision in your head of people flinging themselves off bridges and the like at the content of your links. Sorry mate but at the end of the day its a pro cyclist being investigated nothing more nothing less.

The 'read it and weep fanboys' comment was made in jest... I'm sorry it hurt your feelings. I know that previously you posted saying that you failed to see the humour in the 'Daily Mash' articles, so I guess we both have a different sense of humour. I genuinely find it funny that LA may be getting some comeback for his years of doping. I'm not suggesting that you, or any other fans are going to throw themselves off a bridge (heaven forbid), but you do seem very touchy about the whole thing Moray... have you read the article linked to? You've made it clear what you think about me... but what do you think about LA? After all that is what the forum is about.

dougzz

Dave_1 wrote:

yeah whatever... 5 years into the past and counting...you broken records will surely burnout sometime

So that's OK then? What if it was 3 years ago, or maybe 6 months, what exactly if the time limit?

dennisn

Moray Gub wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

dennisn wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

Thanks Dennisn for your considered input to the debate. Still having problem with the Caps-lock I see, or is typing every UMPTEENTH word in CAPITALS a way of venting your spleen?

Seriously... you manage to keep your cool on other forums, but rant away like a loony whenever LA's name is mentioned. And then you freely admit that you hardly ever read any of the stuff linked to. A very confusing stance. What on earth is going on?

OK, I'll try and explain it again. TIt for tat. You rant and badmouth whomever you please.
Particularly LA. You seem to think there is nothing wrong with that. I seem to think that there is nothing wrong with me ranting and badmouthing you. You can do it to whomever, yet you yourself are off limits?????
Well, are you off limits???? And why???

I'm not off limits Dennisn... you can rant and 'bad-mouth' me as much as you like if it makes you happy. I hope you won't mind me posting links to stories about LA on a thread about him on a cycling forum (strange as that may sound).

All Dennisn did was point out the somewhat pathetic read it and weep comment ,its as if that you have this vision in your head of people flinging themselves off bridges and the like at the content of your links. Sorry mate but at the end of the day its a pro cyclist being investigated nothing more nothing less.

+1 for the nothing more, nothing less. I still can't quite fathom why some people get so
"involved"(for lack of a better word) in LA's life. What does it have to do with them?
For me it's a curiouity, but others seem completely outraged, as if the man shot their dog.
How long can you carry whatever grudge it is you're carrying? And why?

ratsbeyfus

Oh well... if you won't join in on the debate it is time to roll out the pics again:

dougzz

Until he comes clean. Truth and Reconciliation. Without the truth there can be no forgetting the past. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about doping or any other aspect of life. If you seek to hide the truth the story will never go away. That's just the way it is.

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

Note again the tactic being used here is the same as previously and that is basically accuse others of obsession while all along you are up there with the best or worst (depending on your viewpoint) of them in the obsession stakes. As Dennisn says its gonna be a long wait for you and others until your obsessive juices are satisfied. Meanwhile back in the world of professional cycling...............

Cobblers.
My "obsession" is a grand total of 3 posts, within 2 days of the story breaking and a further 2 posts regarding posters playing the man, not the debate.
Today, a further post, on those seeking to stigmatise (silence) fellow posters, by labelling them obsessionists.

Me? I've been following Vuelta, TOP, various Italian and Belgian races, plus the U23 European track championships.

Meanwhile back in the world of pro cycling, where can I find Dennis?

Stop giving threads like this, the "mouth to mouth" treatment and maybe the term "obsession" can really be put to bed..

dennisn

dougzz wrote:

Until he comes clean. Truth and Reconciliation. Without the truth there can be no forgetting the past. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about doping or any other aspect of life. If you seek to hide the truth the story will never go away. That's just the way it is.

What a load of crap. Were you really able to type that with a straight face?

moray_gub

ratsbeyfus wrote:

The 'read it and weep fanboys' comment was made in jest... I'm sorry it hurt your feelings. I know that previously you posted saying that you failed to see the humour in the 'Daily Mash' articles, so I guess we both have a different sense of humour. I genuinely find it funny that LA may be getting some comeback for his years of doping. I'm not suggesting that you, or any other fans are going to throw themselves off a bridge (heaven forbid), but you do seem very touchy about the whole thing Moray... have you read the article linked to? You've made it clear what you think about me... but what do you think about LA? After all that is what the forum is about.

Well first off i like humour as much as the next man but things like Daily Mash are far removed from good humour. As for the LA links a lot of it is covering old ground which has been rehashed to death and is hardly offering anything new, most of this LA story so far is unnamed sources,sources close to so and so it just goes on and on with nothing really concrete . Maybe when there is something worthwhile to link to it will be worth reading until then dont get too upset about it all its just a pro cyclist under investigation nobody has died.

moray_gub

dennisn wrote:

dougzz wrote:

Until he comes clean. Truth and Reconciliation. Without the truth there can be no forgetting the past. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about doping or any other aspect of life. If you seek to hide the truth the story will never go away. That's just the way it is.

What a load of crap. Were you really able to type that with a straight face?

Hey maybe Dougzz can start a campaign to form a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate the taking of perfomance enhancing drugs by a US based cycling team, after all we have seen how effective these commisions can be when investigating human rights violations and the like.

ratsbeyfus

Moray Gub wrote:

ratsbeyfus wrote:

The 'read it and weep fanboys' comment was made in jest... I'm sorry it hurt your feelings. I know that previously you posted saying that you failed to see the humour in the 'Daily Mash' articles, so I guess we both have a different sense of humour. I genuinely find it funny that LA may be getting some comeback for his years of doping. I'm not suggesting that you, or any other fans are going to throw themselves off a bridge (heaven forbid), but you do seem very touchy about the whole thing Moray... have you read the article linked to? You've made it clear what you think about me... but what do you think about LA? After all that is what the forum is about.

Well first off i like humour as much as the next man but things like Daily Mash are far removed from good humour. As for the LA links a lot of it is covering old ground which has been rehashed to death and is hardly offering anything new, most of this LA story so far is unnamed sources,sources close to so and so it just goes on and on with nothing really concrete . Maybe when there is something worthwhile to link to it will be worth reading until then dont get too upset about it all its just a pro cyclist under investigation nobody has died.

I thought the link was interesting and worthwhile as it seems to go some way to corroborating Betsy Andreau's assertion that there was a hospital bed 'confession' to doping by LA (which was also witnessed by McIlvain, but denied under oath). Of course the story is old to all those that have read about LA, but it is just another piece in the jigsaw which suggests that David Walsh was not far off the mark in his books. The tapes of Mcilvain may come from unamed sources (I don't know where they come from to be honest) but as far as I know their authenticity is not questioned, and strongly suggest that Mcilvain lied when giving her deposition in the SCA case.

dougzz

dennisn wrote:

dougzz wrote:

Until he comes clean. Truth and Reconciliation. Without the truth there can be no forgetting the past. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about doping or any other aspect of life. If you seek to hide the truth the story will never go away. That's just the way it is.

What a load of crap. Were you really able to type that with a straight face?

Thank you for that considered analysis, I'll take it on board and rethink my position. I always find your postings so concise, accurate and packed with thought provoking content. You're a credit to this forum.

dougzz

Moray Gub wrote:

dennisn wrote:

dougzz wrote:

Until he comes clean. Truth and Reconciliation. Without the truth there can be no forgetting the past. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about doping or any other aspect of life. If you seek to hide the truth the story will never go away. That's just the way it is.

What a load of crap. Were you really able to type that with a straight face?

Hey maybe Dougzz can start a campaign to form a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate the taking of perfomance enhancing drugs by a US based cycling team, after all we have seen how effective these commisions can be when investigating human rights violations and the like.

I didn't suggest we needed a commission, you mentioned the word. I said that without the truth the story will never go away. Do you read the posts you criticise or just take a position based on your attitude to the poster?

moray_gub

dougzz wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

dennisn wrote:

dougzz wrote:

Until he comes clean. Truth and Reconciliation. Without the truth there can be no forgetting the past. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about doping or any other aspect of life. If you seek to hide the truth the story will never go away. That's just the way it is.

What a load of crap. Were you really able to type that with a straight face?

Hey maybe Dougzz can start a campaign to form a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate the taking of perfomance enhancing drugs by a US based cycling team, after all we have seen how effective these commisions can be when investigating human rights violations and the like.

I didn't suggest we needed a commission, you mentioned the word. I said that without the truth the story will never go away. Do you read the posts you criticise or just take a position based on your attitude to the poster?

When you start to come out phrases such as truth and reconcilliation in relation to this then for me you have lost the plot.

dougzz

Moray Gub wrote:

When you start to come out phrases such as truth and reconcilliation in relation to this then for me you have lost the plot.

Is that so. Most of your posts regarding our friend Lance make it clear you're not a big fan of the truth, that's for sure.

moray_gub

dougzz wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

When you start to come out phrases such as truth and reconcilliation in relation to this then for me you have lost the plot.

Is that so. Most of your posts regarding our friend Lance make it clear you're not a big fan of the truth, that's for sure.

Who made you the judge on what is the truth and what is not the truth regarding Lance ? Or maybe this is just another case of you pontifcating on something you dont really know much about.

dave_1

dougzz wrote:

dennisn wrote:

dougzz wrote:

Until he comes clean. Truth and Reconciliation. Without the truth there can be no forgetting the past. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about doping or any other aspect of life. If you seek to hide the truth the story will never go away. That's just the way it is.

What a load of crap. Were you really able to type that with a straight face?

Thank you for that considered analysis, I'll take it on board and rethink my position. I always find your postings so concise, accurate and packed with thought provoking content. You're a credit to this forum.

Many of us can accept it is a fact of life that some people are just welll...much better than others at a sport or a job or whatever. That's life. Accept your lot and stop whinging

BikingBernie

Dave_1 wrote:

Many of us can accept it is a fact of life that some people are just welll...much better than others at a sport or a job or whatever. That's life.

It is also a 'fact of life' that many people 'succeed' not because they are better than others, but because they cheat the system, or because they are prepared to bully and intimidate their rivals, or conspire in corruption, and in so doing deny those who are naturally better than them the rewards they deserve.

In fact Armstrong is a perfect illustration of how the concept of 'meritocracy' is very often a total sham..

dave_1

BikingBernie wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Many of us can accept it is a fact of life that some people are just welll...much better than others at a sport or a job or whatever. That's life.

It is also a 'fact of life' that many people 'succeed' not because they are better than others, but because they cheat the system, or because they are prepared to bully and intimidate their rivals, and in so doing deny those who are naturally better than them the rewards they deserve.

and for sure your whinging is cause you can't accept your lot and must see others fail to make you feel better!

micron

I think a lot of people would be prepared to accept that Armstrong was just 'a lot better' if, like Fignon & Lemond of the previous generation, he'd demonstrated that real superiority in Grand Tours from the very start of his career. But he didn't. Sure he was talented and made the best of what he had but nobody was looking at him and saying he was a potential 7 time Tour de France winner - the 'so much better in a GT ' factor that was apparent in Fignon and Lemond simply wasn't there in Armstrong for the first half of his career.

RichN95.

micron wrote:

I think a lot of people would be prepared to accept that Armstrong was just 'a lot better' if, like Fignon & Lemond of the previous generation, he'd demonstrated that real superiority in Grand Tours from the very start of his career. But he didn't. Sure he was talented and made the best of what he had but nobody was looking at him and saying he was a potential 7 time Tour de France winner - the 'so much better in a GT ' factor that was apparent in Fignon and Lemond simply wasn't there in Armstrong for the first half of his career.

Here's the problem with that argument is that when Armstrong was 23 (the age that Fignon/LeMond first did the Tour) it was 1995 and the peloton was drenched with EPO.

The argument that he only became a contender because of doping only works if he was clean (or far cleaner) in 1995. Racing against 60%ers.

Had he entered the sport in same circumstances as Lemond/Fignon, then maybe he would have shown the same early superiority.

micron

The fact that Armstrong didn't win a GT or look like doing so until halfway through his career doesn't mean he wasn't doping throughout it - it's quite possible that the way he doped evolved (interesting that the performance spike coincides neatly with the advent of Dr Ferrari as preparatore)

sherer

RichN95 wrote:

micron wrote:

I think a lot of people would be prepared to accept that Armstrong was just 'a lot better' if, like Fignon & Lemond of the previous generation, he'd demonstrated that real superiority in Grand Tours from the very start of his career. But he didn't. Sure he was talented and made the best of what he had but nobody was looking at him and saying he was a potential 7 time Tour de France winner - the 'so much better in a GT ' factor that was apparent in Fignon and Lemond simply wasn't there in Armstrong for the first half of his career.

Here's the problem with that argument is that when Armstrong was 23 (the age that Fignon/LeMond first did the Tour) it was 1995 and the peloton was drenched with EPO.

The argument that he only became a contender because of doping only works if he was clean (or far cleaner) in 1995. Racing against 60%ers.

Had he entered the sport in same circumstances as Lemond/Fignon, then maybe he would have shown the same early superiority.

never had any put it that way before. I guess we never will know as we can't remove the dope from the whole peloton.

There are rumours that even back in the Motorola days he was a heavy drug user too just maybe not on the right stuff.

If he was clean in his entire career then the hospital bed confession wouldn't have happened

No_Ta_Doctor

Some of my personal dislike of LA is that together with Ferrari he seems to have professionalised doping. Sure everyone else was at it, but it was a bit of an amateurish affair in comparison. At the heart of what they were doing is a deep cynicism that is alien to what the best in cycling, or any sport, has to offer. In football terms it's the difference between trying to get away with a sneaky handball and fixing the match. That's why I can see past Maradona's Hand of God and acclaim him as a sporting giant but I can't do the same with LA.

On a different note, I can understand - though disagree with - those that think LA getting caught would be bad for cycling, but for the life of me I can't see how anyone of even moderate intelligence and an objective, impartial mind, could possibly examine the wealth of evidence out there re LA and not come to the conclusion that he was doped to his eyeballs. I'm going to do my best to avoid arguing with them as it's entirely futile. I came to largely the same conclusion about arguing with creationists....