NY Times - Cyclists are said to back claims Armstrong doped

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  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    the hospital confession has been mentioned before, I even raised it in a thread awhile ago.

    It's a matter of who you believe, those who have a stake in LA like Carmichael and Oakley or the Andreu's.

    The only thing I find strange about the whole confession story is everyman and his dog seemed to be in the room and I can't see any doctor asking this question in front of witnesses, although it was meant to be some sort of intern
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    dennisn wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    More stuff

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lan ... 8173.story?

    Sounds like Betsy has some stuff Bernie didn't have in his archive....

    Whoa, something Bernie didn't have in his archive????
    Now THAT'S what I call NEWS.

    So DENNIS, what do you thiNk... IS la fArked? (notice I'm asking you what you ThInk, noT what you know).

    (Apologies for tHe cAps - my keyboard seems to Have A mind of its own!)

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    iainf72 wrote:
    More stuff

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lan ... 8173.story?

    Sounds like Betsy has some stuff Bernie didn't have in his archive....
    Don't kid yourself as this is only going down a well trodden path.
    It might help the Feds to get leverage to start down another path, I hope.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Voluntary confession on ansaphone? That has to be problematic for Daly, especially as it corroborates the Lemond/McIlvain tape - McIlvain appears to have lied under oath, oops
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    More stuff

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lan ... 8173.story?

    Sounds like Betsy has some stuff Bernie didn't have in his archive....

    Whoa, something Bernie didn't have in his archive????
    Now THAT'S what I call NEWS.

    So DENNIS, what do you thiNk... IS la fArked? (notice I'm asking you what you ThInk, noT what you know).

    I'll be honest and say I'm not following it all that close. I will say that it seems everyone sort of thinks that the US Postal misuse of public funds(possibly) is the really big whammy
    in this whole thing. I have my doubts that it can be proven that he was the source of everything that happened(if anything happened). From the posting's on this forum it sounds like some people are labeling him some mafia boss(for lack of better words).
    FWIW I just don't see whomever coming up with enough to convict(if any of this goes to some sort of trial). I think it's possible though for him to be somewhat farked, reputation wise, even if this whole thing sort of stalls out and dies. Yet with some good PR people
    and the like, anyones reputation can make a comeback. If politicians can do it, anyone can. Even if LA suffers the worst case scenario I doubt you've heard the last of him.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    If this is all about the USPS misuse of public money then the hospital confession whether true or false is irrelevant as he was with Motorola at the time then moving to Cofidis, not sure who exactly he was contracted to at the time.

    The only thing it will establish is if LA was a doper or not.

    I do have to say the LA \ Carmichael argument of what was said seems a bit false to me too. Some doctors come in and then ask LA to tell them what drugs they are giving him. Why bother to check his charts and medical records which would be correct when you can ask someone with no medical knowledge
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    dennisn wrote:
    If politicians can do it, anyone can. Even if LA suffers the worst case scenario I doubt you've heard the last of him.
    That's where we want him - The good ole US of A .
    Happily that is the battleground now that you are talking about with your scenario.
    Hopefully when all the shite settles down then we won't hear anymore of the Freak and I still maintain he is a bum. (since 1994)
    It's all now in the US domain for you to deal with and when he takes up the Political career that he so well suited to then he will become a very big yawn to us in Europe. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    So good luck with your hero and good riddance.
    The last thought that I dread is that Obama makes him a US ambassador somewhere in Europe.

    One day even Paul Cuthbert will say, "I remember that guy as he was an inspiration to me when I was a kid but I soon got over it"
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    dennisn wrote:
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    More stuff

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lan ... 8173.story?

    Sounds like Betsy has some stuff Bernie didn't have in his archive....

    Whoa, something Bernie didn't have in his archive????
    Now THAT'S what I call NEWS.

    So DENNIS, what do you thiNk... IS la fArked? (notice I'm asking you what you ThInk, noT what you know).

    I'll be honest and say I'm not following it all that close. I will say that it seems everyone sort of thinks that the US Postal misuse of public funds(possibly) is the really big whammy
    in this whole thing. I have my doubts that it can be proven that he was the source of everything that happened(if anything happened). From the posting's on this forum it sounds like some people are labeling him some mafia boss(for lack of better words).
    FWIW I just don't see whomever coming up with enough to convict(if any of this goes to some sort of trial). I think it's possible though for him to be somewhat farked, reputation wise, even if this whole thing sort of stalls out and dies. Yet with some good PR people
    and the like, anyones reputation can make a comeback. If politicians can do it, anyone can. Even if LA suffers the worst case scenario I doubt you've heard the last of him.

    Hey... we pretty much agree! I think most people who are interested happily agree/reluctantly accept that LA probably doped. LA may get a bit of heat from the FED's, but I doubt if they will prove unequivocally that LA doped. At the end of it all, to the man on the street who takes a passing interest in cycling, he'll still be seen as the greatest cyclist that ever lived. I'd love him to 'fess up a la the onion article, but I just can't see it happening. I think the truth will come out eventually, but by the time it does LA will be long retired and most cycling fans will be past caring.

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    More stuff

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lan ... 8173.story?

    Sounds like Betsy has some stuff Bernie didn't have in his archive....

    Whoa, something Bernie didn't have in his archive????
    Now THAT'S what I call NEWS.

    So DENNIS, what do you thiNk... IS la fArked? (notice I'm asking you what you ThInk, noT what you know).

    I'll be honest and say I'm not following it all that close. I will say that it seems everyone sort of thinks that the US Postal misuse of public funds(possibly) is the really big whammy
    in this whole thing. I have my doubts that it can be proven that he was the source of everything that happened(if anything happened). From the posting's on this forum it sounds like some people are labeling him some mafia boss(for lack of better words).
    FWIW I just don't see whomever coming up with enough to convict(if any of this goes to some sort of trial). I think it's possible though for him to be somewhat farked, reputation wise, even if this whole thing sort of stalls out and dies. Yet with some good PR people
    and the like, anyones reputation can make a comeback. If politicians can do it, anyone can. Even if LA suffers the worst case scenario I doubt you've heard the last of him.

    Hey... we pretty much agree! I think most people who are interested happily agree/reluctantly accept that LA probably doped. LA may get a bit of heat from the FED's, but I doubt if they will prove unequivocally that LA doped. At the end of it all, to the man on the street who takes a passing interest in cycling, he'll still be seen as the greatest cyclist that ever lived. I'd love him to 'fess up a la the onion article, but I just can't see it happening. I think the truth will come out eventually, but by the time it does LA will be long retired and most cycling fans will be past caring.

    All good points. I would say though that I doubt that the fed's are much interested in whether he doped or not. If the fed's were looking at me for racketeering, embezzelment, and the like, I doubt they would pursue the fact that I smoked a few joints and sold a bag of pot or two. I see them looking at whether he doped or not as small potatoes in the big scheme of things that they are dealing with. Their priorities are bigger than that.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    dennisn wrote:
    All good points. I would say though that I doubt that the fed's are much interested in whether he doped or not. If the fed's were looking at me for racketeering, embezzlement, and the like, I doubt they would pursue the fact that I smoked a few joints and sold a bag of pot or two. I see them looking at whether he doped or not as small potatoes in the big scheme of things that they are dealing with. Their priorities are bigger than that.
    If they can prove he is a lying bastard (er, remember married parents) that will be more than half way of satisfaction for us.
    The other half would put him in the category of a Floyd Landis.
    That will do nicely.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    I'm starting to hope he gets away with it completely scott free, just so I can watch various cycling forums explode in rabid indignation.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    deejay wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    All good points. I would say though that I doubt that the fed's are much interested in whether he doped or not. If the fed's were looking at me for racketeering, embezzlement, and the like, I doubt they would pursue the fact that I smoked a few joints and sold a bag of pot or two. I see them looking at whether he doped or not as small potatoes in the big scheme of things that they are dealing with. Their priorities are bigger than that.
    If they can prove he is a lying bastard (er, remember married parents) that will be more than half way of satisfaction for us.
    The other half would put him in the category of a Floyd Landis.
    That will do nicely.


    Whatever makes you happy. :wink::wink:
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    RichN95 wrote:
    I'm starting to hope he gets away with it completely scott free, just so I can watch various cycling forums explode in rabid indignation.


    Well put. That would be interesting. I kind of get the impression though that this forum, as an example, only really has a few dozen people (at best) who are really outraged about LA.
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    dennisn wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    I'm starting to hope he gets away with it completely scott free, just so I can watch various cycling forums explode in rabid indignation.


    Well put. That would be interesting. I kind of get the impression though that this forum, as an example, only really has a few dozen people (at best) who are really outraged about LA.

    And about half a dozen who are outraged at people being outraged at LA
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    dennisn wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    I'm starting to hope he gets away with it completely scott free, just so I can watch various cycling forums explode in rabid indignation.

    Well put. That would be interesting. I kind of get the impression though that this forum, as an example, only really has a few dozen people (at best) who are really outraged about LA.

    So, forget about getting to the truth, whatever it may be. Forget about judicial process and serving justice.
    Better to hope that regardless of whether he may be guilty, he gets off, just to wind up a handful of folks (according to the small world of Dennis) on a cycling forum?

    Glad to see you boys have got your priorities sorted.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Regardless of a few people on the internet, the broad opinion in the media and general public has changed. Cycling fans might be annoyed that he cheated but others will probably shrug.

    That's probably why Armstrong and his advisors aren't going for big denials because if he's busted, then the "liar/purjury" tag is potentially more damaging than the "secret EPO user" story, especially given the media role Armstrong occupies.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Blazing Saddles wrote:

    So, forget about getting to the truth, whatever it may be. Forget about judicial process and serving justice.
    Better to hope that regardless of whether he may be guilty, he gets off, just to wind up a handful of folks (according to the small world of Dennis) on a cycling forum?

    Glad to see you boys have got your priorities sorted.

    What happens to him will have absolutely no effect on my life or anyone I know. Plenty of people in the world get away with far worse crimes but there's no anger directed towards them. And where's the anger directed towards all the other dopers from the 90s and 00s, some of whom are held up as favourites by the same people who demonise Armstrong?

    The rage of some people is completely out of proportion to the crime. And some of those people are really unpleasant (no-one here though, not even BB). And frankly I'd find it funny if he gets away with it.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Gazzaputt
    Gazzaputt Posts: 3,227
    For me even if he came out and said 'Yea I doped' I'd still hold him in high esteem.

    Firstly for beating cancer as he did and secondly for sticking two fingers up at the French, especially Cofidis, cycling fraternity and pissing on their parade.

    At the end of the day doped or not he was still the best of the best.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Gazzaputt wrote:
    Firstly for beating cancer as he did and secondly for sticking two fingers up at the French, especially Cofidis, cycling fraternity and pissing on their parade.
    How did he piss on the French? ASO have made millions in TV rights sales from him, into the US and beyond. Armstrong's close with the French President.

    He only got uppity a couple of times with the French, first moving to Spain when the French started a bio passport (Moreau and Jalabert did the same, only to Switzerland) and then later when under pressure trying some anti-French stuff.
  • fleshtuxedo
    fleshtuxedo Posts: 1,858
    RichN95 wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:

    And where's the anger directed towards all the other dopers from the 90s and 00s, some of whom are held up as favourites by the same people who demonise Armstrong?

    No one else ruined the tour as a spectacle like Armstrong and the Postals though did they? I can barely remember one LA victory from another - it was generally just the same crazy situation of one team's domestiques being mysteriously able to kick the sh*t out of all LAs opposition day after day in the mountain stages, and then the inevitable coup de grace.

    My anger is about being denied seeing good races.

    You could say the same to some extent about Indurain I suppose, but he didn't wreck the race like Lance did
  • Kiwi Kranker
    Kiwi Kranker Posts: 416
    FleshTuxedo wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:

    And where's the anger directed towards all the other dopers from the 90s and 00s, some of whom are held up as favourites by the same people who demonise Armstrong?

    No one else ruined the tour as a spectacle like Armstrong and the Postals though did they? I can barely remember one LA victory from another - it was generally just the same crazy situation of one team's domestiques being mysteriously able to kick the sh*t out of all LAs opposition day after day in the mountain stages, and then the inevitable coup de grace.

    My anger is about being denied seeing good races.

    You could say the same to some extent about Indurain I suppose, but he didn't wreck the race like Lance did

    Are you serious?? He 'wrecked' the TdF?? Whatever. Do you honestly believe that if LA didnt exist you would not be talking about somebody else who 'wrecked' the race.

    Doping was/is out of control, if it wasnt LA it was definitely going to be (and probably there was as you mentioned) someone else trying to destroy the field through artificial means at that time.

    IMO the overall impact that he will have will ultimately be positive even if an elaborate house of cards collapses around him. There will be outrage of course (its a given) but the race will only suffer a minor hit as the audience has already been created.

    I am no LA fanboy but I am pragmatic enough to look at the bigger picture and I can see that the man has contributed in a positive way (possibly in all areas!) no matter what the outcome of the investigation will be.

    Ultimately, like most, I just want to see the best cyclists go head to head on a level footing.
    Scott Ransom 10

    Stumpy FSR Comp

    Wilier Izoard

    1994 Shogun Prairie Breaker Expert...ahhh yesssss

    'I didnt need those front teeth anyway..'
  • fleshtuxedo
    fleshtuxedo Posts: 1,858
    KK you've not understood my post.

    I was responding to RichN95 asking why people were outraged by LA rather than other dopers of the era. I was saying that I found the TDFs that were won by LA rubbish to watch. If LA and USPS had not been there, nobody's under any illusions that the alternate winners would necessarily have been clean, but at least it wouldn't have been the ritual slaughter that it was. What was unique was that an entire team were able to dominate the race in the way they did in the key mountain stages.

    I've watched every TDF since 1983 and can honestly say that for me 99-05 was an era of crap viewing.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Whereas 91-95 was abso-bloody-rivetting...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Kiwi Kranker
    Kiwi Kranker Posts: 416
    FleshTuxedo wrote:
    KK you've not understood my post.

    I was responding to RichN95 asking why people were outraged by LA rather than other dopers of the era. I was saying that I found the TDFs that were won by LA rubbish to watch. If LA and USPS had not been there, nobody's under any illusions that the alternate winners would necessarily have been clean, but at least it wouldn't have been the ritual slaughter that it was. What was unique was that an entire team were able to dominate the race in the way they did in the key mountain stages.

    I've watched every TDF since 1983 and can honestly say that for me 99-05 was an era of crap viewing.

    Ahh fair point, my apologies, what with the many pages its easy to get lost!
    Scott Ransom 10

    Stumpy FSR Comp

    Wilier Izoard

    1994 Shogun Prairie Breaker Expert...ahhh yesssss

    'I didnt need those front teeth anyway..'
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    DaveyL wrote:
    Whereas 91-95 was abso-bloody-rivetting...

    Just about the whole of the 90's was a washout

    I tend to think some of Armstrong's Tours were a lot better than any of that guff from the previous 10 years.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    1998 was guff? :shock:
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    andyp wrote:
    1998 was guff? :shock:

    There's always an exception.

    :wink:
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    Its all over.

    
    Citing anonymous sources, The Journal reported in a story posted on its website Friday that Landis has filed a suit under the federal False Claims Act. The law allows Americans to sue on behalf of the government alleging the government has been defrauded.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Its all over.

    
    Citing anonymous sources, The Journal reported in a story posted on its website Friday that Landis has filed a suit under the federal False Claims Act. The law allows Americans to sue on behalf of the government alleging the government has been defrauded.

    It's all over WHAT? Or should I ask WHAT'S all over?
    :? :? :?
  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    dennisn wrote:
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Its all over.

    
    Citing anonymous sources, The Journal reported in a story posted on its website Friday that Landis has filed a suit under the federal False Claims Act. The law allows Americans to sue on behalf of the government alleging the government has been defrauded.

    It's all over WHAT? Or should I ask WHAT'S all over?
    :? :? :?

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... l?r=sports

    Lance Armstrong and his closest supporters are named as defendants in a whistle-blower lawsuit Armstrong's former teammate Floyd Landis brought under the federal False Claims Act earlier this year but kept confidential until now.

    Landis, who has accused Armstrong of hardcore doping, named Armstrong and his corporate backers Bart Knaggs, Bill Stapleton, and Thom Weisel in the complaint, according to a person familiar with the situation, as well as Johan Bruyneel, the sport director who oversaw Armstrong's teams.

    The complaint was first reported by The Wall Street Journal. Details of the lawsuit remain under seal, but a person with knowledge of the case said defendants were recently notified of it by the Justice Department.

    Other defendants include Tailwind Sports Corporation, Tailwind LLC, Montgomery Sports, Inc., and Capital Sports and Entertainment - all corporate entities that backed Armstrong's teams over the past decade.

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