Tour De France 2010 - *May contain spoilers*

greg66_tri_v2.0

TailWindHome wrote:

Seems to me that for Contador to wait, Sanchez and Menchov would have had to wait also. That must have been an interesting conversation.

Contador should have set on Sanchez/ Menchovs wheels and let them dictate the pace.

FWIW, I think (a) AC must have know via the radios what was going on; and (b) if he had wanted to tell Menchov and Sanchez to wait, he could have, and they would have. From what I gather, he made no attempt to do so, and the three of them pushed as hard as they could.

I would think it has screwed AS royally. They rotated the effort (and picked up some others to help) whereas AS has no help on the chase. In fact, he had Vino wheel sucking, and presumably telling the DS precisely where AS was on the road so that AC could dose his effort accordingly.

ETA: This from the BBC:

Contador, who waited for Schleck when he crashed in the second stage to Spa, said he did not see the incident.

"I was told there was an incident but when I attacked I was not aware of it," the 27-year-old told reporters.

"I planned to attack anyway, and when I knew what had happened to him [Schleck] I was already ahead and racing," he said.

"Of course I know it's a delicate situation and could lead to debate, but I don't believe that to lose or win 30 seconds at this point will make you win or lose the Tour de France."

So "I didn't see, and when I heard about it I carried on. And hey - it's only 30 seconds!"

Yeah, that probably sounded better in his head than it does now.

tailwindhome

Greg66 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Seems to me that for Contador to wait, Sanchez and Menchov would have had to wait also. That must have been an interesting conversation.

Contador should have set on Sanchez/ Menchovs wheels and let them dictate the pace.

FWIW, I think (a) AC must have know via the radios what was going on; and (b) if he had wanted to tell Menchov and Sanchez to wait, he could have, and they would have. From what I gather, he made no attempt to do so, and the three of them pushed as hard as they could.

AC definitely knew what had happened. Any suggestion that he didn't would be silly.

Not sure that I agree that Menchov and Sanchez would have waited if AC did. As you say they worked just as hard as AC did to open the time gap with a sniff of 2nd spot in their nostrils. They could have waited. None of them did.

Them's the breaks.

Still believe the 'sporting' thing for AC to do would have been to sit on Menchov and Sanchez's wheel.

Gussio

"I planned to attack anyway, and when I knew what had happened to him [Schleck] I was already ahead and racing," he said.

Looked very much as if Berti was in no position to attack when Schleck headed up the road, moments before his chain came off....

DonDaddyD

(Looked to me like Contador was in no position to attack either. Also if Contador wins now the tour, it'll be mostly hollow...)

Anyway...

Whether he should have been waited for or not, Schleck had me clapping at his sheer awesomeness as soon as that chain came back on.

Awesome, I could see him being everyones favourite underdog.

shouldbeinbed

IT'S A RACE!!!!

I'm not fussed about either of them but I can't abide whining sportsmen & I might have had a tad of sympathy if Cancellara hadn't fixed it in week 1 to allow Schleck to recover from falling off.

always_tyred

shouldbeinbed wrote:

IT'S A RACE!!!!

I'm not fussed about either of them but I can't abide whining sportsmen & I might have had a tad of sympathy if Cancellara hadn't fixed it in week 1 to allow Schleck to recover from falling off.

You must have missed the first 95 episodes of "Le Tour". There's quite a lot of history there. What AC did today was something akin to bowling directly at an unprotected Australian's head.

Sure, he'll win now, but I do wonder what it will do for the inter-team politics in the peloton. What goes around comes around.

singlespeedexplosif

What AC did today was something akin to bowling directly at an unprotected Australian's head.

something to be applauded, then?

always_tyred

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

What AC did today was something akin to bowling directly at an unprotected Australian's head.

something to be applauded, then?

Sure, but its not proved to be a good long term strategy, has it? Now Australians, West Indians, Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans all bowl at Englishmens' heads.

The analogy might be wearing a bit thin now.

cjcp

Greg66 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Seems to me that for Contador to wait, Sanchez and Menchov would have had to wait also. That must have been an interesting conversation.

Contador should have set on Sanchez/ Menchovs wheels and let them dictate the pace.

FWIW, I think (a) AC must have know via the radios what was going on; and (b) if he had wanted to tell Menchov and Sanchez to wait, he could have, and they would have. From what I gather, he made no attempt to do so, and the three of them pushed as hard as they could.

I would think it has screwed AS royally. They rotated the effort (and picked up some others to help) whereas AS has no help on the chase. In fact, he had Vino wheel sucking, and presumably telling the DS precisely where AS was on the road so that AC could dose his effort accordingly.

ETA: This from the BBC:

Contador, who waited for Schleck when he crashed in the second stage to Spa, said he did not see the incident.

"I was told there was an incident but when I attacked I was not aware of it," the 27-year-old told reporters.

"I planned to attack anyway, and when I knew what had happened to him [Schleck] I was already ahead and racing," he said.

"Of course I know it's a delicate situation and could lead to debate, but I don't believe that to lose or win 30 seconds at this point will make you win or lose the Tour de France."

So "I didn't see, and when I heard about it I carried on. And hey - it's only 30 seconds!"

Yeah, that probably sounded better in his head than it does now.

+1.

IIRC, Hamilton slowed the leaders down on Luz Ardiden in 2003 when the musette brought down Armstrong (and Mayo) when he was in yellow. Contador could have done the same. Even if he didn't, he would have known AS had a problem given how quickly AS shot off (he'd ridden a bike for a while now, and should now when a chain's off).

I'm not sure AC soft-pedalled: AS was going like a train when he was chasing them. If AC was soft-pedalling, AS would have caught him very quickly.

Shame if the Tour is decided on this. Two hopes remain: (i) AS attacks AC relentlessly because he's got nothing to lose, and (ii) AS is going to surprise the world by proving that he can TT.

tailwindhome

cjcp wrote:

Shame if the Tour is decided on this. Two hopes remain: (i) AS attacks AC relentlessly because he's got nothing to lose, and (ii) AS is going to surprise the world by proving that he can TT.

or AC drops AS on the Tourmalet on Thursday and it's all irrelevant.

has LA twittered yet?

also I had read somewhere that AC is going to Saxobank next year.......

Aguila

It was an absolute cont's trick wot he did. 8)

cjcp

TailWindHome wrote:

cjcp wrote:

Shame if the Tour is decided on this. Two hopes remain: (i) AS attacks AC relentlessly because he's got nothing to lose, and (ii) AS is going to surprise the world by proving that he can TT.

or AC drops AS on the Tourmalet on Thursday and it's all irrelevant.

has LA twittered yet?

also I had read somewhere that AC is going to Saxobank next year.......

I think Saxo Bank are disbanding after this year.

tailwindhome

cjcp wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

also I had read somewhere that AC is going to Saxobank next year.......

I think Saxo Bank are disbanding after this year.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... =#16327679

Eurosport saying Schlek and Contador could be on the same team next year? WTF?

it didn't sound right to me either

jonginge

le blaireau says, "meh"

jonginge

TailWindHome wrote:

cjcp wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

also I had read somewhere that AC is going to Saxobank next year.......

I think Saxo Bank are disbanding after this year.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... =#16327679

Eurosport saying Schlek and Contador could be on the same team next year? WTF?

it didn't sound right to me either

That would never work. Too many chiefs...

Riis has found new sponsors:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4864/ ... onsor.aspx

stuaff

There are multiple previous examples of the convention for title contenders to wait for the mailjot jaune in the event of him suffering a problem like that. As CJ's already mentioned, Jan Ullrich didn't attack LA back in 2003 after that crash on Luz Ardiden caused by a spectator, he let him recover. AC claims to be a friend of AS. He was in prime position to see exactly what happened, and he did. He attacked anyway. He's more than capable of winning fair and square, the TT would have swung it for him anyway (providing he kept the gap to AS down beforehand), but he does this. Then he claims he didn't see it. BS, like Roger Federer (another alleged Mr Nice Guy) basically claiming his loss at Wimbledon was somehow all his fault, not Tomas Berdych being the better player on the day. May karma give AC multiple punctures, or a bit of carbon where it hurts.

Edit: typo corrected. Thanks Jon!

jonginge

I think you AC in your last sentence.

I would wager that not waiting happens more often than not. Ask Chavanel on stage 3. Ask Evans in the Vuelta last year.

suzyb

StuAff wrote:

There are multiple previous examples of the convention for title contenders to wait for the mailjot jaune in the event of him suffering a problem like that. As CJ's already mentioned, Jan Ullrich didn't attack LA back in 2003 after that crash on Luz Ardiden caused by a spectator, he let him recover. AC claims to be a friend of AS. He was in prime position to see exactly what happened, and he did. He attacked anyway. He's more than capable of winning fair and square, the TT would have swung it for him anyway (providing he kept the gap to AS down beforehand), but he does this. Then he claims he didn't see it. BS, like Roger Federer (another alleged Mr Nice Guy) basically claiming his loss at Wimbledon was somehow all his fault, not Tomas Berdych being the better player on the day. May karma give AS multiple punctures, or a bit of carbon where it hurts.

Yeah that blew my support of Federer out the window.

"I have a sore back that's why I lost" :roll: Yeah right, I think it's more a case of sore loser.

andy83

StuAff wrote:

There are multiple previous examples of the convention for title contenders to wait for the mailjot jaune in the event of him suffering a problem like that. As CJ's already mentioned, Jan Ullrich didn't attack LA back in 2003 after that crash on Luz Ardiden caused by a spectator, he let him recover. AC claims to be a friend of AS. He was in prime position to see exactly what happened, and he did. He attacked anyway. He's more than capable of winning fair and square, the TT would have swung it for him anyway (providing he kept the gap to AS down beforehand), but he does this. Then he claims he didn't see it. BS, like Roger Federer (another alleged Mr Nice Guy) basically claiming his loss at Wimbledon was somehow all his fault, not Tomas Berdych being the better player on the day. May karma give AS multiple punctures, or a bit of carbon where it hurts.

couldnt agree more

tennis is prob the sport i follow the most outside of football and cycling and im a massive nadal fan, very gracious and an awesome player, fed is a great player but i cant stand his attitude in defeat.

AC knew what was going on today, he was absolutly flying and no sign of soft pedelling, AS was on the attach and saxo got him in a good position today only for him to lose valuable seconds, also vino was a massive help to AC by not helping AS at all

stuaff

JonGinge wrote:

I think you AC in your last sentence.

I would wager that not waiting happens more often than not. Ask Chavanel on stage 3. Ask Evans in the Vuelta last year.

Too true. But it's one thing being up the road when it happens, another when you see the other guy get in to trouble right there. And you can bet if the boot was on the other foot, Bertie would be bitching away (just like he was last year about LA).

Christophe3967

Chris Boardman's view was that AS chose not to have a chainguard and, as such, has to accept that he runs the risk of his chain coming off. Whatever the rights and wrongs, AC must have seen very clearly what happened to AS and still (instinctively) took off, rather than backing himself in a straight fight, and prove himself to be unarguably the best all round bike rider of all. And even if he really didn't see it , he would have known pretty quickly and could have throttled back. It rather removes the gloss, assuming he now goes on to win.

roger_merriman

Christophe3967 wrote:

Chris Boardman's view was that AS chose not to have a chainguard and, as such, has to accept that he runs the risk of his chain coming off. Whatever the rights and wrongs, AC must have seen very clearly what happened to AS and still (instinctively) took off, rather than backing himself in a straight fight, and prove himself to be unarguably the best all round bike rider of all. And even if he really didn't see it , he would have known pretty quickly and could have throttled back. It rather removes the gloss, assuming he now goes on to win.

chain fix is a 5sec job though, are you going to wait for every thing? it is a bike race after all?

don't get me wrong watching I felt very sorry for him. but the point is a race, and he had just slipped around the side catching Contador off guard. at least the play back looked that way.

should make the race a bit more interesting any way!

Agent57

roger merriman wrote:

chain fix is a 5sec job though, are you going to wait for every thing? it is a bike race after all?

5 seconds? Well, all the more reason just to sit up and wait then, I reckon. Not like he was waiting for Schleck to fix a puncture. Instead, he used the opportunity to take advantage. On the flat, maybe not so big a deal; but up a steep hill? It's just not cricket.

jonginge

StuAff wrote:

JonGinge wrote:

I think you AC in your last sentence.

I would wager that not waiting happens more often than not. Ask Chavanel on stage 3. Ask Evans in the Vuelta last year.

Too true. But it's one thing being up the road when it happens, another when you see the other guy get in to trouble right there. And you can bet if the boot was on the other foot, Bertie would be bitching away (just like he was last year about LA).

Erm, already happened on stage 3. Cancellara put the boot in when most of the favourites were delayed by Frank Schleck's crash...

My memory may be selective but I'm fairly sure AC let his legs do the talking on Verbier rather than bitch to the press after the stage to Grand Motte last year


http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/fir ... uly-7-2009

Edit: shame we can't see the video of contador while they spend the 20s looking at AS trying to put his chain on. During that time Menchov and Sanchez catch up with him. Not sure that would have happened if he'd been going full gas (hadn't happened previously in this tour).

roger_merriman

Agent57 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

chain fix is a 5sec job though, are you going to wait for every thing? it is a bike race after all?

5 seconds? Well, all the more reason just to sit up and wait then, I reckon. Not like he was waiting for Schleck to fix a puncture. Instead, he used the opportunity to take advantage. On the flat, maybe not so big a deal; but up a steep hill? It's just not cricket.

because it's a race? schleck made the move, but managed to fumble a gear change or what ever, and condor used it. though I dough he knew how much time schleck had lost. at least at first.

chains coming off aren't acts of gods they tend to be made by the rider.

DonDaddyD

Why would someone in a race choose not to use a chain guard (thing that stops the chain from coming off)?

I heard Schleck prefers to have one.

Whatever the outcome this will make Schleck a tougher rider.

always_tyred

Timeline - AS attack. Chain comes off. AC attacks. Other GC contenders HAVE to respond to AC's attack. The Astana rider who had already followed was Vino. The footage from in front bears out that timeline.

I don't see the debate here. It was dirty.

The difference with early stages was (a) the numbers - half the field came down on deisel on that descent and it would have made a mockery of the race to press on at that stage (b) the timeline - a mechanical during an attack, (i.e. the field was full gas over the cobbles with the aim of creating time gaps, earlier in the tour) is not the same as attacking responsive to a mechanical.

There was a stage of the giro a few years ago where the leader attacked and 10 minutes later snapped his chain, when the breakaway was already spread all over the mountain. He had no support and lost the stage waiting for his team car. No one else COULD stop. Just the same as Armstrong flatting on the cobbles.

Yesterday does not fall under that category and its instructive that the best "support" that AC has had is "well, I can see both sides" diplomacy. That won't be reflected in tactics used against him later in this tour or his career though.

greg66_tri_v2.0

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why would someone in a race choose not to use a chain guard (thing that stops the chain from coming off)?

I heard Schleck prefers to have one.

Whatever the outcome this will make Schleck a tougher rider.

Notwithstanding what fat Dad-lookalike Chris Boardman said, I'm pretty sure Schleck did have one. There's some pics I've seen on another cycling forum that suggest that all the Saxo Bank riders have them. Perhaps they aren't failsafe.

The problem for AS is that today's stage has 60lm of downhill and flat after the final climb, so his chances of putting time into AC are about zero. He had to expend a lot of effort yesterday chasing - more than AC had to in his lead group, sharing the pacemaking - so he may not have the gas today and tomorrow that he had been banking on.

I suspect a few riders are targeting Tourmalet for a glory win, so that won't be an easy climb to control.

FWIW, I think AC had the win in the bag already, and I'm not really convinced (despite the talk talk) that Schleck himself believes that he has enough all-round ability to beat AC in the Tour. Yet.

Agent57

roger merriman wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

chain fix is a 5sec job though, are you going to wait for every thing? it is a bike race after all?

5 seconds? Well, all the more reason just to sit up and wait then, I reckon. Not like he was waiting for Schleck to fix a puncture. Instead, he used the opportunity to take advantage. On the flat, maybe not so big a deal; but up a steep hill? It's just not cricket.

because it's a race? schleck made the move, but managed to fumble a gear change or what ever, and condor used it. though I dough he knew how much time schleck had lost. at least at first.

chains coming off aren't acts of gods they tend to be made by the rider.

Well, Contador seems to accept that it wasn't cricket. I'm inferring that from the fact he's made an apology.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_s ... 837033.stm

tailwindhome

JonGinge wrote:

StuAff wrote:

And you can bet if the boot was on the other foot, Bertie would be bitching away (just like he was last year about LA).

Erm, already happened on stage 3. Cancellara put the boot in when most of the favourites were delayed by Frank Schleck's crash...

My memory may be selective but I'm fairly sure AC let his legs do the talking on Verbier rather than ***** to the press after the stage to Grand Motte last year

I have no recollection of Bertie doing any bitching about LA on last years tour

Seemed to me like the bitching was coming from LA via twitter

Always Tyred wrote:

Timeline - AS attack. Chain comes off. AC attacks. Other GC contenders HAVE to respond to AC's attack. The Astana rider who had already followed was Vino. The footage from in front bears out that timeline.

I don't see the debate here. It was dirty.

It was dirty

But not entirely AC's doing, I don't agree your interpretation in bold. I watched it live and again on the highlight show and am convinced that there was a delay when just after AC goes past AS when he looks round to see what happened. Menchov and Sanchez catch him and off they go. No doubt during this 'delay' he had his DS telling him what happened/ screaming in his ear to put the boot in.

On other forum's there is a school of thought that AS fluffed a gear change...and tough luck basically

Kate Carraway on GMTV wrote:

Is learning to maintain your bike not part of learning to ride